Guns are the problem?

[Jarhyn]

Right-to-Carry Laws and Firearm Workplace Homicides: A Longitudinal Analysis (1992–2017)

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2019.305307

Objectives. To examine the impact of right-to-carry (RTC) firearm laws on firearm workplace homicides (WPHs) in the United States from 1992 to 2017.

Methods. We employed 2 longitudinal methods to examine the average effect (pooled, cross-sectional, time-series analysis) and the state-specific effect (random effects meta-analysis) of RTC laws on WPHs committed by firearms from 1992 to 2017 in a 50-state panel. Both methods utilized a generalized linear mixed model with a negative binomial distribution.

Results. From 1992 to 2017, the average effect of having an RTC law was significantly associated with 29% higher rates of firearm WPHs (95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.14, 1.45). No other state-level policies were associated with firearm WPHs. Sensitivity analyses suggest robust findings. State-specific estimates suggest that passing an RTC law during our study period was significantly associated with 24% increase in firearm WPH rates (95% CI = 1.09, 1.40).

Conclusions. This is the first study to our knowledge to examine the link between RTC firearm laws and firearm WPHs. Findings indicate that RTC laws likely pose a threat to worker safety and contribute to the recent body of literature that finds RTC laws are associated with increased incidence of violence. (Am J Public Health. Published online ahead of print October 17, 2019: e1–e7. doi:10.2105/AJPH.2019.305307)

 

[ronburgundy]

No, you are missing the point.

I live in a country where you require a license not just to drive, but to also purchase a firearm. My opinion is that if you want to own a firearm, you should be put through an aptitude test much like a drivers license.

Crazy, I know, right?

I also think firearms should be treated like vehicles in the sense that if I have used a firearm irresponsibly (perhaps under the influence of alcohol), I should be disqualified from owning a firearm for a specific period of time. You,know, like a DUI.
I also think that firearm safety should be treated like an esafety or pink slip for a car in New South Wales. If you are a responsible gun owner, you have no less to fear than a responsible car owner. If you are an irresponsible car owner, you lose your privilege to drive. If you are an irresponsible gun owner you lose your right to own firearms. I'm surprised that this is controversial as apparently guns are less lethal than cars.
I also believe that a firearm registry should be as advanced as what one would receive at the RTA. In other words, If you get pulled over, a copper usually can determine if you own the car in a matter of minutes. For gun ownership it is 11 weeks minimum. That's bullshit.
Oh, and when I purchase a vehicle, I must also purchase [url-https://www.greenslips.com.au/calculator.html]Compulsory Third Party Insurance[/url].

So yes, I think that gun violence in the US would be fixed if only they treated firearms superior than what was used on Normandy D-Day with the same care and skepticism as they do vehicles.

A license to possess a gun is something I've suggested many times over the years. A registry of what guns you own I'm not fine with--history shows that's often a prelude to confiscation. How often does the cop need to quickly know if it's your gun or stolen? And note that just because a car doesn't come back as registered to the driver doesn't mean anything's wrong. The cop only cares if the car comes back as stolen. Likewise, guns have serial numbers, all the cop should care about is if the serial number comes back as stolen.

As for insurance, it's for accidents. The number of cases where insurance would pay is low. Mandatory insurance is another attempt to make guns expensive and get a backdoor list of all the guns out there.

The reason we need a gun registry (and annual inspections to verify possession) is that most guns in the black market and used in crimes where deliberately funnel there by legal gun owners who resold them into the grey market. Cutting off supply to the black market requires criminalizing all gun resales and enforcement of those crimes requires tracking purchases and registered ownership of every gun that is legally sold.

 

[Toni]

Except for the little detail that AR-15s and the like aren't responsible for very many murders.

Except when they are used to murder a huge number of people in a heavily populated location.

You are right though, usually they are just used by ammosexuals to achieve an erection, and to receive the resultant ejaculation. Again excepting the occasional mass murder.

You're still trying to confuse the issue by blaming assault rifles for the overall murder rate. Crime guns are overwhelmingly handguns.

Nope but nice try. He's pointing out that AR-15s and the like are the weapons of choice in many notable mass murders which make the national headlines. Less so in the types of mass murders where someone just decides to annihilate his or his wife's family while drunk and/or depressed and/or pissed off about virtually anything. Those types of mass murders tend to only make local news.

Still you are correct: Guns, all by themselves, are rarely responsible for deaths. So, as a compromise, how about we lock all the guns up in state gun lockers where they can be all by themselves and a danger to absolutely no one. Alternatively, how about we melt them down into plowshares or curtain rods or something useful?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason we need a gun registry (and annual inspections to verify possession) is that most guns in the black market and used in crimes where deliberately funnel there by legal gun owners who resold them into the grey market. Cutting off supply to the black market requires criminalizing all gun resales and enforcement of those crimes requires tracking purchases and registered ownership of every gun that is legally sold.

Problem: The street price of a gun is generally less than retail. Nobody's reselling them on the street in such a situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're still trying to confuse the issue by blaming assault rifles for the overall murder rate. Crime guns are overwhelmingly handguns.

Nope but nice try. He's pointing out that AR-15s and the like are the weapons of choice in many notable mass murders which make the national headlines. Less so in the types of mass murders where someone just decides to annihilate his or his wife's family while drunk and/or depressed and/or pissed off about virtually anything. Those types of mass murders tend to only make local news.

Still you are correct: Guns, all by themselves, are rarely responsible for deaths. So, as a compromise, how about we lock all the guns up in state gun lockers where they can be all by themselves and a danger to absolutely no one. Alternatively, how about we melt them down into plowshares or curtain rods or something useful?

Just because they are the dramatic cases doesn't mean banning them is the right approach.

Same as the FAA decided not to require infants to have their own seat. Yes, it would save lives in a crash--but it would mean more people who drove rather than flew, in practice more would die from such a rule than would be saved.

 

[Trausti]

You're still trying to confuse the issue by blaming assault rifles for the overall murder rate. Crime guns are overwhelmingly handguns.

Nope but nice try. He's pointing out that AR-15s and the like are the weapons of choice in many notable mass murders which make the national headlines. Less so in the types of mass murders where someone just decides to annihilate his or his wife's family while drunk and/or depressed and/or pissed off about virtually anything. Those types of mass murders tend to only make local news.

Still you are correct: Guns, all by themselves, are rarely responsible for deaths. So, as a compromise, how about we lock all the guns up in state gun lockers where they can be all by themselves and a danger to absolutely no one. Alternatively, how about we melt them down into plowshares or curtain rods or something useful?

Heh. You'll get gun sanctuary states and cities. Local government and law enforcement prohibited from cooperating with the feds. Reap what you sow, and all that.

 

[zorq]

The reason we need a gun registry (and annual inspections to verify possession) is that most guns in the black market and used in crimes where deliberately funnel there by legal gun owners who resold them into the grey market. Cutting off supply to the black market requires criminalizing all gun resales and enforcement of those crimes requires tracking purchases and registered ownership of every gun that is legally sold.

Problem: The street price of a gun is generally less than retail. Nobody's reselling them on the street in such a situation.

Problem: You didn't cite a source.

I'm sure dirty guns (guns that have been used during the communion of a crime) are less expensive than clean guns, but I suspect that clean guns sold to criminals on the street cost at least 25% more than retail. Gun smuggling is a major source of revenue for organized crime (gangs) and not just because they bypass taxes and paperwork.

PS: A link suggesting black market guns in the US are more expensive.
Forbes: Inside the black market for guns

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason we need a gun registry (and annual inspections to verify possession) is that most guns in the black market and used in crimes where deliberately funnel there by legal gun owners who resold them into the grey market. Cutting off supply to the black market requires criminalizing all gun resales and enforcement of those crimes requires tracking purchases and registered ownership of every gun that is legally sold.

Problem: The street price of a gun is generally less than retail. Nobody's reselling them on the street in such a situation.

Problem: You didn't cite a source.

I'm sure dirty guns (guns that have been used during the communion of a crime) are less expensive than clean guns, but I suspect that clean guns sold to criminals on the street cost at least 25% more than retail. Gun smuggling is a major source of revenue for organized crime (gangs) and not just because they bypass taxes and paperwork.

PS: A link suggesting black market guns in the US are more expensive.
Forbes: Inside the black market for guns

Try: https://abcnews.go.com/US/hot-guns-fueling-crime-us-study/story?id=18318610

 

[Gun Nut]

But I digress, we were talking about sensible regulation about an object that can cause more harm than what takes you to work everyday (see: vehicle)

Anti-gun folk REALLY hate the automobile argument... because it is a strong one.

with a single gallon of gasoline, I can run over thousands of people. With a single magazine of bullets, I can only kill a dozen. Cars hold more than ten gallons of fuel easily... tens of thousands of deaths potential, just so you can get to work everyday without messing up your hair.

No, you are missing the point.

I live in a country where you require a license not just to drive, but to also purchase a firearm. My opinion is that if you want to own a firearm, you should be put through an aptitude test much like a drivers license.

Crazy, I know, right?

I also think firearms should be treated like vehicles in the sense that if I have used a firearm irresponsibly (perhaps under the influence of alcohol), I should be disqualified from owning a firearm for a specific period of time. You,know, like a DUI.
I also think that firearm safety should be treated like an esafety or pink slip for a car in New South Wales. If you are a responsible gun owner, you have no less to fear than a responsible car owner. If you are an irresponsible car owner, you lose your privilege to drive. If you are an irresponsible gun owner you lose your right to own firearms. I'm surprised that this is controversial as apparently guns are less lethal than cars.
I also believe that a firearm registry should be as advanced as what one would receive at the RTA. In other words, If you get pulled over, a copper usually can determine if you own the car in a matter of minutes. For gun ownership it is 11 weeks minimum. That's bullshit.
Oh, and when I purchase a vehicle, I must also purchase [url-https://www.greenslips.com.au/calculator.html]Compulsory Third Party Insurance[/url].

So yes, I think that gun violence in the US would be fixed if only they treated firearms superior than what was used on Normandy D-Day with the same care and skepticism as they do vehicles.

I don't disagree with any of this.

 

[Gun Nut]

You're still trying to confuse the issue by blaming assault rifles for the overall murder rate. Crime guns are overwhelmingly handguns.

Nope but nice try. He's pointing out that AR-15s and the like are the weapons of choice in many notable mass murders which make the national headlines. Less so in the types of mass murders where someone just decides to annihilate his or his wife's family while drunk and/or depressed and/or pissed off about virtually anything. Those types of mass murders tend to only make local news.

Still you are correct: Guns, all by themselves, are rarely responsible for deaths. So, as a compromise, how about we lock all the guns up in state gun lockers where they can be all by themselves and a danger to absolutely no one. Alternatively, how about we melt them down into plowshares or curtain rods or something useful?

Heh. You'll get gun sanctuary states and cities. Local government and law enforcement prohibited from cooperating with the feds. Reap what you sow, and all that.

That's pretty funny, I admit... thing is, though, that the ATF / DEA is far better funded than ICE.. and they don't need any state "help" to swoop in and do their jobs.

 

[ronburgundy]

The reason we need a gun registry (and annual inspections to verify possession) is that most guns in the black market and used in crimes where deliberately funnel there by legal gun owners who resold them into the grey market. Cutting off supply to the black market requires criminalizing all gun resales and enforcement of those crimes requires tracking purchases and registered ownership of every gun that is legally sold.

Problem: The street price of a gun is generally less than retail. Nobody's reselling them on the street in such a situation.

"Street price" is the price after numerous transactions, numerous crimes the gun has been used in, and often after the gun went from one criminal to another via theft. All that lowers the price of a gun. Street price does not refer to the price that a legal gun buyer resells a brand new gun for to a person who cannot pass a background check or doesn't want the guns traceable to them. Also, many guns enter the black market from legal gun dealers who sell via legal loopholes without any background checks to criminals, which can be below new retail prices but still above the dealer's wholesale price.

Very few guns are smuggled into the US. So other than legal gun purchases being used to funnel into criminal hands, the only possible source of crime guns is theft from dealers and theft from those who legally bought the guns from a retailer. Those thefts would always be reported prior to gun winding up at a crime scene (guns that are only claimed "stolen" after they turn up at crime scenes are those resold by legal owners trying to cover their ass). The number of guns legit reported stolen prior to use in a crime are a fraction of the number of guns entering the black market each year, so the only logical possibility is that most of them are the result of legal dealers and buyers selling them to criminals, which they can legally do since there is no way to prove they knew the person was a criminal.

 

[Gun Nut]

... and in addition to the above...
Parts for guns can be sold without background checks, and then assembled at home with minimal tooling.
For example... on the AR-15 only one part, called the "lower receiver", is regulated as a "firearm"... the rest of the gun is just "plumbing supplies" more or less. You can 3D print the lower receiver, and legitimately buy all the rest of the parts without registration, certification, or licensing.

 

[Trausti]

... and in addition to the above...
Parts for guns can be sold without background checks, and then assembled at home with minimal tooling.
For example... on the AR-15 only one part, called the "lower receiver", is regulated as a "firearm"... the rest of the gun is just "plumbing supplies" more or less. You can 3D print the lower receiver, and legitimately buy all the rest of the parts without registration, certification, or licensing.

Well the government should be able to monitor and scrutinize our computers and bank accounts to make sure no one is a baddie. Government surveillance of all garages and basements may be necessary. For public safety, of course.

 

[ronburgundy]

... and in addition to the above...
Parts for guns can be sold without background checks, and then assembled at home with minimal tooling.
For example... on the AR-15 only one part, called the "lower receiver", is regulated as a "firearm"... the rest of the gun is just "plumbing supplies" more or less. You can 3D print the lower receiver, and legitimately buy all the rest of the parts without registration, certification, or licensing.

Things which near zero criminals do or would do, which is why the criminals in every country that lacks easy access to manufactured guns rarely have guns, despite having just as easy access to such "do it yourself" means.

 

[Trausti]

... and in addition to the above...
Parts for guns can be sold without background checks, and then assembled at home with minimal tooling.
For example... on the AR-15 only one part, called the "lower receiver", is regulated as a "firearm"... the rest of the gun is just "plumbing supplies" more or less. You can 3D print the lower receiver, and legitimately buy all the rest of the parts without registration, certification, or licensing.

Things which near zero criminals do or would do, which is why the criminals in every country that lacks easy access to manufactured guns rarely have guns, despite having just as easy access to such "do it yourself" means.

E.g., Brazil.

 

[ronburgundy]

... and in addition to the above...
Parts for guns can be sold without background checks, and then assembled at home with minimal tooling.
For example... on the AR-15 only one part, called the "lower receiver", is regulated as a "firearm"... the rest of the gun is just "plumbing supplies" more or less. You can 3D print the lower receiver, and legitimately buy all the rest of the parts without registration, certification, or licensing.

Things which near zero criminals do or would do, which is why the criminals in every country that lacks easy access to manufactured guns rarely have guns, despite having just as easy access to such "do it yourself" means.

E.g., Brazil.

Brazil has massive amount of unregulated guns. The country is controlled by organized crime with aid from a corrupt government. Are you dumb enough to suggest that Brazilian street gangs are 3D printing their guns at home?
Instead of making fallacious comparisons to third world countries, try other first world democracies like virtually all countries in western Europe where there is some semblance of rule of law and democracy. Their crime rates are just as high or near that of the US, yet their murder rates are 10 times lower, as are their rates of using a gun during a crime. That's b/c despite having as many criminals, and despite those criminals not having access to guns from an unregulated legal market like the US, and despite have all the same ability and tech to make their own guns, their criminals are not doing it b/c it's just not a plausible thing that your average criminal is going to do.

 

[zorq]

Forbes: Inside the black market for guns

Try: https://abcnews.go.com/US/hot-guns-fueling-crime-us-study/story?id=18318610

Your link doesn't distinguish between dirty and clean guns. Clean guns on the street run at a premium. Dirty guns are going to be dirt cheep. Only idiots will risk someone else's murder getting pinned on them.

Maybe read my article too.

If anything your article indicates that easy access to guns IS a major problem. This undercuts your OP. The white market IS the primary source for black market guns. Criminals can't steal or "find" guns that law abiding citizens don't have access to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Forbes: Inside the black market for guns

Try: https://abcnews.go.com/US/hot-guns-fueling-crime-us-study/story?id=18318610

Your link doesn't distinguish between dirty and clean guns. Clean guns on the street run at a premium. Dirty guns are going to be dirt cheep. Only idiots will risk someone else's murder getting pinned on them.

Maybe read my article too.

If anything your article indicates that easy access to guns IS a major problem. This undercuts your OP. The white market IS the primary source for black market guns. Criminals can't steal or "find" guns that law abiding citizens don't have access to.

Junkie steals gun, junkie sells gun. That greatly drives down the street price of guns.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

... and in addition to the above...
Parts for guns can be sold without background checks, and then assembled at home with minimal tooling.
For example... on the AR-15 only one part, called the "lower receiver", is regulated as a "firearm"... the rest of the gun is just "plumbing supplies" more or less. You can 3D print the lower receiver, and legitimately buy all the rest of the parts without registration, certification, or licensing.

Things which near zero criminals do or would do, which is why the criminals in every country that lacks easy access to manufactured guns rarely have guns, despite having just as easy access to such "do it yourself" means.

3D printing a lower receiver is beyond home technology at present.

What is possible is machining one. Not long ago it looked like we finally had a case of a mass shooter who would have been stopped by universal background checks--but it turned out the gun he purchased was one of these machined + parts guns. As those are completely illegal to sell it wouldn't have made a difference.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Very few guns are smuggled into the US. So other than legal gun purchases being used to funnel into criminal hands, the only possible source of crime guns is theft from dealers and theft from those who legally bought the guns from a retailer. Those thefts would always be reported prior to gun winding up at a crime scene (guns that are only claimed "stolen" after they turn up at crime scenes are those resold by legal owners trying to cover their ass). The number of guns legit reported stolen prior to use in a crime are a fraction of the number of guns entering the black market each year, so the only logical possibility is that most of them are the result of legal dealers and buyers selling them to criminals, which they can legally do since there is no way to prove they knew the person was a criminal.

And what's the source for the number of guns reported stolen? Who is even keeping track? And there's no requirement to report a theft, if you're not going to file an insurance claim there's little reason to report it.