Harvard university police declare that 18% of reported rapes are false or baseless

[Axulus]

The answer to Derec is that we must make any crime that is only 4/5 of the time true automatically dismissed. I think under those parameters there would be no murder convictions, no robbery convictions, no assault convictions, no terrorist convictions, etc. Yea for the rule of Law ala Derec.

Now that that's settled all we need to do is figure a way for Derec to post red herrings.

Can you link a quote from Derec claiming that rape accusations should be automatically dismissed?

 

[whichphilosophy]

I'd say that if the number of false or baseless allegations for a crime is 20%, then you've got a serious fucking problem with way too many false and baseless accusations.

Then it means 80% would possibly be true.

 

[arkirk]

The answer to Derec is that we must make any crime that is only 4/5 of the time true automatically dismissed. I think under those parameters there would be no murder convictions, no robbery convictions, no assault convictions, no terrorist convictions, etc. Yea for the rule of Law ala Derec.

Now that that's settled all we need to do is figure a way for Derec to post red herrings.

Can you link a quote from Derec claiming that rape accusations should be automatically dismissed?

You too can be lumped in that 18%! I must admit that when I read the first part of the OP...."Harvard University police declare..." I could see er smell this coming. Just in case Derec can't find another one, I have taken the liberty to bring one here. The problem is endemic in the Ivy League. I believe kippers are more a commoner's thing....

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'd say that if the number of false or baseless allegations for a crime is 20%, then you've got a serious fucking problem with way too many false and baseless accusations.

Then it means 80% would possibly be true.

Fair point. I completely missed that complex math.

Setting aside derails to make overly pedantic points about the blatantly obvious, do you feel that having one in five accusations of a crime be baseless or false is too high a number, too low a number or just about where that should be?

 

[arkirk]

Then it means 80% would possibly be true.

Fair point. I completely missed that complex math.

Setting aside derails to make overly pedantic points about the blatantly obvious, do you feel that having one in five accusations of a crime be baseless or false is too high a number, too low a number or just about where that should be?

I do not find that number too out of line considering that people when they are upset for all sorts of reasons may or may not think some kind of crime is being done to them. I would say an 80% average for these accusations would actually be quite high.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Fair point. I completely missed that complex math.

Setting aside derails to make overly pedantic points about the blatantly obvious, do you feel that having one in five accusations of a crime be baseless or false is too high a number, too low a number or just about where that should be?

I do not find that number too out of line considering that people when they are upset for all sorts of reasons may or may not think some kind of crime is being done to them. I would say an 80% average for these accusations would actually be quite high.

Fair point. It is only six people, after all, so it's not like it's indicative of some kind of problem.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I do not find that number too out of line considering that people when they are upset for all sorts of reasons may or may not think some kind of crime is being done to them. I would say an 80% average for these accusations would actually be quite high.

Fair point. It is only six people, after all, so it's not like it's indicative of some kind of problem.

But isn't the hub bub about cases where it was considered to have happened, but the female was lying (women do lie about rape, I read about it once on the Internet somewhere)? If the police found the claim to be baseless, that isn't exactly a problem, other than the baseless accusation.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Fair point. It is only six people, after all, so it's not like it's indicative of some kind of problem.

But isn't the hub bub about cases where it was considered to have happened, but the female was lying (women do lie about rape, I read about it once on the Internet somewhere)? If the police found the claim to be baseless, that isn't exactly a problem, other than the baseless accusation.

Or it demonstrates a problem with how the police are part of the same oppressive patriarchy which trivializes the problems associated with violence against women.

When a black man is accused of a crime, the cops have no problem just gunning him down on the spot, but as soon as a rich white guy is pointed to, all of a sudden the police "can't find any evidence".

It's bullshit is what it is.

 

[Shadowy Man]

You don't go into any of these thinking the man is innocent, you think that the accuser is lying.

Technically, this is the logical consequence of an "innocent until proven guilty" ideology. If someone is accused of a crime, but we are to assume that they are innocent don't we by necessity have to assume the accusation is false until proven true?

 

[arkirk]

But isn't the hub bub about cases where it was considered to have happened, but the female was lying (women do lie about rape, I read about it once on the Internet somewhere)? If the police found the claim to be baseless, that isn't exactly a problem, other than the baseless accusation.

Or it demonstrates a problem with how the police are part of the same oppressive patriarchy which trivializes the problems associated with violence against women.

When a black man is accused of a crime, the cops have no problem just gunning him down on the spot, but as soon as a rich white guy is pointed to, all of a sudden the police "can't find any evidence".

It's bullshit is what it is.

That's why I was so suspicious of the thread when it started "Harvard university police declare..." An easy way out of uncomfortable situations where the over privileged are brought before the bar of justice. Just claim the rape charges are baseless at the police station and it goes away. A handy option for these cops that can eventually even be rewarding financially (under the table of course).

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Or it demonstrates a problem with how the police are part of the same oppressive patriarchy which trivializes the problems associated with violence against women.

When a black man is accused of a crime, the cops have no problem just gunning him down on the spot, but as soon as a rich white guy is pointed to, all of a sudden the police "can't find any evidence".

It's bullshit is what it is.

That's why I was so suspicious of the thread when it started "Harvard university police declare..." An easy way out of uncomfortable situations where the over privileged are brought before the bar of justice. Just claim the rape charges are baseless at the police station and it goes away. A handy option for these cops that can eventually even be rewarding financially (under the table of course).

Exactly. I don't know the details of the six cases in question so I'm hesitant to take a position on them but, that being said, I'm taking the position that all six involved students who's fathers are on the university's board of directors and they pressured the campus police to tank the investigations. There's a different justice system for the 1% - in that there's no justice system for them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You don't go into any of these thinking the man is innocent, you think that the accuser is lying.

Technically, this is the logical consequence of an "innocent until proven guilty" ideology. If someone is accused of a crime, but we are to assume that they are innocent don't we by necessity have to assume the accusation is false until proven true?

It isn't that black and white. An accuser is usually just one part of a trial. In general, the case needs to establish the veracity of the charges and the guilt of the charged. There isn't a sense that the accuser is lying, but rather, the accusers story needs to be verified and proven. You really need to go in with a clean slate.

 

[fromderinside]

Can you link a quote from Derec claiming that rape accusations should be automatically dismissed?

I was going to respond but instead I'm referring you to arkirk's post instead.

arkirk's post" http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...se-or-baseless&p=209038&viewfull=1#post209038

He puts it much better. He even shows the object.

 

[fromderinside]

Yes King. Its a problem with presumption of innocence unless black and there's a gun handy - maybe a rope for those in the old confederacy - in 'Merica's justice system.

This case is closed!

Oops. there's still that problem of not testing rape kits though ...

Back on watch King.

 

[JonA]

As long as there is mattress girl, all rape cases should be assumed to be lying bitches.

In a sense, yes.

Due process means the accused is assumed "innocent until proven guilty", which is another way of saying we assume they did not commit the crime until it can be proven that they did.

What follows from this is the presumption that the accusation is false.

And we call someone who makes a false accusation a liar.

So, yes, assuming the accuser to be a liar seems the only just position, not just in some cases but in all of them.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Then it means 80% would possibly be true.

Fair point. I completely missed that complex math.

Setting aside derails to make overly pedantic points about the blatantly obvious, do you feel that having one in five accusations of a crime be baseless or false is too high a number, too low a number or just about where that should be?

It's better to see the conviction rates. There are a lot of alleged rapes(real or not) that go unreported. We can do better of course re define rape as sex outside of marriage as they do in some Islamic countries.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Fair point. I completely missed that complex math.

Setting aside derails to make overly pedantic points about the blatantly obvious, do you feel that having one in five accusations of a crime be baseless or false is too high a number, too low a number or just about where that should be?

It's better to see the conviction rates. There are a lot of alleged rapes(real or not) that go unreported. We can do better of course re define rape as sex outside of marriage as they do in some Islamic countries.

Psst WP are you in the US now?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Technically, this is the logical consequence of an "innocent until proven guilty" ideology. If someone is accused of a crime, but we are to assume that they are innocent don't we by necessity have to assume the accusation is false until proven true?

It isn't that black and white. An accuser is usually just one part of a trial. In general, the case needs to establish the veracity of the charges and the guilt of the charged. There isn't a sense that the accuser is lying, but rather, the accusers story needs to be verified and proven. You really need to go in with a clean slate.

Fair enough. An accusation isn't considered false and thrown out, even if we assume the accused is innocent. The first step is to determine the plausibility of the accusation. Then, if plausible, proceed to attempting to prove the accusation.

 

[atrib]

The answer to Derec is that we must make any crime that is only 4/5 of the time true automatically dismissed. I think under those parameters there would be no murder convictions, no robbery convictions, no assault convictions, no terrorist convictions, etc. Yea for the rule of Law ala Derec.

Now that that's settled all we need to do is figure a way for Derec to post red herrings.

Derec demands an extreme standard of justice when it comes to men accused of rape or expelled from an institution because they were accused of rape, yet he is unwilling to hold police officers to the same standard of justice when they kill or assault unarmed black people on the streets on a routine basis.

 

[fromderinside]

Fair enough. An accusation isn't considered false and thrown out, even if we assume the accused is innocent. The first step is to determine the plausibility of the accusation. Then, if plausible, proceed to attempting to prove the accusation.

So what we are doing here is piddling about whether if four out of five accusations are legit we should assume it is correct to have 40% of rapes not being reported and of those what are reported only about 15% of submitted for trial are ever tried and only about 10 of those result in declarations of not guilty by juries.

Just trying to be clear here.

OK. Go ahead with your high tea.