Hate begets Hate: "Scholar" says Palestinian civilians are legimate targets because they voted in Hamas

[fromderinside]

Gee its kinda like Sister Theresa's organization except that rather than bringing those in need to God, giving them a sense of worth, and teaching love and forgiveness, victims are taught to focus on hating others, killing them, and getting rewards in Heaven for doing so. Just those few teenie weenie differences and we call them terrorists. Wow.

 

[untermensche]

You mean Mother Theresa?

You should read some of what Christopher Hitchens had to say about her.

 

[Jayjay]

I call bullshit. Show me a single Palestinian who says he supports Hamas because of the "humanitarian" services, but disagrees about the rockets.

You want me to bring one to your home?

A poll result or anecdotal evidence in form of interviews would do.

I suspect a lot of the "charity" work that Hamas does is actually contingent on being Hamas supporter. The same wikipedia article you linked to mentions that if parents want to sign up their kids to Hamas-owned schools, they have to pledge allegiance to Hamas for example. And that a lot of the charity goes to supporting families of Hamas members, and non-Hamas supporters get less.

In any case the fact that Hamas is using charity as a good PR, to indoctrinate people and support their militants is fucked up to the core. As the most recent conflict shows, lot of the Hamas owned hsopitals and schools and mosques doubled as weapons caches.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You want me to bring one to your home?

A poll result or anecdotal evidence in form of interviews would do.

I suspect a lot of the "charity" work that Hamas does is actually contingent on being Hamas supporter. The same wikipedia article you linked to mentions that if parents want to sign up their kids to Hamas-owned schools, they have to pledge allegiance to Hamas for example. And that a lot of the charity goes to supporting families of Hamas members, and non-Hamas supporters get less.

In any case the fact that Hamas is using charity as a good PR, to indoctrinate people and support their militants is fucked up to the core. As the most recent conflict shows, lot of the Hamas owned hsopitals and schools and mosques doubled as weapons caches.

It's also worth pointing out that Palestinians are required by law to serve for three years in the military unless they get an exemption for in-depth religious studies or are physically infirm. Even women are required to serve with the militants for at least two years. in that kind of environment, there's really no such thing as a civilian target.

 

[steve_bnk]

The hate has metastasized on both sides. Generations on both sides are born into the conflict and know nothing else.

The obvious, if Palestinians are legitimate targets then so are Israeli civilians.

The Hague Conventions that dates to the 1800s seeks to limit the chaos and destruction of war by establishing rules for war. The rules were based on traditional European land wars.

In WWII neither the Allies nor the Axis adhered to the conventions of combat and civilians.

In the case of Gaza Hamas is an organized military force without a command and control structure, and out of any uniform which is a violation of rules of war. Hamas has intentionally targeted Israeli civilians. Shooting RPGs at an Israeli school bus. The past bombings in Israel.

Whether Palestinian and Israeli civilians are legitimate targets is a subjective moral question.

It was a similar problem in the Vietnam War. At one point we had 'free fire ones' where anything that was seen was a target. Buildings, farm animals, and people.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fire_zone#World_War_II.2C_Yeager

'...General Chuck Yeager in his autobiography describes his (and his associates) disapproval of shoot-anything-that-moves low level strafing missions during World War II (although they were not necessarily called "free-fire-zone" missions). He described his feeling that, had the U.S. lost the war, it might have been considered a criminal activity...'

 

[untermensche]

You want me to bring one to your home?

A poll result or anecdotal evidence in form of interviews would do.

Here's a recent poll.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/washingtoninstitute/14504851925/in/photostream/
70% of the people in Gaza think Hamas should maintain a ceasefire. In other words 70% are opposed to the rockets.

57% think that Hamas should renounce violence.

The majority of the people in Gaza are opposed to the rockets.

What more do you need?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why the fuck would anyone support Hamas if not for the rockets? What else do they do? The rockets and the suicide bombers and the kidnappings are Hamas' raison d'etre.

Are you joking?

Hamas does a great deal of humanitarian work. That is why they are supported.

We'll rebuild your house and use it to store rockets isn't humanitarian.

And much of the other aid they provide is incoming aid they simply stole and distribute under their name rather than where it really came from.

 

[untermensche]

Are you joking?

Hamas does a great deal of humanitarian work. That is why they are supported.

We'll rebuild your house and use it to store rockets isn't humanitarian.

Nor is it something that has ever happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I call bullshit. Show me a single Palestinian who says he supports Hamas because of the "humanitarian" services, but disagrees about the rockets.

You want me to bring one to your home?

Here's a excerpt from the Wiki article on Hamas.

Hamas is popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare wing providing social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories. Such services are not generally provided by the Palestinian Authority. Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.[58]

Maybe if you count the number of actions. It certainly isn't by budget.

- - - Updated - - -

You mean Mother Theresa?

You should read some of what Christopher Hitchens had to say about her.

Yeah, that was my first thought also.

 

[untermensche]

You want me to bring one to your home?

Here's a excerpt from the Wiki article on Hamas.

Hamas is popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare wing providing social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories. Such services are not generally provided by the Palestinian Authority. Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.[58]

Maybe if you count the number of actions. It certainly isn't by budget.

From what crevice of your body was this pulled from?

 

[Jayjay]

A poll result or anecdotal evidence in form of interviews would do.

Here's a recent poll.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/washingtoninstitute/14504851925/in/photostream/
70% of the people in Gaza think Hamas should maintain a ceasefire. In other words 70% are opposed to the rockets.

57% think that Hamas should renounce violence.

The majority of the people in Gaza are opposed to the rockets.

What more do you need?

Interesting. I'd chalk it up to Hamas losing support, but based on other polls it seems Hamas's approval rating in Gaza is over 50%. I stand corrected.

 

[untermensche]

Here's a recent poll.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/washingtoninstitute/14504851925/in/photostream/
70% of the people in Gaza think Hamas should maintain a ceasefire. In other words 70% are opposed to the rockets.

57% think that Hamas should renounce violence.

The majority of the people in Gaza are opposed to the rockets.

What more do you need?

Interesting. I'd chalk it up to Hamas losing support, but based on other polls it seems Hamas's approval rating in Gaza is over 50%. I stand corrected.

Why don't you just chalk it up to the fact that the Palestinians are simply normal humans that if given the chance to raise their children in peace free from external oppression they will gladly take it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A poll result or anecdotal evidence in form of interviews would do.

Here's a recent poll.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/washingtoninstitute/14504851925/in/photostream/
70% of the people in Gaza think Hamas should maintain a ceasefire. In other words 70% are opposed to the rockets.

57% think that Hamas should renounce violence.

The majority of the people in Gaza are opposed to the rockets.

What more do you need?

The world media rarely reports the whole story. Here's a better picture of their attitudes:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...stinians-reject-2-state-solution-survey-finds

Admittedly a bit old but the deception remains.

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.

 

[untermensche]

Here's a recent poll.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/washingtoninstitute/14504851925/in/photostream/
70% of the people in Gaza think Hamas should maintain a ceasefire. In other words 70% are opposed to the rockets.

57% think that Hamas should renounce violence.

The majority of the people in Gaza are opposed to the rockets.

What more do you need?

The world media rarely reports the whole story. Here's a better picture of their attitudes:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...stinians-reject-2-state-solution-survey-finds

Admittedly a bit old but the deception remains.

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.

Those are questions about dreams. Egypt had similar dreams at one time, but they are easy to give up once you have sovereignty.

And Israel doesn't dream of taking more and more land from the Palestinians. It has actually been doing that for decades.

The reality is, most of the people in Gaza are opposed to violence and most would prefer non-violent resistance.

These are the people being bombed.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Here's a recent poll.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/washingtoninstitute/14504851925/in/photostream/
70% of the people in Gaza think Hamas should maintain a ceasefire. In other words 70% are opposed to the rockets.

57% think that Hamas should renounce violence.

The majority of the people in Gaza are opposed to the rockets.

What more do you need?

The world media rarely reports the whole story. Here's a better picture of their attitudes:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...stinians-reject-2-state-solution-survey-finds

Admittedly a bit old but the deception remains.

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.

58% of Americans want single-payer healthcare. That doesn't mean we're ever going to get it.

 

[Arctish]

The world media rarely reports the whole story. Here's a better picture of their attitudes:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...stinians-reject-2-state-solution-survey-finds

Admittedly a bit old but the deception remains.

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.

Those are questions about dreams. Egypt had similar dreams at one time, but they are easy to give up once you have sovereignty.

And Israel doesn't dream of taking more and more land from the Palestinians. It has actually been doing that for decades.

The reality is, most of the people in Gaza are opposed to violence and most would prefer non-violent resistance.

These are the people being bombed.

The dreams of the Palestinian people to have a Palestinian State in all of Palestine are a mirror image of the Zionist dream to have a Jewish State in all of Eretz Yisrael, aren't they?

What makes one perfectly acceptable and the other absolutely unreasonable?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The world media rarely reports the whole story. Here's a better picture of their attitudes:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...stinians-reject-2-state-solution-survey-finds

Admittedly a bit old but the deception remains.

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.

Those are questions about dreams. Egypt had similar dreams at one time, but they are easy to give up once you have sovereignty.

And Israel doesn't dream of taking more and more land from the Palestinians. It has actually been doing that for decades.

The reality is, most of the people in Gaza are opposed to violence and most would prefer non-violent resistance.

These are the people being bombed.

Egypt behaved when it had a moderate government. They were heading back towards war during their period of Islamist government.

The Palestinians have no moderate government.

- - - Updated - - -

The world media rarely reports the whole story. Here's a better picture of their attitudes:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...stinians-reject-2-state-solution-survey-finds

Admittedly a bit old but the deception remains.

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.

Those are questions about dreams. Egypt had similar dreams at one time, but they are easy to give up once you have sovereignty.

And Israel doesn't dream of taking more and more land from the Palestinians. It has actually been doing that for decades.

The reality is, most of the people in Gaza are opposed to violence and most would prefer non-violent resistance.

These are the people being bombed.

The dreams of the Palestinian people to have a Palestinian State in all of Palestine are a mirror image of the Zionist dream to have a Jewish State in all of Eretz Yisrael, aren't they?

What makes one perfectly acceptable and the other absolutely unreasonable?

Note that "all of Palestine" includes all of Israel.

 

[Arctish]

The dreams of the Palestinian people to have a Palestinian State in all of Palestine are a mirror image of the Zionist dream to have a Jewish State in all of Eretz Yisrael, aren't they?

What makes one perfectly acceptable and the other absolutely unreasonable?

Note that "all of Palestine" includes all of Israel.

I do note it, just as I note all of Eretz Yisrael is all of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza i.e. all of Palestine.

I also note you didn't answer the question when you responded to my post. The dreams of the Palestinian people to have a Palestinian State in all of Palestine are a mirror image of the Zionist dream to have a Jewish State in all of Eretz Yisrael. What makes one perfectly acceptable and the other absolutely unreasonable?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Note that "all of Palestine" includes all of Israel.

I do note it, just as I note all of Eretz Yisrael is all of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza i.e. all of Palestine.

I also note you didn't answer the question when you responded to my post. The dreams of the Palestinian people to have a Palestinian State in all of Palestine are a mirror image of the Zionist dream to have a Jewish State in all of Eretz Yisrael. What makes one perfectly acceptable and the other absolutely unreasonable?

Most Israelis accept coexistence. Most Palestinians don't.

 

[Jayjay]

I do note it, just as I note all of Eretz Yisrael is all of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza i.e. all of Palestine.

I also note you didn't answer the question when you responded to my post. The dreams of the Palestinian people to have a Palestinian State in all of Palestine are a mirror image of the Zionist dream to have a Jewish State in all of Eretz Yisrael. What makes one perfectly acceptable and the other absolutely unreasonable?

Most Israelis accept coexistence. Most Palestinians don't.

The Israeli acceptance of coexistence is result of Israel having its own state and security. In 1948 and before that, the Zionists weren't nearly as accepting. Heck, they even protested the British decision to split off Trans-Jordan because it reduced the future land for Eretz Yisrael!

There is no reason to think Palestinians wouldn't moderate their opinion once they have a secure, viable state of their own.