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Merged Greenland is part of NATO via Denmark

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From the end of WW2 NATO has been a "let USA pay for Europe's defence"-club. It's a mystery why American presidents have been so cool about it until now.
I know, right? All the US ever got out of it was the ability to completely dominate the world, like the British Empire before them, only more so, and with nuclear fucking weapons.

The Brittish empire was a vanity project. The Brits had a couple of fun centuries. But the empire was always a net loss. The reason the empire fell apart was because Great Britain couldn't afford it anymore, (because of the the cost of winning the world wars).

USA is in a similar position. It's now the world's greatest superpower. But there's less benefit to the US economy than the cost of swinging around it's large penis. It's a vanity project. Ie, Americans get to have the lovely feeling of creating world peace, and getting to feel being the saviour of the world. That's the transaction. But there's little economic benefit to USA from it. There's a little. But nowhere near what it costs.

Bearing in mind that "Europe" wasn't really a thing before the Treaty of Rome, and that the EEC, and now the EU, still doesn't have a defence role - Without NATO, the EU members would each have their own entirely separate defence forces, and would be incapable of wielding any military power whatsoever - unless they built a European army.

There is no European army, navy, or airforce; Just individual national forces.

And the US has kept these forces small and weak, by integrating them into a NATO that is dominated by American forces. No European nation could afford to match the US singlehandedly, and there is no multilateral force except NATO itself.

The US pays for the defence of Europe, and in return all she gets is to rule the world.

Yes. Agreed. And now Trump wants to change it, so that Europe forms a united military force, to help carry the burden. Ie, shares in ruling the world.

It's not the one-sided act of charity that Trump and his neocon backers would have you believe.

Isn't it? What's the benefit of ruling the world? Certainly not financial. It's mostly a cost. It's mostly vanity. It's prestige.

If the EU does decide to build an integrated and unified European armed force, then the US goes from having two foreign peers (China and Russia), who can challenge her domination of the world, to having three, and her global influence starts to be increasingly constrained to the Americas.

A European Army would save the US a lot of money, but could not be required, nor expected, to act in the US interest.

This narrow, small-minded and shortsighted attitude, that knows the price of everything but the value of nothing, will (perhaps) save a lot of dollars, while literally costing Americans the world.

Why is it small-minded and shortsighted? If anything, isn't it a more long term solution? Putting all ones eggs in one basket is hardly a sign of intelligence.

No, it won't act in US interests. But why would USA continue to act in European interests? You seem to worry about what a militarily dominant Europe might do to USA. But you're, for some reason, not worried what a militarily dominant USA might do to Europe. Why? Here's a hypothesis... USA might gnab Greenland. Ever thought about that?
I think the empire has done quite well. We got to be the world's reserve currency which is like the best credit card terms ever. We're also a magnet for the world's talent which seems to be working out for us. Our purchasing power gives us an ace in the hole when it comes to trade negotiations should we opt to use it. None of this happens with our big wagging penis of a military. We are 4% of the world's population and 24% of the world's GDP.
Is Trump pissing it all away? Gold is over $5300 an ounce now and silver just took off.
And in spite of how offended crybaby pacifists like your humble narrator may be when we use our military for less than noble reasons, other governments are very much watching the execution of these military operations and taking note. You can bet your bottom dollar China is rethinking quantity versus quality in their own military.
 
Greenland for all prctical purposes is now a part of USA, whatever the EU may think. Europe's problem is not Russia but USA and Nato. It is because US has bases and missiles in Europe that Russia is inimical to Europe. Remove that, remove the US dictated sanctions against Russia, then Russia will have no problem with Europe. A European NATO makes more sense than an American NATO. Ukraine's problems too started with its tilt towards US. Now Trump wants Ukraine to give Donbas to Russia. US is not Ukraine's friend. Ukrainians were fooled by US. Lost so many lives, and displaced so many people.
 
Greenland for all prctical purposes is now a part of USA, whatever the EU may think.
This is simply wrong on every possible level.

Geographically and linguistically, Greenland is kinda Canada-ish.

Politically and economically it's Danish.

The US has a very minor interest in the place; During the Cold War it was a good place for early warning installations, secret nuclear missile silos, and front-line fighter bases, and since the 1950s the US military has had an agreement that they can base as much of that stuff there as they want. How much they want turns out to be 'almost none' - in the 1980s they had about 10,000 military personnel there, across a dozen or more bases. They could go back to those numbers tomorrow, without asking anyone's permission, based on the 1951 agreement. In fact, they have one base (Pertuffik), with an establishment of about 150 (presumably mostly radar operators and technicians who seriously pissed off the CO at their previous posting).

Greenland, "for all practical purposes", is as much a part of the USA as Denmark is.
 
The Brittish empire was a vanity project. The Brits had a couple of fun centuries. But the empire was always a net loss. The reason the empire fell apart was because Great Britain couldn't afford it anymore, (because of the the cost of winning the world wars).

USA is in a similar position. It's now the world's greatest superpower. But there's less benefit to the US economy than the cost of swinging around it's large penis. It's a vanity project. Ie, Americans get to have the lovely feeling of creating world peace, and getting to feel being the saviour of the world. That's the transaction. But there's little economic benefit to USA from it. There's a little. But nowhere near what it costs.
I agree, ruling the world is not particularly profitable. But I am bemused as to why you think it should be, and why you imagine that economic benefit is the only kind of benefit worth having.

Everyone seems to have become crazy economic rationalists, who demand that everything must either be profitable or be discarded. This is inhuman.

I'll quote Margaret Thatcher, "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money".

If something isn't profitable it's unsustainable. In a free market economy with competing nations, any actor who isn't laser focused on economic sustainability (which also is environmental sustainability) will eventually become dominated by those who are. There's a current pattern around the world where small countries tend to have liberal economic laws and a society continually updating and improving it's support for it's companies. The tiny Nordic countries are excellent examples. Why are these so good at optimising it's economic policies? Because we have to or we'd be fucked. Any slip up and we'll be sucked into Germanies economic dominance and we'd render ourselves irrelevant.

To sum up, if your world domination isn't profitable you will, eventually, stop being dominant. And whoever focused on profit will instead dominate the world. I'd rather it wasn't China. So I think the West (or rather democratic nations of the world should get our act together and focus on economic sustainability.



What is the value of being rich, if you live like a penniless bum because you hoard your money and only spend it on absolute necessities, and invest the rest toward the sole objective of getting richer still?

Sure. Life is more fun if we're short-sighted and don't care about the future of the world or our nations. Life is short and all that. I just think that investing in our future prosperity is worth it.

The British imperials of the C19th understood this; They wanted to turn a profit, but never at the expense of making things drab and utilitarian. When London needed a way to pump shit into the Thames estuary and away from the city, they didn't build this:

It's because the London sewage system was made from cast iron. There's very little extra cost to make cast iron decorative. But once we started making stuff out of welded steel plates, girders and concrete then making it decorative becomes prohibitively expensive.

Cast iron needs to be painted or it'll rust. Painting it in decorative colours and patterns is not much more expensive than in boring colours. I think red was the cheapest colour to paint. Followed by green. Stainless steel does not need to be painted.



They built this:


...and the world was a better place for it.

It made no economic sense. Bjt then, tbe idea that economic sense is the only sense, or the only sense worth having, makes no sense at all.

The reason Great Britain created their empire was because they wanted to ensure the UK factories had continued access to the natural resources their factories needed. They were worried other imperial nations would use monopolies as leverage to blackmail the UK out of stuff. Which the UK took advantage of, as often as they could. The historian Dominic Sandbrook aptly called Great Britain the Putin of the 19'th century.

After WW1 all the imperial nations simply agreed they wouldn't limit eachothers access to resources, which killed the need for continual expansion of empires. So they stopped. Germany and Italy just didn't get that memo.

After WW2 and the world agreed on the UN and open and free markets everywhere there was absolutely no need to have empires at all. Which is why the British empire just evaporated in the 1950'ies and 1960'ies. It was way cheaper to just buy the same products from their former colonies than it was to run the colonies.

Trump's tariffs is an attempt to turn the clock back to before the world wars. But, you may have noticed that other countries aren't hitting eachother with tariffs. So it's just stupid. All Trump is doing with his tariffs and agressive expansion plans is to give the rest of the world incentives to ally against USA. Which, btw, is already happening.

So yeah... empires are dead. It's an old way of seeing the world.
 
Greenland for all prctical purposes is now a part of USA, whatever the EU may think. Europe's problem is not Russia but USA and Nato. It is because US has bases and missiles in Europe that Russia is inimical to Europe. Remove that, remove the US dictated sanctions against Russia, then Russia will have no problem with Europe. A European NATO makes more sense than an American NATO. Ukraine's problems too started with its tilt towards US. Now Trump wants Ukraine to give Donbas to Russia. US is not Ukraine's friend. Ukrainians were fooled by US. Lost so many lives, and displaced so many people.

Amigo! I really enjoy most of your posts. But you really are on the Russian bandwagon. Do you have access to western news? I'd encourage you to read European news. But the sanctions will go away once Russia stops invading European countries. Trump wants business with Russia period. So do most of Europe btw. I'm not a Trump fan in the least. But he's been very transparent here. Make a peace with Russia, stop the invasion, and the money will flow to Russia. Trump desperately wants to build a Trump Tower in Russia. Ukraine has offered full peace with Russia if they stop the invasion today. But Russia has said no over and over.
 
The Brittish empire was a vanity project. The Brits had a couple of fun centuries. But the empire was always a net loss. The reason the empire fell apart was because Great Britain couldn't afford it anymore, (because of the the cost of winning the world wars).

USA is in a similar position. It's now the world's greatest superpower. But there's less benefit to the US economy than the cost of swinging around it's large penis. It's a vanity project. Ie, Americans get to have the lovely feeling of creating world peace, and getting to feel being the saviour of the world. That's the transaction. But there's little economic benefit to USA from it. There's a little. But nowhere near what it costs.
I agree, ruling the world is not particularly profitable. But I am bemused as to why you think it should be, and why you imagine that economic benefit is the only kind of benefit worth having.

Everyone seems to have become crazy economic rationalists, who demand that everything must either be profitable or be discarded. This is inhuman.

I'll quote Margaret Thatcher, "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money".

If something isn't profitable it's unsustainable. In a free market economy with competing nations, any actor who isn't laser focused on economic sustainability (which also is environmental sustainability) will eventually become dominated by those who are. There's a current pattern around the world where small countries tend to have liberal economic laws and a society continually updating and improving it's support for it's companies. The tiny Nordic countries are excellent examples. Why are these so good at optimising it's economic policies? Because we have to or we'd be fucked. Any slip up and we'll be sucked into Germanies economic dominance and we'd render ourselves irrelevant.

To sum up, if your world domination isn't profitable you will, eventually, stop being dominant. And whoever focused on profit will instead dominate the world. I'd rather it wasn't China. So I think the West (or rather democratic nations of the world should get our act together and focus on economic sustainability.
That is the thing, capitalism is useless without socialism. Capitalism and socialism need each other. Given not too much time, capitalism will eventually put all the money into the coffers of three people. Socialism will fall apart due to inefficiencies. Together, they work as a check that decent minimalist services are there for the people, while providing enough economic elasticity to allow growth and efficiencies.
Greenland for all prctical purposes is now a part of USA, whatever the EU may think. Europe's problem is not Russia but USA and Nato. It is because US has bases and missiles in Europe that Russia is inimical to Europe. Remove that, remove the US dictated sanctions against Russia, then Russia will have no problem with Europe. A European NATO makes more sense than an American NATO. Ukraine's problems too started with its tilt towards US. Now Trump wants Ukraine to give Donbas to Russia. US is not Ukraine's friend. Ukrainians were fooled by US. Lost so many lives, and displaced so many people.
You covered a lot of ground there, and didn't seem to hit a single target. The US has existing rights with Denmark to put a base anywhere on Greenland, so why isn't Trump going that very very easy route? Because Trump is looking to use it in a manner that is not in Europe's interest. The US was an ally of Ukraine. Trump is working for the other side unfortunately. Ukraine wasn't fooled by the US, they were betrayed by Trump, just like the Syrian Kurds, the Afghans that helped US soldiers, Venezuelans in general...
 
Greenland for all prctical purposes is now a part of USA, whatever the EU may think. Europe's problem is not Russia but USA and Nato. It is because US has bases and missiles in Europe that Russia is inimical to Europe. Remove that, remove the US dictated sanctions against Russia, then Russia will have no problem with Europe. A European NATO makes more sense than an American NATO. Ukraine's problems too started with its tilt towards US. Now Trump wants Ukraine to give Donbas to Russia. US is not Ukraine's friend. Ukrainians were fooled by US. Lost so many lives, and displaced so many people.

Amigo! I really enjoy most of your posts. But you really are on the Russian bandwagon. Do you have access to western news? I'd encourage you to read European news. But the sanctions will go away once Russia stops invading European countries. Trump wants business with Russia period. So do most of Europe btw. I'm not a Trump fan in the least. But he's been very transparent here. Make a peace with Russia, stop the invasion, and the money will flow to Russia. Trump desperately wants to build a Trump Tower in Russia. Ukraine has offered full peace with Russia if they stop the invasion today. But Russia has said no over and over.
Ukraine has not offered any such thing.
You need to ease on western sources.
 
Greenland for all prctical purposes is now a part of USA, whatever the EU may think. Europe's problem is not Russia but USA and Nato. It is because US has bases and missiles in Europe that Russia is inimical to Europe. Remove that, remove the US dictated sanctions against Russia, then Russia will have no problem with Europe. A European NATO makes more sense than an American NATO. Ukraine's problems too started with its tilt towards US. Now Trump wants Ukraine to give Donbas to Russia. US is not Ukraine's friend. Ukrainians were fooled by US. Lost so many lives, and displaced so many people.
This is just silly.
 
Amigo! I really enjoy most of your posts. But you really are on the Russian bandwagon. Do you have access to western news? I'd encourage you to read European news. But the sanctions will go away once Russia stops invading European countries. Trump wants business with Russia period. So do most of Europe btw. I'm not a Trump fan in the least. But he's been very transparent here. Make a peace with Russia, stop the invasion, and the money will flow to Russia. Trump desperately wants to build a Trump Tower in Russia. Ukraine has offered full peace with Russia if they stop the invasion today. But Russia has said no over and over.
Thanks, friend. My bandwagon is Indian, you may term it as the Modi Bandwagon. Russia invaded only Ukraine, none in Europe, and the tension is there because of NATO and US. If Europe sides with US, allows bases and missiles, then it automatically becomes an area of concern for Russia. Remove that and Europe and Russia will have no problem. Sure, Trump would like to have a Trump Tower in Russia his children and Jared. He has even offered Donbas in return. India already has a Trump Tower in Mumbai and projects in five other cities.

"The Trump Organization typically does not invest directly in construction. Instead, it licenses its brand to local developers for a fee since 2012, which can include upfront payments and a percentage of sales. This model allows Trump to earn revenue without taking on financial risks associated with construction.

The Trump Organization has reportedly earned significant revenue from its Indian projects, with estimates suggesting earnings of at least USD 19 million from previous developments." DuckAssist
 
Because Trump is looking to use it in a manner that is not in Europe's interest.
Trump is looking for minerals and possible oil finds in Greenland without sharing it with Denmark, that is why the approach to Greenland PM and payments to Greenlanders.
This is just silly.
He has three more years to do it, and more if he manages to be a life-long President of USA.
 
Because Trump is looking to use it in a manner that is not in Europe's interest.
Trump is looking for minerals and possible oil finds in Greenland without sharing it with Denmark, that is why the approach to Greenland PM and payments to Greenlanders.
He doesn't care about minerals. The cost to mine Greenland is absurdly high. Oil companies aren't willing to go to Venezuela and the cost sink there is much more affordable.
 
He doesn't care about minerals. The cost to mine Greenland is absurdly high. Oil companies aren't willing to go to Venezuela and the cost sink there is much more affordable.
Even gold and silver are so costly now, if it was not for oil and minerals, Trump would not care for Greenland. Things could change very quickly, like it happened in Alaska and North Sea.
"China has shown interest in Greenland's natural resources, including oil and minerals. .. Despite the potential for minerals, including rare earth elements, actual mining has not yet taken place." DuckAssist
Russia is no more USSR, European countries have not realized this. We find a good friend in Russia.
 
He doesn't care about minerals. The cost to mine Greenland is absurdly high. Oil companies aren't willing to go to Venezuela and the cost sink there is much more affordable.
Even gold and silver are so costly now, if it was not for oil and minerals, Trump would not care for Greenland. Things could change very quickly, like it happened in Alaska and North Sea.
"China has shown interest in Greenland's natural resources, including oil and minerals. .. Despite the potential for minerals, including rare earth elements, actual mining has not yet taken place." DuckAssist
Russia is no more USSR, European countries have not realized this. We find a good friend in Russia.
ROFLMFAO.
 
I'll quote Margaret Thatcher
And thereby lower my opinion of you still further.

"the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money".
Which might even be vaguely relevant, if the British Empire of the C19th had been in any way 'socialism'

:rolleyesa:
 
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if your world domination isn't profitable you will, eventually, stop being dominant.
...whereas, if it is profitable, you will also, eventually, stop being dominant.

Meanwhile, you can live well, or poorly; And if you sole focus is profitability and economics, you will live poorly.

Austerity has been the watchword in the UK since the early '00s, and has been as brilliant a success in helping the UK recover from the GFC as the Smoot-Hawley Tarrif Act was at helping the US recover from the Wall Street Crash.
 
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