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Hamas or Israel? Which One to Cheer For?

I like to go for the smart side, which is a real problem in this conflict. It seems to be a long standing series of bad moves by both sides. The only reason Israel still exists is because they are outnumbered, which arithmetically increased the number of bad moves the other side could make. If there had ever been a true unified and cooperative effort by the Arab countries, Israel would have been fold up long ago.

It is a strange paradox, but the kind of skill and talent which propels a man to become head of state of an Arab Middle Eastern country is not the same set required to be an international leader. Jordan, Syria, and Egypt could have pushed Israel into the Mediterranean Sea anytime between 1960 and 1980, but never managed proper coordination of forces. This allowed Israel to face the different forces separately and with each armed conflict, come out in an advantageous position.

In this conflict, there is no smart side, just a dumb and slightly dumber side. Israel is a liberal democracy(for lack of a better term), which means it cannot support a long term military action unless two conditions are met. First, there must be some tangible results, second, losses must be minimal. On the one hand, the people demand the government keep them safe, on the other hand, it demands the cost not be too great. The worst thing Israel could do is give the Palestinian people a sense of hopelessness, which drives them to support extremists.

Hamas does not have these constraints. Any serious political opposition to their strategy will quickly become a casualty. This allows them to operate at the extreme end of the spectrum and appear to have the people's support. This allows them to do dumber things, without cost restraints the Israeli government feels.
 
A lot of people pick sides in sports and this whole Israel v. Hamas match have a lot of people excited. There are so many heroic acts and martyrs I was wondering how do I choose which team to root for? Being in the Midwest, many of my friends are all like, "Rah-rah-rah! Ski-U-Hamas"! while others are "Is-ri-ale! Is-ri-ale! I-rah-rah! Fight! Fight!" So I'm not sure which side to choose. I wish it was the Packers v. Bears, because that would be easy.

That is to say this game has been going on for pert near 70 years and both teams are really good at it.

We have some very passionate supporters of both sides here. How do you decide who to root for? and which team should I root for?

Neither if it is a military conflict; both if it is a proper dialogue aiming at a peaceful solution.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
It is a peculiar American idea that when we see a conflict one of them MUST be the good guy and the other MUST be the bad guy.

Sometimes both sides are bad.

Furthermore, a "side" isn't some monolithic entity presenting a single ideology or opinion. When millions of people are involved it will inevitably be far more complicated than "good versus bad".

Well said, both of you.

QFT
This is a thread about Israel/Palestine. Shouldn't everyone be throwing accusations of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia at each other, handwaving away anything that might undermine your position because it obviously comes from a blatantly biased source of Israeli/Palestinian propaganda, arguing over which historical minutiae justifies your sides actions, bickering about who threw the first punch and is to blame for everything that happened since, making the whole thing a simplistic fanatical terrorists vs. noble free democracy or belligerent expansionist zionist zealots vs. poor besieged people with no other course of action, etc. ?
 
I tend to like the underdog. Israel seems to have the upper hand and they have nukes and US foreign aid.

Yeah, a lot of people on here seem to look at it this way.

Underdog or on top says nothing about right or wrong.



Or do you support serial killers over cops?

Well if the serial killer has killed like 10 people vs 500 killed by the cop. I see no reason to support neither one, I support the Israeli and Palestinian people.

But I am arguing with someone that has the foreign policy acumen of a cujcussed George Bush and less military experience.
 
Here's the thing...

If you're rooting for Israel, you're kinda rooting for Hamas as well.

Israel needs Hamas. The existence of that organization in Gaza is used by Israel as a justification for the collective punishment inflicted upon that strip of land. On the other end of the wall, in the other "occupied" territory (what's left of it, anyway) there is an organization that once had the exact same goals as Hamas. An outfit that once engaged in terrorism against Israel. The PLO still exists (known now as Fatah), is peaceful, and can lay claim to being the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people. If Hamas went belly up tomorrow, Netanyahu would have to deal with Fatah.

Israel ain't got time for none of that. They need a little war with "terrorists" every now and then or their whole "poor persecuted Israel" act wears thin. And this is a little war. The IDF is powerful enough to make what's currently happening in Gaza look like a sunny summer day in Tel Aviv. They could crush Hamas in short order. Yet they don't and they won't. They never do.

Rest assured this latest incursion into Gaza will be temporary and Hamas will be left standing. Gotta have an opponent for the next round, after all.
 
Here's the thing...

If you're rooting for Israel, you're kinda rooting for Hamas as well.

Israel needs Hamas. The existence of that organization in Gaza is used by Israel as a justification for the collective punishment inflicted upon that strip of land. On the other end of the wall, in the other "occupied" territory (what's left of it, anyway) there is an organization that once had the exact same goals as Hamas. An outfit that once engaged in terrorism against Israel. The PLO still exists (known now as Fatah), is peaceful, and can lay claim to being the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people. If Hamas went belly up tomorrow, Netanyahu would have to deal with Fatah.

Israel ain't got time for none of that. They need a little war with "terrorists" every now and then or their whole "poor persecuted Israel" act wears thin. And this is a little war. The IDF is powerful enough to make what's currently happening in Gaza look like a sunny summer day in Tel Aviv. They could crush Hamas in short order. Yet they don't and they won't. They never do.

Rest assured this latest incursion into Gaza will be temporary and Hamas will be left standing. Gotta have an opponent for the next round, after all.

I would narrow it down to the extremists of both sides are interacting with each other. The invasion into GAZA gave HAMAS a boost when its popularity was at an all time low.
At the moment Hamas is the democratically elected party of the people and may possibly win another election if it were held just after the Israelis pull out.
 
Here's the thing...

If you're rooting for Israel, you're kinda rooting for Hamas as well.

Israel needs Hamas. The existence of that organization in Gaza is used by Israel as a justification for the collective punishment inflicted upon that strip of land. On the other end of the wall, in the other "occupied" territory (what's left of it, anyway) there is an organization that once had the exact same goals as Hamas. An outfit that once engaged in terrorism against Israel. The PLO still exists (known now as Fatah), is peaceful, and can lay claim to being the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people. If Hamas went belly up tomorrow, Netanyahu would have to deal with Fatah.

Israel ain't got time for none of that. They need a little war with "terrorists" every now and then or their whole "poor persecuted Israel" act wears thin. And this is a little war. The IDF is powerful enough to make what's currently happening in Gaza look like a sunny summer day in Tel Aviv. They could crush Hamas in short order. Yet they don't and they won't. They never do.

Rest assured this latest incursion into Gaza will be temporary and Hamas will be left standing. Gotta have an opponent for the next round, after all.

I would narrow it down to the extremists of both sides are interacting with each other. The invasion into GAZA gave HAMAS a boost when its popularity was at an all time low.
At the moment Hamas is the democratically elected party of the people and may possibly win another election if it were held just after the Israelis pull out.
Oh please, Hamas could not be described as "democratically elected party of the people" since the coup in 2007. And their term has expired since 2011. Hamas fighters are not loyal to the Palestinian Authority, they are loyal to Hamas only.

Hamas will never submit to elections unless it knows it's going to win.
 
I would narrow it down to the extremists of both sides are interacting with each other. The invasion into GAZA gave HAMAS a boost when its popularity was at an all time low.
At the moment Hamas is the democratically elected party of the people and may possibly win another election if it were held just after the Israelis pull out.
Oh please, Hamas could not be described as "democratically elected party of the people" since the coup in 2007. And their term has expired since 2011. Hamas fighters are not loyal to the Palestinian Authority, they are loyal to Hamas only.

Hamas will never submit to elections unless it knows it's going to win.

Hamas won the election in 2006 with a decisive majority. It formed a short lived coalition with FATAH shortly after but these factions fought each other. Fatah nor Hamas have held elections since 2006.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...niyeh-offered-compromise-with-israel-1.257213

If this and other reports are right, HAMAS agreed to recognize Israel (within the pre 1967 borders) in a letter to Bush; Bush never replied.

This based on the report a possible peace initiative was ignored.
 
Oh please, Hamas could not be described as "democratically elected party of the people" since the coup in 2007. And their term has expired since 2011. Hamas fighters are not loyal to the Palestinian Authority, they are loyal to Hamas only.

Hamas will never submit to elections unless it knows it's going to win.

Hamas won the election in 2006 with a decisive majority. It formed a short lived coalition with FATAH shortly after but these factions fought each other. Fatah nor Hamas have held elections since 2006.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...niyeh-offered-compromise-with-israel-1.257213

If this and other reports are right, HAMAS agreed to recognize Israel (within the pre 1967 borders) in a letter to Bush; Bush never replied.

This based on the report a possible peace initiative was ignored.

That's Haaretz, not very credible.

It looks like it's a very vague reference to a proposal from some in Hamas (but it doesn't appear to be an official proposal) that would give 67 borders in exchange for Hamas, but only Hamas, not attacking. Attacks by other groups in Gaza were specifically permitted, Israeli retaliation against those other groups was specifically not permitted.

In other words, a non-starter.
 
I would root for those who were sincerely and seriously working towards peace. At this time, none of the parties meet that criteria.
 
I would root for those who were sincerely and seriously working towards peace. At this time, none of the parties meet that criteria.

The terrorists don't want peace.

Israel knows that peace isn't going to happen no matter what they do so it's not worth a lot of effort.
 
I would root for those who were sincerely and seriously working towards peace. At this time, none of the parties meet that criteria.

The terrorists don't want peace.

Neither does Israel.

Peace would mean an end to the expansion of their territory. An end to settlement activity. An end (possibly) to the occupation.

Even if an agreement was brokered that set the boundaries of the state at the present borders, Israel would ultimately reject it.

Israel will only declare "peace" when they've annexed all the land in the West Bank and Gaza.
 
I would root for those who were sincerely and seriously working towards peace. At this time, none of the parties meet that criteria.

The terrorists don't want peace.
The terrorists and extremists on both sides don't want peace.
Israel knows that peace isn't going to happen no matter what they do so it's not worth a lot of effort.
"Israel" knows nothing . Peace will require extraordinary patience, willpower and leadership for all parties - qualities lacking in both parties. Your response is the usual kneejerk reaction of the bloodthirsty and the hopeless.
 
I'm sick of backing losers. I'm going for the one NOT throwing the rock. What the fuck does this guy think he's going to achieve? Dumbass.

5_ boy and tank 2.jpeg
 
OF course, if the aim of Hamas is to simply overwhelm the enemy with force of numbers (quiverfull movement?!) then maybe I'll have to change my position. Back the winner is my philosophy.


wwz-zombie-ant-hill.jpg
 
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