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Growing Inequality (or How Libertarian Theories Go BOOM!)

AthenaAwakened

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Right behind you so ... BOO!
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non-theist, anarcho-socialist
http://www.alternet.org/economy/how...986714&t=2&paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

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Basically, the lessons boiled down to this: Some degree of inequality is both unavoidable and desirable in a free market, and income inequality in the U.S. isn’t very pronounced, anyway. Libertarians starting with these ideas tend to reject any government intervention meant to decrease inequality, claiming that such plans make people lazy and that they don’t work, anyway. Things like progressive income taxes, minimum wage laws and social safety nets make most libertarians very unhappy.

Uncle Milty put it like this:


“A society that puts equality—in the sense of equality of outcome—ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom.… On the other hand, a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.”

Well, that turns out to be spectacularly, jaw-droppingly, head-scratchingly wrong. The U.S. is now a stunningly unequal society, with wealth piling up at the top so fast that an entire movement, Occupy Wall Street, sprung up to decry it with the catchphrase “We are the 99%.”

How did libertarians get it all so backwards? Well, as Piketty points out, people like Milton Friedman were writing at a time when inequality was indeed less pronounced in the U.S. than it had been in previous eras. But they mistook this happy state of affairs as the magic of capitalism. Actually, it wasn’t the magic of capitalism that reduced inequality during a brief, halcyon period after WWII. It was the forces of various economic shocks plus policies our government put in place to respond to them that changed America from a top-heavy society in the Gilded Age to something more egalitarian in the post-war years.

The book, Capital in the 21st Century,is causing quite a stir, but will it cause structural change in the global economy?
 
For some reason the Right and Libertarians have so internalized the Protestant Work Ethic that they can't help but equate being poor with being lazy and evil and being successful with being hard working and good.

They've basically turned the economy into a morality play.
 
For some reason the Right and Libertarians have so internalized the Protestant Work Ethic that they can't help but equate being poor with being lazy and evil and being successful with being hard working and good.

They've basically turned the economy into a morality play.

nice nice way to put it.

And the market is the holy arbiter of all things right and righteous
 
If it's not working perfectly, all that means is that it's not real libertarianism.
 
If it's not working perfectly, all that means is that it's not real libertarianism.

Actually most libertarians wouldn't have a problem with income inequality as long as it was obtained through mutual trade. The arguments they woud have against it would government inflationary policies, government subsidies to corporations, etc. We have a mix match of policies so all sides can look at certin policies and say this policy changes it, etc.

As I said in the other thread, this has been an argument for the last 30 years and will continue to be one for a long time.
 
If it's not working perfectly, all that means is that it's not real libertarianism.

Yes, the wise and thoughtful man need only see the libertarians consistently racking up 1 or 2% vote totals every election to understand we live in a society dominated by libertarian ideas.
 
If it's not working perfectly, all that means is that it's not real libertarianism.

Yes, the wise and thoughtful man need only see the libertarians consistently racking up 1 or 2% vote totals every election to understand we live in a society dominated by libertarian ideas.

are you saying that libertarian ideas hold no sway in conservative think tanks, ALEC, GOPAC and the GOP?
 
The problem with their interpretation of the Protestant Work Ethic is that it was originally directed at the children of the wealthy. The second sons of lords and whatnot that felt that they weren't supposed to do manual labor in the new colonies. Everyone else knew they had to work to eat.
 
So ... this book is about the current US economic structure, and somehow this has something to do with libertarians?

No.

No, it does not.

Carry on with your day. Nothing to see here for you.

But the thread title says "Libertarian Theories go BOOM".

Whatever Milton Friedman said, the article also said "The U.S. is now a stunningly unequal society". It used the word "now" which would indicate rather heavily that it has nothing at all to do with libertarianism. Yes, Friedman said there will be inequality, but what the hell is so damn libertarian about the current Corporatist-Keynesian economy of the US now?

It seems in this forum, people can find an article about anything at all and insert the word "libertarian" into the thread title as if the article has something to do with it. Find an article "local dog bites postman" and people will post the thread "local libertarian dog bites postman."
 
Jason

I know you are here to defend to one true faith, the real libertarianism, but your faith has been co-opted, its name has been besmirched, its tenets used in furtherance of evil. Attack not we the unbelievers but the priests in the temple.
 
Last edited:
http://www.alternet.org/economy/how...letter986714&t=2&paging=off¤t_page=1#bookmark

Back in minute

OK, back

Basically, the lessons boiled down to this: Some degree of inequality is both unavoidable and desirable in a free market, and income inequality in the U.S. isn’t very pronounced, anyway. Libertarians starting with these ideas tend to reject any government intervention meant to decrease inequality, claiming that such plans make people lazy and that they don’t work, anyway. Things like progressive income taxes, minimum wage laws and social safety nets make most libertarians very unhappy.

Uncle Milty put it like this:


“A society that puts equality—in the sense of equality of outcome—ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom.… On the other hand, a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.”

Well, that turns out to be spectacularly, jaw-droppingly, head-scratchingly wrong. The U.S. is now a stunningly unequal society, with wealth piling up at the top so fast that an entire movement, Occupy Wall Street, sprung up to decry it with the catchphrase “We are the 99%.”

How did libertarians get it all so backwards? Well, as Piketty points out, people like Milton Friedman were writing at a time when inequality was indeed less pronounced in the U.S. than it had been in previous eras. But they mistook this happy state of affairs as the magic of capitalism. Actually, it wasn’t the magic of capitalism that reduced inequality during a brief, halcyon period after WWII. It was the forces of various economic shocks plus policies our government put in place to respond to them that changed America from a top-heavy society in the Gilded Age to something more egalitarian in the post-war years.

The book, Capital in the 21st Century,is causing quite a stir, but will it cause structural change in the global economy?

Are you seriously arguing that we have been following libertarian policies? The government has been intervening in all kinds of way and in all kinds of areas in the US economy.

Most libertarians favor, first of all, a gold standard. We went off the gold standard way back in 1933, and it could be argued way back to 1913 since the Fed was allowed to accept debt, as well as gold among its reserves. The last vestige of the gold standard was abandoned in 1971 when we went off the gold standard even with regard to foreign central banks. So if we're not on a gold standard most libertarians would object right there.

Milton Friedman was an exception. He did not favor a gold standard. Nor did he favor a central bank. He thought the government should simply expand the money supply by 3-5% per year. In other words, the money supply should expand roughly in line with productivity so that you had plenty of liquidity but didn't create inflation. But among libertarians, Friedman is actually a little on the heretical side.

In any case, we haven't had anything like Friedmanite policies either. Far from targeting the money supply, the Fed has usually targeted interest rates. This actually violates the most basic of all economics rules - the law of supply and demand. If the government sets the price of potatoes, for example, it is pretty predictable that you are going to get either a surplus of potatoes or a shortage because it is the market price that tells the producer that there is a surplus or a shortage and allows him to respond to that. If markets do not set the interest rate you are going to get distortions because interest rates are the price of money.

For example, in 2001 the Fed Chairman, Alan Greenspan undertook what has become known as the "Greenspan put." He forced interest rates down from 6.5% all the way down to 1% two years later. The result was the housing bubble. Many, many people bought houses because the low interest rates and easy credit terms made them so affordable. And many people were getting second mortgages on the equity in their homes. But what happens when the interest rate goes up? The price of housing falls. Now people owe more on their homes than the homes are worth. For the "house flippers" who were speculating on this bubble, they are sure to go bankrupt because the rents won't cover the mortgage cost. So they need to sell these houses but they can't get enough to pay the mortgage so they go bankrupt. Likewise, home owners are tempted just to walk away from their mortgage. And that spreads to the banks and to all those financial institutions that have bought derivatives called "mortgage backed securities." And you know the rest of the story.

All this because the Fed would not allow the market to set the interest rate. Instead, they thought they would juice the economy and get us out of the bust from the dot.com bubble. They just created a bigger bubble. We're doing the same thing now which is why so many people are saying that we're heading for another crash.
 
For some reason the Right and Libertarians have so internalized the Protestant Work Ethic that they can't help but equate being poor with being lazy and evil and being successful with being hard working and good.

They've basically turned the economy into a morality play.

nice nice way to put it.

And the market is the holy arbiter of all things right and righteous

Guess what? If nobody works, nobody eats. The only reason we have anything is because somebody works to produce it. But some people figure out a way to get other people to work for them for a guaranteed wage provided that they assume the risk. So you get other people to work for you, and you hope that you can sell those products for more than it cost you to produce them (including, of course, the wages that you have to pay out). If you can pull that off, you can get rich. (Most people who try it, of course, do not succeed).

So now you can sit around and do nothing? Is that immoral? No. Being lazy is not immoral. There's no Protestant Work Ethic when if comes to being rich. So why are lazy poor people so denigrated?

Because they have to live off others. That is the difference between the lazy rich and the lazy poor. The lazy rich have arranged sources of income so that they do not have live off others. (Of course, it is the irony that many very hard-working, ambitious entreprenuers work hard all their lives so they can leave all that wealth to their lazy children, but that's the way the system works when you have private property).

So most of us never figure out a way to accumulate enough wealth so that we don't have to work at least until retirement age. But is that any reason to resent the ones who do? I don't see why we should. On the other hand, does that mean that we shouldn't resent the people who don't work and have to live off of us? No.

Work is a given and everyone has to do it except the few who've managed to save enough to avoid it. So if we create incentives NOT to work, we will get less work, and if we create disincentives to not work we will get more of it. It's really that simple. Nature creates a disincentive to not work. It's called starvation. Why would you want to remove that incentive? We have enough people who can't work i.e. children, disabled people, old folks that we don't need the extra burden of people who just don't feel like it.
 
If it's not working perfectly, all that means is that it's not real libertarianism.

Yes, the wise and thoughtful man need only see the libertarians consistently racking up 1 or 2% vote totals every election to understand we live in a society dominated by libertarian ideas.

You've vastly distorted the case. When did a libertarian candidate ever get 2%? Gary Johnson's 1% this year set a record for a Libertarian candidate. Usually they get about half that.
 
If it's not working perfectly, all that means is that it's not real libertarianism.

Yes, the wise and thoughtful man need only see the libertarians consistently racking up 1 or 2% vote totals every election to understand we live in a society dominated by libertarian ideas.

are you saying that libertarian ideas hold no sway in conservative think tanks, ALEC, GOPAC and the GOP?

Not much. Libertarianism is a POLITICAL theory. It typically uses free market arguments to justify that theory, but the claim is still political. Free market economics is an ECONOMIC theory. The two are not the same. The Communist Chinese decided to introduce free market reforms. That didn't make the Chinese Communists libertarians. It made them pragmatists. They realized that it was impossible to organize an economy efficiently without utilizing at least some information from the market.
 
So ... this book is about the current US economic structure, and somehow this has something to do with libertarians?

Piketty is a Marxist. Marxist economic theory was discredited intellectually way back in the 1870's. It was discredited in a more palpable form by the collapse of the Soviet Union and the abandonment of Marxist economics by China in the 1980's and '90's. So naturally the New York Times and the intellectual elite in the this country are fawning all over this book. Anything to justify expanding the power of the state i.e. the same elites who are fawning all over this book.
 
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