Gun Control Proposals

[Rhea]

No, seriously, you don’t need to post on this thread at all Loren. I get it. You don’t think anthing should change and you don’t like research. I get it.

I’m looking for actual discussion of actual proposals, not Eeyore with a keyboard.


A reminder from the OP:

I am looking for productive discussion among people who want things to work.

 

[RavenSky]

[Citation needed]

 

[RavenSky]

Off the top of my head I'd say we need to approach the problem like we did with seat belts, cigarettes and drunk driving. We have to change the culture.

Simply passing a law won't be enough. We need to counter the NRA's argument that the solution to gun violence is more gun violence. Part of that is changing the NRA itself, which I understand is a big ask, but there was a time when the organization was almost 100 percent about educating people about gun safety. Back in the 1970s I took an NRA sponsored gun safety course and the primary message was that you never, ever, ever pointed a gun at another human being. Ever. Even accidentally. You checked what was down range. Checked your field of fire. If there was even a remote chance of a round putting another human being at risk you didn't fire.

Today it seems like the NRA's message is the opposite. That there's vanishingly few situations that cannot be solved by the judicious use of a firearm.

IMO, that's why we seem to have a plethora of mass shootings. The perpetrators have taken that message to heart, and have decided that the best way to solve a problem is to shoot it. Same thing with suicide. The statistic floating around out there is that something like 20 veterans kill themselves every day. Again, gun = solution.

So like with drunk driving and smoking and seat belts we need to embark on a decades-long project to change the culture. No, it is not "cool" to smoke. No, it is not "cool" to get behind the wheel after a few cocktails. Buckle up.

And the thing is, advertising works. Marketing works. Hammering the same message over and over again in the media and popular culture can make a difference. The message from this weekend's marches is "gun violence is a bad thing." Seems like an obvious truth, but we need to hit that message over and over again. For a generation or so. Shooting someone is not a good idea. A gun isn't a solution to whatever ails you. Escalation of this arms race is a dead end. We need ad campaigns and public service announcements and every branch of government pushing the message and it has to be consistent and constant.

As far as laws go, we already have gun control. Stop by your neighborhood firearms dealer and ask if you can buy a fully automatic rifle like an M16. The answer is "no." Machine guns are tightly restricted and even the NRA and some 2nd Amendment advocates are okay with that. So we need to expand those laws incrementally until such time as an AR15 will be just as hard to obtain as an M16. It will take a long time, but again, like changing the public perception of tobacco it is a worthy effort.

I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you said.

The only part I disagree with is the idea of needing incremental laws to ban the AR-15 and other quasi-military weapons of war. They were outlawed once, and should be again... sooner rather than later.

I remember when they passed the seat belt laws. The laws came first, then the shift in public opinion. Marketing certainly helped, but it followed the laws - not the other way around.

Same with cigarettes.

 

[James Madison]

I'd like to discuss ideas for and targeted problems to be addressed by gun control proposals.

If you'd like to talk about slippery slopes, go (to) elsewhere. If you'd like to say NRA talking points about arming more people, go to elsewhere.

This thread is for meaningful discussion of possible proposals and why and how they would work.
I am looking for productive discussion among people who want things to work.
I would love to hear from people who understand law, statistics and psychology and where things could be tightened up. I tried browsing the web for gun control proposals, but I really don't see anything comprehensive, and I don't see it in a soothing table format with targeted action. So I'm creating one.

When I look at the problem of gun control legislation, I see that different problems have different solutions. My brain likes to bucket things and divide the issues into workable groups, so that's how I'll start. I haven't decided on the best table order for this, so I may change it and repost it later in the thread. But here's my start.

What are your thoughts? Additional legislative proposals? What additional rows or columns would you add? What comments or statistics would you add?




[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]Problem[/td]
[td]Legislative_Solution[/td]
[td]How it works[/td]
[td]Impact[/td]
[td]Drawbacks Limitations[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Criminal handgun crime[/td]
[td]Real databases, real background checks, real audits of sellers with heavy penalties for missing guns or straw sales, audits of those with many guns, citations for losing or having your gun stolen without a report[/td]
[td]stops the flow of thousands of cheap unreported handguns into crime areas[/td]
[td]200,000+ criminal guns per year[/td]
[td]some may object to the audit portion[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Suicide and Accident deaths[/td]
[td]biometrics, citation for lack of securing, insurance, waiting periods and background checks[/td]
[td]Make the guns unfirable except by owner, and when it does happen you will pay hard.[/td]
[td]20,000 deaths per year[/td]
[td]some fear that biometrics might prevent them from being a hero[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Mass Shootings[/td]
[td]Ban rapid fire weapons and rigs to make rapid fire[/td]
[td]they will have to find another way - more difficult, and can't kill as many people[/td]
[td]20+ per year[/td]
[td]Rednecks can't kill toilets in their woods for fun while drunk[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

This thread is for meaningful discussion of possible proposals and why and how they would work.
I am looking for productive discussion among people who want things to work.

What are your proposals supposed to solve or address? Mass shootings? School shootings? Both?

Yes, I need you to answer because I am not going to define your own goals for you or anyone else.

 

[James Madison]

Off the top of my head I'd say we need to approach the problem like we did with seat belts, cigarettes and drunk driving. We have to change the culture.

Simply passing a law won't be enough. We need to counter the NRA's argument that the solution to gun violence is more gun violence. Part of that is changing the NRA itself, which I understand is a big ask, but there was a time when the organization was almost 100 percent about educating people about gun safety. Back in the 1970s I took an NRA sponsored gun safety course and the primary message was that you never, ever, ever pointed a gun at another human being. Ever. Even accidentally. You checked what was down range. Checked your field of fire. If there was even a remote chance of a round putting another human being at risk you didn't fire.

Today it seems like the NRA's message is the opposite. That there's vanishingly few situations that cannot be solved by the judicious use of a firearm.

IMO, that's why we seem to have a plethora of mass shootings. The perpetrators have taken that message to heart, and have decided that the best way to solve a problem is to shoot it. Same thing with suicide. The statistic floating around out there is that something like 20 veterans kill themselves every day. Again, gun = solution.

So like with drunk driving and smoking and seat belts we need to embark on a decades-long project to change the culture. No, it is not "cool" to smoke. No, it is not "cool" to get behind the wheel after a few cocktails. Buckle up.

And the thing is, advertising works. Marketing works. Hammering the same message over and over again in the media and popular culture can make a difference. The message from this weekend's marches is "gun violence is a bad thing." Seems like an obvious truth, but we need to hit that message over and over again. For a generation or so. Shooting someone is not a good idea. A gun isn't a solution to whatever ails you. Escalation of this arms race is a dead end. We need ad campaigns and public service announcements and every branch of government pushing the message and it has to be consistent and constant.

As far as laws go, we already have gun control. Stop by your neighborhood firearms dealer and ask if you can buy a fully automatic rifle like an M16. The answer is "no." Machine guns are tightly restricted and even the NRA and some 2nd Amendment advocates are okay with that. So we need to expand those laws incrementally until such time as an AR15 will be just as hard to obtain as an M16. It will take a long time, but again, like changing the public perception of tobacco it is a worthy effort.

The only part I disagree with is the idea of needing incremental laws to ban the AR-15 and other quasi-military weapons of war. They were outlawed once, and should be again... sooner rather than later.

What effect is a ban on the Ar-15 supposed to achieve? What is the purpose, uh, the goal of such a ban on the AR-15?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

What effect is a ban on the Ar-15 supposed to achieve? What is the purpose, uh, the goal of such a ban on the AR-15?

I imagine that the purpose would be to limit the ability of people to get AR-15s.

Don't really need to get any more profound than that ...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Research would be a good thing. The left wouldn't like it, though--too many of their arguments are based on nonsense.

How could we possibly know, in the absence of any actual research?

It's not 'the left' who liked the data so little that they made collection of it illegal.

The left was trying to preordain the results. That's why it got stomped on.

Ah, the Loren I remember from years long past.

Simply put, NRA types believe that the number of gun deaths in America are acceptable. Hence, there are no problems here.

The funny thing is that there were dozens shot down (as in killed, scores were injured) at a country music festival and almost no national response, anything like after the Parkland shooting. The idea of banning bump stocks makes the NRA mess their pants.

There simply is no solution. The nation is saturated both with guns and people that cling to them as if handed to them by Christ. This can not be undone. We can hardly even ban semi-automatic weapons (pretty much the best we could do to try and limit massacres, forget about quelling gun violence).

- - - Updated - - -

Off the top of my head I'd say we need to approach the problem like we did with seat belts, cigarettes and drunk driving. We have to change the culture.

Simply passing a law won't be enough. We need to counter the NRA's argument that the solution to gun violence is more gun violence. Part of that is changing the NRA itself, which I understand is a big ask, but there was a time when the organization was almost 100 percent about educating people about gun safety. Back in the 1970s I took an NRA sponsored gun safety course and the primary message was that you never, ever, ever pointed a gun at another human being. Ever. Even accidentally. You checked what was down range. Checked your field of fire. If there was even a remote chance of a round putting another human being at risk you didn't fire.

Today it seems like the NRA's message is the opposite. That there's vanishingly few situations that cannot be solved by the judicious use of a firearm.

IMO, that's why we seem to have a plethora of mass shootings. The perpetrators have taken that message to heart, and have decided that the best way to solve a problem is to shoot it. Same thing with suicide. The statistic floating around out there is that something like 20 veterans kill themselves every day. Again, gun = solution.

So like with drunk driving and smoking and seat belts we need to embark on a decades-long project to change the culture. No, it is not "cool" to smoke. No, it is not "cool" to get behind the wheel after a few cocktails. Buckle up.

And the thing is, advertising works. Marketing works. Hammering the same message over and over again in the media and popular culture can make a difference. The message from this weekend's marches is "gun violence is a bad thing." Seems like an obvious truth, but we need to hit that message over and over again. For a generation or so. Shooting someone is not a good idea. A gun isn't a solution to whatever ails you. Escalation of this arms race is a dead end. We need ad campaigns and public service announcements and every branch of government pushing the message and it has to be consistent and constant.

As far as laws go, we already have gun control. Stop by your neighborhood firearms dealer and ask if you can buy a fully automatic rifle like an M16. The answer is "no." Machine guns are tightly restricted and even the NRA and some 2nd Amendment advocates are okay with that. So we need to expand those laws incrementally until such time as an AR15 will be just as hard to obtain as an M16. It will take a long time, but again, like changing the public perception of tobacco it is a worthy effort.

The only part I disagree with is the idea of needing incremental laws to ban the AR-15 and other quasi-military weapons of war. They were outlawed once, and should be again... sooner rather than later.

What effect is a ban on the Ar-15 supposed to achieve? What is the purpose, uh, the goal of such a ban on the AR-15?

I'll replace the AR-15 with Abrams Tank. Can you answer that question? I mean what is the goal of preventing Americans from owning an Abrams Tank?

 

[Treedbear]

What effect is a ban on the Ar-15 supposed to achieve? What is the purpose, uh, the goal of such a ban on the AR-15?

I imagine that the purpose would be to limit the ability of people to get AR-15s.

Don't really need to get any more profound than that ...

We need to know exactly why the AR-15 in particular warrants being banned. Or, more to the point, why is it such a popular gun among gun proponents in the first place? I understand that it's not a machine gun/fully automatic rifle. It's apparently not the weapon of choice by the military. But apparently there is some feature that makes it more lethal than other types of rifles. And it's on those merits it should be considered.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

What effect is a ban on the Ar-15 supposed to achieve? What is the purpose, uh, the goal of such a ban on the AR-15?

I imagine that the purpose would be to limit the ability of people to get AR-15s.

Don't really need to get any more profound than that ...

We need to know exactly why the AR-15 in particular warrants being banned. Or, more to the point, why is it such a popular gun among gun proponents in the first place? I understand that it's not a machine gun/fully automatic rifle. It's apparently not the weapon of choice by the military. But apparently there is some feature that makes it more lethal than other types of rifles. And it's on those merits it should be considered.

Because it's accurate, customizable and easy to use. It's a very well designed weapon for taking down groups of people. But yes, semi-automatic and automatic weapons should be banned in full, not just specific models of them.

 

[coloradoatheist]

What effect is a ban on the Ar-15 supposed to achieve? What is the purpose, uh, the goal of such a ban on the AR-15?

I imagine that the purpose would be to limit the ability of people to get AR-15s.

Don't really need to get any more profound than that ...

We need to know exactly why the AR-15 in particular warrants being banned. Or, more to the point, why is it such a popular gun among gun proponents in the first place? I understand that it's not a machine gun/fully automatic rifle. It's apparently not the weapon of choice by the military. But apparently there is some feature that makes it more lethal than other types of rifles. And it's on those merits it should be considered.

The advantages of it are that it is has less recoil, easier to aim, it's ability to have a higher load capacity, and it's better distance range.

 

[Cycad]

...
Bear in mind that I live next door to people who use semi-automatic and modified fully-automatic weapons to shoot toilets in the woods.
...

Hi Rhea

Forgive me if, as European, I am misinformed.

I understood fully automatic weapons are already very strictly regulated, even forbidden, in all states.
Modification kits ditto and strictly illegal .
If not bump stocks would be useless wouldnt they ?

Besides that, seriously : what do you mean by shooting toilets in the woods ? Just curious.
(imagining Obese Scatological Americans hauling porcelain toilet pots deep into the woods for target practice)

 

[James Madison]

What effect is a ban on the Ar-15 supposed to achieve? What is the purpose, uh, the goal of such a ban on the AR-15?

I imagine that the purpose would be to limit the ability of people to get AR-15s.

Don't really need to get any more profound than that ...

Well, perhaps your confusion is over the fact you’ve provided a profoundly superficial purpose.

Limiting the ability of people to acquire AR-15s isn’t the purpose. This isn’t limiting access for the sake and purpose of limiting access. The limitation of access seeks to achieve a specific result, a desired effect, to serve a specific purpose, and it isn’t limited access for the sake of limited access.


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[James Madison]

We need to know exactly why the AR-15 in particular warrants being banned. Or, more to the point, why is it such a popular gun among gun proponents in the first place? I understand that it's not a machine gun/fully automatic rifle. It's apparently not the weapon of choice by the military. But apparently there is some feature that makes it more lethal than other types of rifles. And it's on those merits it should be considered.

Because it's accurate, customizable and easy to use. It's a very well designed weapon for taking down groups of people. But yes, semi-automatic and automatic weapons should be banned in full, not just specific models of them.

Are you suggesting then the AR-15 should be banned in an effort to abate or preclude mass shootings and/or school shootings?


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[Tom Sawyer]

We need to know exactly why the AR-15 in particular warrants being banned. Or, more to the point, why is it such a popular gun among gun proponents in the first place? I understand that it's not a machine gun/fully automatic rifle. It's apparently not the weapon of choice by the military. But apparently there is some feature that makes it more lethal than other types of rifles. And it's on those merits it should be considered.

Because it's accurate, customizable and easy to use. It's a very well designed weapon for taking down groups of people. But yes, semi-automatic and automatic weapons should be banned in full, not just specific models of them.

Are you suggesting then the AR-15 should be banned in an effort to abate or preclude mass shootings and/or school shootings?

Ya, along with all other semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Also because it's really creepy that you can buy them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you suggesting then the AR-15 should be banned in an effort to abate or preclude mass shootings and/or school shootings?

Ya, along with all other semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Also because it's really creepy that you can buy them.

But why? Remember the 2nd Amendment is a blank check, so there is no viable reason that you can ban them... like you can other weapons of war.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Are you suggesting then the AR-15 should be banned in an effort to abate or preclude mass shootings and/or school shootings?

Ya, along with all other semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Also because it's really creepy that you can buy them.

But why? Remember the 2nd Amendment is a blank check, so there is no viable reason that you can ban them... like you can other weapons of war.

So instead of nitpicking around the details, why hasn't there been a proposed 28th amendment?

 

[James Madison]

Are you suggesting then the AR-15 should be banned in an effort to abate or preclude mass shootings and/or school shootings?

Ya, along with all other semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Also because it's really creepy that you can buy them.

You reference “semi-automatic” weapons. So, other semi-automatic weapons, such as the Glock handgun 9mm, the Beretta, Ruger SR series, etcetera, along with the AR-15, are a cause for mass shootings and school shootings and should be banned?





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[James Madison]

Are you suggesting then the AR-15 should be banned in an effort to abate or preclude mass shootings and/or school shootings?

Ya, along with all other semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Also because it's really creepy that you can buy them.

But why? Remember the 2nd Amendment is a blank check, so there is no viable reason that you can ban them... like you can other weapons of war.

“Weapons of war?” The very phrase sounds frightening. What exactly does the phrase specifically reference?


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[Jolly_Penguin]

My proposal is to build a wall on our southern border, to keep the Americans out. It will be a big wall so we better get started. Guns are not the problem. Americans are.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

My proposal is to build a wall on our southern border, to keep the Americans out. It will be a big wall so we better get started. Guns are not the problem. Americans are.

And America will pay for it!!!!

- - - Updated - - -

Are you suggesting then the AR-15 should be banned in an effort to abate or preclude mass shootings and/or school shootings?

Ya, along with all other semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Also because it's really creepy that you can buy them.

You reference “semi-automatic” weapons. So, other semi-automatic weapons, such as the Glock handgun 9mm, the Beretta, Ruger SR series, etcetera, along with the AR-15, are a cause for mass shootings and school shootings and should be banned?

Ya. Not just for the sake of preventing mass shootings, of course, but all the other bullshit you people get up to with them as well, but helping to prevent mass shootings would be one of the big ones.