Great news! Over 20 dead in Orlando Night Club!

[fast]

Whether or not I know someone who supports ISIS is irrelevant to the basic logical fact that supporting ISIS does not make one a muslim just like support for the Catholic Church does not make one a catholic.

That's the greatest example of a distinction without a difference I've ever experienced. Did I miss the sarcasm?

Would you reword that?

 

[RavenSky]

Listening to the FBI Director press conference right now. In my opinion, Omar Mateen was not an "ISIS sympathizer" or a "radicalized Islamist" so much as he was a violent fucktard looking for an excuse to do what he did.

He was investigated by FBI multiple times. At various times, including on Saturday night, he has expressed allegiance to ISIS and also to violent Islamic groups that are sworn enemies of ISIS. He expressed allegiance to the Boston Bombers and to the Florida suicide bomber, none of whom were ISIS.

He also stated (while he was still married) that he wished the police would raid his house while his wife and child were there so he could have a reason to do something like this.

This guy was raised as a Muslim - there is no question about that - but he was too ignorant to even know the difference between the various radical Islamic groups. He just wanted to kill people and needed a "cause" (a/k/a an excuse).

Easy access to guns were the problem here... again. Not his ideology.

 

[iolo]

.

And guns don't kill people. The shooter could have easily used a knife to kill 20 people.

Not a hope, lad - someone would have kicked him where it hurt, broken his arm, or been otherwise uncivil. Nutters kill with guns and the scumbag NRA sees they are provided.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Listening to the FBI Director press conference right now. In my opinion, Omar Mateen was not an "ISIS sympathizer" or a "radicalized Islamist" so much as he was a violent fucktard looking for an excuse to do what he did.

He was investigated by FBI multiple times. At various times, including on Saturday night, he has expressed allegiance to ISIS and also to violent Islamic groups that are sworn enemies of ISIS. He expressed allegiance to the Boston Bombers and to the Florida suicide bomber, none of whom were ISIS.

He also stated (while he was still married) that he wished the police would raid his house while his wife and child were there so he could have a reason to do something like this.

This guy was raised as a Muslim - there is no question about that - but he was too ignorant to even know the difference between the various radical Islamic groups. He just wanted to kill people and needed a "cause" (a/k/a an excuse).

Easy access to guns were the problem here... again. Not his ideology.

I wouldn't give ideology that much of a pass here. There needs to be some backing to his alleged hatred of gays (I say alleged mainly because it is early in the investigation, though definitely looks like he didn't like gays).

.

And guns don't kill people. The shooter could have easily used a knife to kill 20 people.

Not a hope, lad - someone would have kicked him where it hurt, broken his arm, or been otherwise uncivil. Nutters kill with guns and the scumbag NRA sees they are provided.

You are newish here, so I'll let it slide. My post was primarily in response to the earlier thread about the shooting of a singing in Orlando and particularly in response to what a couple posters had commented.

 

[funinspace]

.

And guns don't kill people. The shooter could have easily used a knife to kill 20 people.

Not a hope, lad - someone would have kicked him where it hurt, broken his arm, or been otherwise uncivil. Nutters kill with guns and the scumbag NRA sees they are provided.

You are newish here, so I'll let it slide. My post was primarily in response to the earlier thread about the shooting of a singing in Orlando and particularly in response to what a couple posters had commented.

If only Americans were truly allowed their 2nd Amendment rights!!! Then Americans could carry fully auto Uzis with Teflon coated bullets, then you'd see bad guys taken out for real!!!

 

[barbos]

Listening to the FBI Director press conference right now. In my opinion, Omar Mateen was not an "ISIS sympathizer" or a "radicalized Islamist" so much as he was a violent fucktard looking for an excuse to do what he did.

He was investigated by FBI multiple times. At various times, including on Saturday night, he has expressed allegiance to ISIS and also to violent Islamic groups that are sworn enemies of ISIS. He expressed allegiance to the Boston Bombers and to the Florida suicide bomber, none of whom were ISIS.

And they are all violent fucktards looking for an excuse to do what they do.

 

[RavenSky]

I wouldn't give ideology that much of a pass here. There needs to be some backing to his alleged hatred of gays (I say alleged mainly because it is early in the investigation, though definitely looks like he didn't like gays).

I do agree on that. Ideology helps create the hate. Ideologues help fuel the hate. But in this case it sounds like an unfocused ignorant hate looking for an ideology to fit.

I'm making a distinction between this and someone who is part of an actual organized radical group. This guy is on par with those christian nuts that bomb or shoot up clinics. Their ideology may be a basis for their hate, and may fuel their hate and may even be the excuse for their hate - but they act on their own.

He did travel twice to Saudi Arabia... our "allies"

 

[abaddon]

And they are all violent fucktards looking for an excuse to do what they do.

Who is "they" and what do "they" do?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wouldn't give ideology that much of a pass here. There needs to be some backing to his alleged hatred of gays (I say alleged mainly because it is early in the investigation, though definitely looks like he didn't like gays).

I do agree on that. Ideology helps create the hate. Ideologues help fuel the hate. But in this case it sounds like an unfocused ignorant hate looking for an ideology to fit.

I'm making a distinction between this and someone who is part of an actual organized radical group. This guy is on par with those christian nuts that bomb or shoot up clinics. Their ideology may be a basis for their hate, and may fuel their hate and may even be the excuse for their hate - but they act on their own.

Minor difference is this guy committed a massacre. I'd say this was only equal on the level of Dylan Roof. The others, the tolls were no where near this high.

He did travel twice to Saudi Arabia... our "allies"

Higher fuel efficiency is unamerican.

- - - Updated - - -

Listening to the FBI Director press conference right now. In my opinion, Omar Mateen was not an "ISIS sympathizer" or a "radicalized Islamist" so much as he was a violent fucktard looking for an excuse to do what he did.

He was investigated by FBI multiple times. At various times, including on Saturday night, he has expressed allegiance to ISIS and also to violent Islamic groups that are sworn enemies of ISIS. He expressed allegiance to the Boston Bombers and to the Florida suicide bomber, none of whom were ISIS.

And they are all violent fucktards looking for an excuse to do what they do.

Yes, all of the assholes that go out and shoot people or blow up bombs are fucktards. The ones that actually perpetuate this actual violence. They shouldn't be confused with the pussy ass panzies that talk big revolution because a black guy is President or storm an empty Wildlife Refuge armed to the teeth (and write novels gleefully about killing Government representatives).

 

[laughing dog]

Basic reasoning . . . .

Please stop using terms you don't understand. No one here is saying this large scale murderer is not a Muslim. Or that he was a violent homophobic and Muslim murderer. The issue that you seem to be incapable of understanding is that support of ISIS does not mean one is necessarily a Muslim.

 

[iolo]

.

And guns don't kill people. The shooter could have easily used a knife to kill 20 people.

Not a hope, lad - someone would have kicked him where it hurt, broken his arm, or been otherwise uncivil. Nutters kill with guns and the scumbag NRA sees they are provided.

You are newish here, so I'll let it slide. My post was primarily in response to the earlier thread about the shooting of a singing in Orlando and particularly in response to what a couple posters had commented.

If only Americans were truly allowed their 2nd Amendment rights!!! Then Americans could carry fully auto Uzis with Teflon coated bullets, then you'd see bad guys taken out for real!!!

The racists would wipe out one another and everyone else, and the Natives Americans could have the place back. Good plan.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

At least one article I read said the guy was bipolar. That would explain a lot.

 

[iolo]

At least one article I read said the guy was bipolar. That would explain a lot.

Good point. The trouble with this sort of thing is that it is horrible, and the unthinking simply fit it in to their prejudices and rant. The important question is how you stop such dreadful things happening, and in other countries it seems obvious that the easy availability of guns - rather than religious war - is the way to approach it.

 

[repoman]

pretty harrowing:

 

[Trausti]

Nothing to do with Islam.

 

[barbos]

At least one article I read said the guy was bipolar. That would explain a lot.

Being gay would explain a lot too.

 

[RavenSky]

I do agree on that. Ideology helps create the hate. Ideologues help fuel the hate. But in this case it sounds like an unfocused ignorant hate looking for an ideology to fit.

I'm making a distinction between this and someone who is part of an actual organized radical group. This guy is on par with those christian nuts that bomb or shoot up clinics. Their ideology may be a basis for their hate, and may fuel their hate and may even be the excuse for their hate - but they act on their own.

Minor difference is this guy committed a massacre. I'd say this was only equal on the level of Dylan Roof. The others, the tolls were no where near this high.

And that goes back to choice of weapon. Dylann Roof used a semi-automatic gun (though not an AR-15 iirc).

So basically, ideology may fuel the violence but it is the choice of weapon that increases the death toll... which was my point to begin with

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Nothing to do with Islam.

Curious, what is the source of people that loudly support Trump's plan to kill family members of ISIS and terrorists? Dancing and Rock 'n Roll were considered anti-Christian in the 50's and 60's in the US. Today, not so much. Slavery was both condoned and condemned by the Bible, depending on who you asked. Did Christianity (the Bible) change or did the people evolve?

Yes, there are Muslims who are quite bent on hating the US and use their religion to justify the hate and violence.

Buddhism is extraordinarily anti-violence, yet even that has been used by some to justify the unjustifiable.

The objection to your and others wanting to blame this on "Islam" is that the source of the conflict is the people who want to use something to justify what they want to believe. No one raised Dylan Roof's religion when he massacred people who involved him in their religious study. In fact, the religion of white mass murderers is almost never raised.

 

[jab]

To address the last, first - I know how it is spelled. I am mocking the speech patterns and spelling of those who get their hair on fire anytime anyone with dark skin and/or a "funny" name is the topic - hence the quotations.

The number and types of guns and ammunition matters because it happens with alarming frequency in this country, and we do absolutely nothing about it. As long as guns exist, there will never be a 100% fool-proof means of preventing tragedies like this, but the lack of political will to even try (as other countries do try) is appalling

As much as I am for gun control, this case is not about gun control. Determined terrorist will find a way to kill a lot of people regardless of gun control.

It's about both. And about religiously fuelled homophobia.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Minor difference is this guy committed a massacre. I'd say this was only equal on the level of Dylan Roof. The others, the tolls were no where near this high.

And that goes back to choice of weapon. Dylann Roof used a semi-automatic gun (though not an AR-15 iirc).

So basically, ideology may fuel the violence but it is the choice of weapon that increases the death toll... which was my point to begin with

Yes. Having a weapon that is capable of such violence in the public realm is unacceptable. However, the NRA won in the 80's and 90's regarding how armed to the teeth Americans could become and honestly, they should be happy that anyone, even those suspected of being against Americans and potentially dangerous enough to kill, have the Constitutionally protected right to bear arms that can relatively easily produce such horrors.