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Groupthink Republican or Democrat trait? - derail from Mueller thread

Hussein could not turn over what he did not have.

The invented crisis found nothing.

There was no justification for any military action.

And it is not in hindsight.

At the time I was strongly opposed to the Act that gave Bush cover to do what he wanted.

If I was a Senator there is no doubt I would have voted against it.
 
There is no moral justification to do otherwise.

Need a tissue for that nosebleed on your high horse or are you ever going to actually make a relevant argument?

It is not such a high horse to not give Bush exactly what he wanted in that climate of deception and the desire for war.

One of the first things Rumsfeld asked for on 911 were plans to invade Iraq.
 
There is no moral justification to do otherwise.

Need a tissue for that nosebleed on your high horse or are you ever going to actually make a relevant argument?

It is not such a high horse to not give Bush exactly what he wanted in that climate of deception and the desire for war.

For "regime change" actually and it's ironic you note that considering, once again, that there were many in his administration that were arguing that he did NOT need to go to Congress or to the UN to take action against Iraq. It was evidently Bush's choice to take those routes. And he even publicly announced in October of 2002 (and I believe in reference to either resolution 1441 or "the second resolution"):

Mr. Bush's comments today about Mr. Hussein were sparked in part by statements that Secretary of State Colin L. Powell made on Sunday during television appearances in which he discussed the two weapons crises. Mr. Powell is keenly aware that any talk of ''regime change'' makes Security Council members deeply uneasy, and he has noted repeatedly that while Mr. Saddam's ouster is an American policy, it is not the policy of the United Nations.

''We've tried diplomacy,'' Mr. Bush said when asked about the issue today. ''We're trying it one more time. I believe the free world, if we make up our mind to, can disarm this man peacefully.''

At the same time he said, ''The stated policy of our government, the previous administration and this administration, is regime change -- because we don't believe he is going to change.''

Then, he added a cryptic caveat.

''However, if he were to meet all the conditions of the United Nations, the conditions that I've described very clearly in terms that everybody can understand, that in itself will signal the regime has changed.''

Those were the last words of the brief Oval Office appearance, and aides shooed reporters out before they could ask follow-up questions.

This evening, Mr. Fleischer, asked about the president's comments, said Mr. Bush ''reiterated today what he said in Cincinnati, which was a reiteration of what he said in the United Nations: that Iraq needs to comply with the U.N. resolutions, and if they do their regime will have indeed have changed, because under Saddam Hussein they have shown no inclination to comply.''

Pressed on the question of whether Mr. Hussein could stay in power if he fully complied, Mr. Fleischer chuckled a bit and said: ''I can't imagine a situation in which Iraq would do these things. When these steps are taken to observe the peace and honor the U.N. resolutions, at Saddam Hussein's direction and under his leadership, give me a call to discuss it.''

A review of Mr. Bush's past statements on the question of how Mr. Hussein must change -- and what the result would be -- shows incremental but real differences.

On Sept. 12, speaking at the United Nations, Mr. Bush made six demands that Mr. Hussein must meet ''if the Iraqi regime wishes peace.'' They included disclosing and removing all weapons of mass destruction, ending support for terrorism, ceasing the persecution of its own population, accounting for all those missing in action from the Persian Gulf war, and ending ''all illicit trade'' outside the oil-for-food program.

The president suggested that, even then, a new government would have to be put in place by the United Nations. ''If all these steps are taken, it will signal a new openness and accountability in Iraq,'' he said.

In Cincinnati on Oct. 7, describing his rationale for pressing the Iraq issue, Mr. Bush repeated those demands and added one more: Mr. Hussein must allow his weapons experts to be interviewed outside Iraq -- with their families -- so Mr. Hussein could not intimidate them.

At that time, Mr. Bush seemed to suggest that if Mr. Hussein complied, he would in effect be running a very different country. ''By taking these steps, and by only taking these steps, the Iraqi regime has an opportunity to avoid conflict,'' the president said. ''Taking these steps would also change the nature of the Iraqi regime itself. America hopes the regime will make that choice. Unfortunately, at least so far, we have little reason to expect it.''

He never hid his desire to get rid of Hussein and could have done it at any time he wanted to as Commander In Chief. Were his motives in any way pure? Fuck no. Did he, however, fulfill to Congress exactly what was intended? Here's what Clinton said when she voted:

On Oct. 10, 2002, during the Senate debate on a resolution to authorize the use of force in Iraq, Clinton rose to express her highly qualified support. First, though, she criticized the idea of attacking Saddam then and there, either alone or “with any allies we can muster.” Such a course, she said, “is fraught with danger,” in part because “it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us,” legitimizing invasions that Russia might launch against Georgia, India against Pakistan, or China against Taiwan.

“So,” she continued, “the question is, how do we do our best to both diffuse the threat Saddam Hussein poses to his people, the region, including Israel, and the United States—and, at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations.”

She went on to say that there was “no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma” and that “people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposing conclusions.” But, she concluded, “I believe the best course is to go to the United Nations for a strong resolution” that calls “for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded” from Saddam.

“If we get the resolution the president seeks, and Saddam complies,” Clinton added, “disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. … If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.” This international support is “crucial,” she added, because, “after shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable.”

Then came, from today’s vantage, the key passage: “Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first … I take the president at his word that he will try hard to pass a United Nations resolution and seek to avoid war, if possible. Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely and war less likely—and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause—I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go away with delay will oppose any United Nations resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.”

She added, “This is a difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make. Any vote that may lead to war should be hard, but I cast it with conviction. … My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of preemption or for unilateralism or for the arrogance of American power or purpose.” A vote for the resolution, she argued, “is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our president. And we say to him: Use these powers wisely and as a last resort.”

Again, all of which is precisely what he did do. It worked to get inspectors into the country. Then Blix came back and reported Hussein was not in compliance--as I'm sure Bush already knew would be the case--but even then Bush gave Hussein the chance to save himself and his country. Two days or we come in guns blazing.

Hussein evidently thought he was bluffing or something. He was not.

Was that a "last resort"? Well, Hussein had been given (to that point) eleven years to be in full compliance and even after ALL of that very public theater that Bush's cabal put on--openly stating for months that it is the policy of his administration for regime change and all of the UN debates, etc--hell even YOU knew he wanted an excuse to invade Iraq. And then STILL Hussein did nothing.

Bush actually gave him far more chances than I would have ever thought he would. My take at the time was that all of the public dumbshow that was going on was just hiding the fact that they were already in-country, at least in a special forces sense.

One of the first things Rumsfeld asked for on 911 were plans to invade Iraq.

Yeah, again, we all know this. In fact, as I already presented (and is evidenced in Clinton's speech above), there was considerable debate over how the AUMF would actually curtail any such unilateral war-mongering, hence the inclusion of all of the language I pointed out previously about working with the UN Security Council. And there were numerous amendments proposed during the debates on the language that would specify no military force could be used without express authorization from the UN Security Council, which were rejected by many on both sides of the aisle because of constitutional/sovereignty concerns (i.e., reserving the right to act on our own if need be, etc).
 
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Hussein could not turn over what he did not have.

But he attempted to hide the stuff he believed he had. If he had tried to turn it over and discovered it didn't exist that would have been satisfactory.

There was nothing to turn over.

The whole crisis was manufactured by Bush and company.

Not one thing had changed about Iraq because of 911.

Attacking Iraq was like attacking Portugal after Pearl Harbor.
 
Hussein could not turn over what he did not have.

But he attempted to hide the stuff he believed he had. If he had tried to turn it over and discovered it didn't exist that would have been satisfactory.

There was nothing to turn over.

The whole crisis was manufactured by Bush and company.

Not one thing had changed about Iraq because of 911.

Attacking Iraq was like attacking Portugal after Pearl Harbor.

What you are missing is that Saddam believed there was stuff. What was really going on is his underlings were lying to him. We intercepted those reports of WMD and of course figured the reported materials were real. He tried to hide them. The fact that he was trying to hide phantoms is irrelevant.
 
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