Gun-grabber jack-booted thugs steal freedom of innocent man

[Underseer]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...a6d2fa-e771-11e8-b8dc-66cca409c180_story.html

An innocent man was arrested for no good reason.

He was arrested just because he owned guns, had political views not approved of by the state and publicly stated that the Jews in that synagogue shooting deserved to die.

This is a dangerous precedent. What if the police actually succeed in thwarting acts of mass murder? Then the gun manufacturers will sell fewer guns, which will make all of us less free. Worse, there might be fewer Americans dying at the hands of white terrorists every year. Who wants to live in a nightmare like that? Fewer white terrorists and less profits for gun manufacturers? Society would collapse into chaos within a matter of weeks, then America would become a lawless violent Mad Max-style wasteland just like Australia or Germany or the UK or even (gasp) Japan! [/conservolibertarian]

Anyway, on a more serious note, this guy definitely sounded like a lit fuse on the verge of becoming the next white terrorist.

The documents said Jeffrey Clark posted a description of himself as a “Meth-Smoking, Pipe bomb making, mailman-murding . . . Che Guevara of the altright.”

Of the attack on the synagogue, court papers said Jeffrey Clark posted a picture of the suspected gunman spattered in what appears to be blood and wrote, “This was a dry run for things to come.”

But did the authorities identify him as a threat in the correct way?

Honestly, I think high capacity magazines should trigger immediate examination by law enforcement in the same way purchasing large amounts of fertilizer or Sudafed will automatically trigger law enforcement attention in case you are making a bomb or manufacturing illegal drugs. Whether high capacity magazines should be illegal is another discussion, but at minimum purchasing them should result in immediate scrutiny. If not, then we should stop examining people who buy large quantities of certain fertilizers or cold remedies.

How should the government go about identifying potential threats in a way that reduces white terrorism, but without opening the door to future abuses by the government?

This guy was clearly a violent white supremacist on the verge of becoming a white terrorist. Worse, he was a deranged white supremacist with fantasies of violence living in a predominantly minority neighborhood. There's not too many good reasons a neo-Nazi would want to live in a minority neighborhood.

If assault weapons with high-capacity magazines weren't so easy to get, then perhaps we wouldn't have to have difficult decisions about when the government can and can't throw people in jail and throw away the key without an actual crime occurring, but since we're not allowed to make it harder for crazy people to buy weapons appropriate for mass murder, then we have to talk about this. We have to talk about when the government can or can't put people away indefinitely without an actual crime taking place.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And should either of your examples apply?

My parents once bought hundreds of pounds of ammonium nitrate despite being suburban. (The stuff you make fertilizer bombs out of.) Terrorists? No--several years worth of plant food at a going out of business sale.

Likewise, pseudophedrine--before the crackdown I bought currently-illegal quantities more than once--when someone had a good sale.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And should either of your examples apply?

My parents once bought hundreds of pounds of ammonium nitrate despite being suburban. (The stuff you make fertilizer bombs out of.) Terrorists? No--several years worth of plant food at a going out of business sale.

Likewise, pseudophedrine--before the crackdown I bought currently-illegal quantities more than once--when someone had a good sale.

Correct. It may be perfectly legitimate, but it still falls under the category of things which require investigation due to the potential danger. If there's a reasonable explanation like with your parents then no worries, but allowing mass murderers to build bombs with impunity in order to spare some innocents a few questions is a bad payoff.

It should be the same with high capacity magazines. Maybe some guy got them for a perfectly legitimate reason, but there's enough potential danger in somebody wanting them that it should require an investigation to see if there are any red flags there.

 

[Gun Nut]

Large quantities of fertilizer makes sense for a farmer.
Large capacity magazines makes sense for a target shooter.

I can only imagine that manufacturing a car that is capable of exceeding the speed limit has no purpose other than to break the law and increase the likelihood of deadly accidents. Anyone buying a car that is capable of exceeding the speed limit in the state of purchase should be arrested for planning on creating a deadly 100 car pileup... mass murderers they are.

 

[Patooka]

This is a clear violation of The CONSTITUTION! (TM).

Please don't ask me where in the The CONSTITUTION! (TM) that stipulates such an act, I'm just going to assume you know the relevant points and I don't need to highlight my ignorance. But The CONSTITUTION! (TM) is right here and that is why everyone is wrong. The civilian population of the USA must have weapons superior than what was used to storm the beaches of D-Day because of The CONSTITUTION! (TM).

"Let me tell you about the negro..."

Viva The CONSTITUTION! (TM).

- - - Updated - - -

Large capacity magazines makes sense for a target shooter.

No, it doesn't. That is bullshit.

 

[scombrid]

Large quantities of fertilizer makes sense for a farmer.

And when someone that doesn't normally buy a lot buys a lot then what? Check them out.

Large capacity magazines makes sense for a target shooter.

Not sure about that. Serious target shooters I know aren't out blazing away.

I can only imagine that manufacturing a car that is capable of exceeding the speed limit has no purpose other than to break the law and increase the likelihood of deadly accidents. Anyone buying a car that is capable of exceeding the speed limit in the state of purchase should be arrested for planning on creating a deadly 100 car pileup... mass murderers they are.

Funny thing about cars. Title, registration, laws restricting how they are used. Sure they are capable of breaking the law right off the line but they are pretty tightly regulated compared to guns. I recently drove the wheels off a car and then donated it for scrap when it was no longer useful to me. I still had to jump through all the hoops to legally transfer the title to the scrapper.

 

[Underseer]

And should either of your examples apply?

My parents once bought hundreds of pounds of ammonium nitrate despite being suburban. (The stuff you make fertilizer bombs out of.) Terrorists? No--several years worth of plant food at a going out of business sale.

Likewise, pseudophedrine--before the crackdown I bought currently-illegal quantities more than once--when someone had a good sale.

If you buy large quantities of certain kinds of fertilizer, it triggers an automatic investigation.

Yes, it's possible for the police to investigate someone and not find them guilty, especially if they are white.

Are you saying that it was wrong to investigate people who buy large quantities of fertilizer in the wake of the Oaklahoma City bombing?

Funny how your attitudes about terrorism changes drastically when we're talking about white terrorists.

 

[Underseer]

Large quantities of fertilizer makes sense for a farmer.

I imagine those automatic investigations don't cover people who regularly buy large quantities of fertilizer, but it's interesting how quick you are to argue against investigating this specific type of possible terrorism. Is it because the only case we have of a terrorist using this type of bomb is a white person?

Large capacity magazines makes sense for a target shooter.

Have you seen the kinds of clips competition shooters use?

I can only imagine that manufacturing a car that is capable of exceeding the speed limit has no purpose other than to break the law and increase the likelihood of deadly accidents. Anyone buying a car that is capable of exceeding the speed limit in the state of purchase should be arrested for planning on creating a deadly 100 car pileup... mass murderers they are.

There have been a lot of people in recent decades that were arrested for planning a terrorist attack. Many of those investigations started because they bought certain things.

Which of those who were convicted should be let go in your opinion?

 

[Gun Nut]

Funny thing about cars. Title, registration, laws restricting how they are used. Sure they are capable of breaking the law right off the line but they are pretty tightly regulated compared to guns. I recently drove the wheels off a car and then donated it for scrap when it was no longer useful to me. I still had to jump through all the hoops to legally transfer the title to the scrapper.

I agree that all firearms should be regulated far better than they are. My opinion (and experience) is that the missing regulations are 100% on who can get their hands on one, and what the penalty is for carrying one illegally.

High capacity mags are a convenience for target shooters. Hand guns only... high cap mags make no sense for rifles designed for longer range higher accuracy use.. for target shooting. The auto loading rifles that use magazines of ANY size are far inferior to a bolt action that takes a single round at a time, in terms of fine accuracy. So, for rifles, if target shooting is something you are serious about, then magazines are not something you are even interested in using.

 

[Gun Nut]

I imagine those automatic investigations don't cover people who regularly buy large quantities of fertilizer, but it's interesting how quick you are to argue against investigating this specific type of possible terrorism. Is it because the only case we have of a terrorist using this type of bomb is a white person?

Where did I argue against an investigation? I make my living on investigations for fuck's sake. I have personally performed about 12 investigations this week. 2 may continue into next week. of those, neither is likely to go anywhere, but might. The remaining 10 were closed within a few hours, as they were confirmed benign... like how someone said they bought lots of fertilizer for a good reason.. that is the type of thing I might find out for the lead investigator to close out the investigation. "Trust but verify"... everything.
This is what law enforcement does... they investigate everything that has POTENTIAL to be a threat. Quietly, and discreetly.
In my former job I followed people around for a living to confirm certain allegations.... 1 time out of 100's I had to make a confirming report.
One could say, statistically speaking, my job is to clear people of claims of wrongdoing.

Have you seen the kinds of clips competition shooters use?

A clip is a device used to hold cartridges and to charge a magazine more quickly... similar to a "quick loader". You don't load a clip into a gun, you charge a magazine with a clip. Is that what you meant to talk about, or is your Hollywood-based education about guns getting in the way here?

Today's competition shooters are engaged in far different activities than the classic target shooters... they use standard magazines with modified springs (for reliability) that they can just drop on the ground during a three-gun competition or whatever. Regardless of the capacity of the mag, each round of three gun has an amount of ammo specified... I don't participate in that type of competition, but we are talking like a maximum of 5 rounds per station...

In skeet and sporting clay, you have a 2 cartridge maximum at a time.

There have been a lot of people in recent decades that were arrested for planning a terrorist attack. Many of those investigations started because they bought certain things.

Which of those who were convicted should be let go in your opinion?

I didn;t perform those investigations, so how should I know?

You guys put quite a lot of words in my mouth... It's your rabid racism, in my opinion. "What, you don't think all guns should be banned... how dare you say everyone should have a gun!!"
Exactly like how the reps are getting away with saying that you liberals only want "totally open boarders and no vetting at all!!!".. cept you libs don't know how to get away with it.

 

[Gun Nut]

Not sure about that. Serious target shooters I know aren't out blazing away.

It's expensive. In bulk, I pay $0.17 per cartridge for 9mm, which isn't even my target shooting caliber. I shoot 357, which costs about $0.26 per cartridge.
I'm sure I've been investigated and don't even know it. I don't care. I am the definition of the "good guy with a gun". I just bought, last week, 1,520 cartridges all together in one online order. I saved about $100 on that order by buying in bulk online with a coupon.

Some of the ammo I buy for personal defense and for work costs over $1.00 per cartridge. The box of 20 9mm Federal hydroshocks I bought are designed for maximum stopping power, and will not go through walls. They cost like $1.50 each. I still have to pass them through my handgun from time to time to confirm they load and eject correctly.

no one "blazes away".. It's not even allowed at the range that I go to... "rapid fire" is not allowed, if that's what you mean. Controlled, safe firing only.

Where do you guys get your information about gun culture? Maybe go to a range and rent a gun and take their complimentary lesson. Talk to others around there.

It's like me coming here and saying Atheists don't believe in anything... or they want to eat kittens... or are just angry at god... No, I took the time to learn about them... you should have the same level of courtesy before engaging on a topic.

 

[Jarhyn]

Where did I argue against an investigation? I make my living on investigations for fuck's sake. I have personally performed about 12 investigations this week. 2 may continue into next week. of those, neither is likely to go anywhere, but might. The remaining 10 were closed within a few hours, as they were confirmed benign... like how someone said they bought lots of fertilizer for a good reason.. that is the type of thing I might find out for the lead investigator to close out the investigation. "Trust but verify"... everything.
This is what law enforcement does... they investigate everything that has POTENTIAL to be a threat. Quietly, and discreetly.
In my former job I followed people around for a living to confirm certain allegations.... 1 time out of 100's I had to make a confirming report.
One could say, statistically speaking, my job is to clear people of claims of wrongdoing.


A clip is a device used to hold cartridges and to charge a magazine more quickly... similar to a "quick loader". You don't load a clip into a gun, you charge a magazine with a clip. Is that what you meant to talk about, or is your Hollywood-based education about guns getting in the way here?

Today's competition shooters are engaged in far different activities than the classic target shooters... they use standard magazines with modified springs (for reliability) that they can just drop on the ground during a three-gun competition or whatever. Regardless of the capacity of the mag, each round of three gun has an amount of ammo specified... I don't participate in that type of competition, but we are talking like a maximum of 5 rounds per station...

In skeet and sporting clay, you have a 2 cartridge maximum at a time.

There have been a lot of people in recent decades that were arrested for planning a terrorist attack. Many of those investigations started because they bought certain things.

Which of those who were convicted should be let go in your opinion?

I didn;t perform those investigations, so how should I know?

You guys put quite a lot of words in my mouth... It's your rabid racism, in my opinion. "What, you don't think all guns should be banned... how dare you say everyone should have a gun!!"
Exactly like how the reps are getting away with saying that you liberals only want "totally open boarders and no vetting at all!!!".. cept you libs don't know how to get away with it.

Yeah. Spout that bullshit.

The fact is, many posters here see it as I do: that guns should NOT be banned, but rather that we should legislate safe handling and liability concerns, where they must be stored securely and safely at all times, and not wielded as weapons, in public or private. If the Weapon is stolen, they become liable for any damages, and chargeable for some level of culpability in any crimes committed with the improperly secured firearm. Ideally, it should take more than 5-10 minutes to put hands on a firearm, regardless of the situation.

 

[Gun Nut]

Where did I argue against an investigation? I make my living on investigations for fuck's sake. I have personally performed about 12 investigations this week. 2 may continue into next week. of those, neither is likely to go anywhere, but might. The remaining 10 were closed within a few hours, as they were confirmed benign... like how someone said they bought lots of fertilizer for a good reason.. that is the type of thing I might find out for the lead investigator to close out the investigation. "Trust but verify"... everything.
This is what law enforcement does... they investigate everything that has POTENTIAL to be a threat. Quietly, and discreetly.
In my former job I followed people around for a living to confirm certain allegations.... 1 time out of 100's I had to make a confirming report.
One could say, statistically speaking, my job is to clear people of claims of wrongdoing.


A clip is a device used to hold cartridges and to charge a magazine more quickly... similar to a "quick loader". You don't load a clip into a gun, you charge a magazine with a clip. Is that what you meant to talk about, or is your Hollywood-based education about guns getting in the way here?

Today's competition shooters are engaged in far different activities than the classic target shooters... they use standard magazines with modified springs (for reliability) that they can just drop on the ground during a three-gun competition or whatever. Regardless of the capacity of the mag, each round of three gun has an amount of ammo specified... I don't participate in that type of competition, but we are talking like a maximum of 5 rounds per station...

In skeet and sporting clay, you have a 2 cartridge maximum at a time.

There have been a lot of people in recent decades that were arrested for planning a terrorist attack. Many of those investigations started because they bought certain things.

Which of those who were convicted should be let go in your opinion?

I didn;t perform those investigations, so how should I know?

You guys put quite a lot of words in my mouth... It's your rabid racism, in my opinion. "What, you don't think all guns should be banned... how dare you say everyone should have a gun!!"
Exactly like how the reps are getting away with saying that you liberals only want "totally open boarders and no vetting at all!!!".. cept you libs don't know how to get away with it.

Yeah. Spout that bullshit.

The fact is, many posters here see it as I do: that guns should NOT be banned, but rather that we should legislate safe handling and liability concerns, where they must be stored securely and safely at all times, and not wielded as weapons, in public or private. If the Weapon is stolen, they become liable for any damages, and chargeable for some level of culpability in any crimes committed with the improperly secured firearm. Ideally, it should take more than 5-10 minutes to put hands on a firearm, regardless of the situation.

What bullshit?

Do you feel that you should be liable for the damages done with your vehicle, in the event it is stolen? What about other weapons, like knives? Shall you serve time for murder because someone stole a knife from you and used it for a crime?

Medications are deadly at high doses... shall your heart medication "take more than 5 - 10 minutes to put hands on" them?

Do you guys make up all the new rules in your heads based on individual partial stories you hear third-hand? That is what got Trump elected.. resistance to this shit.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

No, what got Trump elected is that you're a country full of racists.

 

[Gun Nut]

No, what got Trump elected is that you're a country full of racists.

yes, and what motivated the racists to actually vote for a rich NY city slicker with a Jewish son-in-law and converted Jewish daughter was the belief that the liberals might actually try to make it illegal to smile at a woman, say a trigger word out loud, and force them into re-education camps to learn how to pray to Allah correctly... PC gone wild did it... to the racists... which is about a third of us.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yeah. Spout that bullshit.

The fact is, many posters here see it as I do: that guns should NOT be banned, but rather that we should legislate safe handling and liability concerns, where they must be stored securely and safely at all times, and not wielded as weapons, in public or private. If the Weapon is stolen, they become liable for any damages, and chargeable for some level of culpability in any crimes committed with the improperly secured firearm. Ideally, it should take more than 5-10 minutes to put hands on a firearm, regardless of the situation.

What bullshit?

Do you feel that you should be liable for the damages done with your vehicle, in the event it is stolen? What about other weapons, like knives? Shall you serve time for murder because someone stole a knife from you and used it for a crime?

Medications are deadly at high doses... shall your heart medication "take more than 5 - 10 minutes to put hands on" them?

Do you guys make up all the new rules in your heads based on individual partial stories you hear third-hand? That is what got Trump elected.. resistance to this shit.

Yes, if I have an improperly secured vehicle, I should be liable on some level for crimes committed arising from its theft. This is to prevent conveniently having a vehicle 'stolen' and later used in the commission of a crime, where the theft was actually an illegal/straw sale into the black market.

As to medications, you are drawing a false equivalence. Medications are generally not instantly and reliably deadly, and that they cannot be unilaterally deployed on another individual to those instant an deadly ends.

So, resistance to logical reasoning and game theory got trump elected? I could actually buy that people elect an idiot because they believe thinking about the actual implications of a situation in nature and how those translate to other real situations in nature, such as the immediacy and finality of flethality with regards to firearms leading to high rates of gun deaths, is difficult and painful

 

[Worldtraveller]

No, what got Trump elected is that you're a country full of racists.

"Only" a few million.

 

[Gun Nut]

if I have an improperly secured vehicle, I should be liable on some level for crimes committed arising from its theft.

This is the type of talk that got Trump elected.

This is to prevent conveniently having a vehicle 'stolen' and later used in the commission of a crime, where the theft was actually an illegal/straw sale into the black market.

It is nice to see you try to use the winning strategy the Reps use... good job. This is exactly like how we need Voter ID cards to be issued to stop all the voter fraud that almost got Hillary elected.

As to medications, you are drawing a false equivalence. Medications are generally not instantly and reliably deadly, and that they cannot be unilaterally deployed on another individual to those instant an deadly ends.

Not false. Perfect. Cars are not instantly nor reliably deadly (see the movie "Deathproof"). Cars cannot be deployed on another individual unles they happen to be standing somewhere you can drive up on.

So, resistance to logical reasoning and game theory got trump elected?

Yes, I think so, if I understand your terminology.

I could actually buy that people elect an idiot because they believe thinking about the actual implications of a situation in nature and how those translate to other real situations in nature, such as the immediacy and finality of flethality with regards to firearms leading to high rates of gun deaths, is difficult and painful

I could not wrap my stupid head around that last paragraph. whaaa?

 

[Jarhyn]

This is the type of talk that got Trump elected.


It is nice to see you try to use the winning strategy the Reps use... good job. This is exactly like how we need Voter ID cards to be issued to stop all the voter fraud that almost got Hillary elected.

As to medications, you are drawing a false equivalence. Medications are generally not instantly and reliably deadly, and that they cannot be unilaterally deployed on another individual to those instant an deadly ends.

Not false. Perfect. Cars are not instantly nor reliably deadly (see the movie "Deathproof"). Cars cannot be deployed on another individual unles they happen to be standing somewhere you can drive up on.

So, resistance to logical reasoning and game theory got trump elected?

Yes, I think so, if I understand your terminology.

I could actually buy that people elect an idiot because they believe thinking about the actual implications of a situation in nature and how those translate to other real situations in nature, such as the immediacy and finality of flethality with regards to firearms leading to high rates of gun deaths, is difficult and painful

I could not wrap my stupid head around that last paragraph. whaaa?

if you leave a gun where a child can reach it, and the hold shoots themselves or you or someone else, YOU are at fault. Security of dangerous objects is the responsibility of those who decide they need to own them. Period.

On your second 'point', again you draw false equivalence: voting as someone else is difficult and hazardous, and ultimately insane; you need to know an immense amount of data, you must travel a large distance in a short time, and you must know who is and is no planning to vote and in which district, and you only double your vote power. It is an unreasonable tactic, an one which does not need special safeguards for: the safeguard is the district roll, the poll monitors, and the intelligence o most people (except, I guess, for that idiot TRUMP supporter...)

As opposed to finding out who has a gun (easily done on Facebook), waiting till they go on vacation (also easily done via Facebook), and then you steal their shit so you can shoot someone without having to navigate gun registration. OR, you are the member or blackmailee of a gang, and you just buy a gun and have it "stolen". This is crime 101. Oh, did I have to mention that there are whole forums devoted to this kind of thing? You want a gun that isn't linked to you, you steal or buy one from a patsy.

Next, we weren't talking about cars in terms of your example. We are talking about your false equivalence of medication. The basis of my argument that guns need to be controlled from a public safety standpoint is that they allow lethal unilateral decisionmaking. Medications do not do this. as to cars, they don fit in this particular analogically argument; liability for actions taken with stolen property with a utility function conducive to crime is a separate analog. Your inability to parse the separation betweeen these two arguments is problematic. Maybe you should recuse yourself.

That idiots do not like using reason does not make your belief the equivalent of our reasoned positions. Your lack of thought is not sufficient to challenge given and due thought about the matter. No matter how many guns you stroke lovingly, no matter how much crusted semen may occupy your trigger well, this will not change the real relationships in nature which make allowing guns as public weapons problematic.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And should either of your examples apply?

My parents once bought hundreds of pounds of ammonium nitrate despite being suburban. (The stuff you make fertilizer bombs out of.) Terrorists? No--several years worth of plant food at a going out of business sale.

Likewise, pseudophedrine--before the crackdown I bought currently-illegal quantities more than once--when someone had a good sale.

Correct. It may be perfectly legitimate, but it still falls under the category of things which require investigation due to the potential danger. If there's a reasonable explanation like with your parents then no worries, but allowing mass murderers to build bombs with impunity in order to spare some innocents a few questions is a bad payoff.

It should be the same with high capacity magazines. Maybe some guy got them for a perfectly legitimate reason, but there's enough potential danger in somebody wanting them that it should require an investigation to see if there are any red flags there.

Well, there's a simple financial incentive for anyone serious about gun practice: For a given investment in magazines you can carry more rounds if you have larger magazines. Going to the range with all your rounds already loaded into magazines means you don't have to spend time (while you have rented a lane) reloading.