Hawaiian traditionalists against the Thirty Meter Telescope

[Derec]

The protest by Hawaiian traditionalists/creationists is heating up again, with a small (about 300) but vocal group of activists blocking the roads to prevent construction equipment to make it to the mountain, called "sacred" by the traditionalists, even though there already are telescopes up there.
TMT Mauna Kea Protests Heat Up: Site Of Thirty Meter Telescope Called ‘Sacred’ By Native Hawaiian Leaders

The telescope in question is the Thirty Meter Telescope, or TMT, and will be one of the biggest light telescopes in the world only smaller than the also under construction European Extremely Large Telescope in Chile, which would thus cover a different portion of the sky than the northern hemisphere TMT.

All this is reminiscent of the Mt. Graham Observatory controversy, where some Apache and radical ecomentalists tried to stop telescopes being built on an allegedly "sacred" mountain in Arizona.
Comparison of large telescope mirror sizes (note that some of them are already on Mauna Kea):

 

[barbos]

I blame Obama

 

[Keith&Co.]

An 'allegedly' sacred mountain?
What do you mean, allegedly? Are you dismissing their claims because you dismiss their religion, or because their religion doesn't actually hold that mountain sacred?

 

[credoconsolans]

Did these people protest when the mountain was first put into government hands?

 

[arkirk]

An 'allegedly' sacred mountain?
What do you mean, allegedly? Are you dismissing their claims because you dismiss their religion, or because their religion doesn't actually hold that mountain sacred?

Why would a giant human constructed eyeball constructed on a sacred mountain make it any less sacred? I think the origin of this dispute comes from what our government has done to indigenous peoples everywhere it went. I'll bet you can find some indigenous Hawaiians who want to peer into deep space from their sacred mountain. We are not a very religious lot here, but we can still be humanistic and extend to indigenous peoples enough consideration they don't feel their entire culture is being steamrolled out of existence. There should be a solution to this problem...possibly another mountain...possibly just a little bit of consideration for the Hawaiian people.

 

[repoman]

Nothing will happen from this protest.

 

[arkirk]

Nothing will happen from this protest.

I think you are right. Just saying we see this situation arising from giant projects all over the globe...and never adequately move to lessen the impact on indigenous people. They get treated as the enemy of all that is modern and good.

 

[Ford]

First off, we've got to get someone working on these names. "Extremely Large Telescope" is all well and good, but if built, the "Overwhelmingly Large Telescope" could only be topped by the "You've Gotta Be Kidding Me, Wow That Sucker's Huge" telescope.


All kidding aside, I'm torn.


As an astronomy nerd, I want the biggest telescope possible to be built in the best location possible. As a fan of the Hawaiian islands, I understand the need to balance development with maintaining the natural beauty of the place. Spend a couple days in Honolulu, then head over to Kauai where they deliberately avoided over development to see the difference.


And while "sacred mountain" really means "not in my backyard," I can understand why this could be controversial. If the mirror is the size of a basketball court, then the whole complex could very well be the size of an arena.

 

[Bronzeage]

An 'allegedly' sacred mountain?
What do you mean, allegedly? Are you dismissing their claims because you dismiss their religion, or because their religion doesn't actually hold that mountain sacred?

Maybe it's like the way marriage is sacred when it's politically convenient to be sacred, but not sacred when you want a divorce.

 

[tupac chopra]

It's hard to grasp when one holds nothing to be sacred I guess.
Derec where are you coming from? What are you trying to say?

 

[Keith&Co.]

First off, we've got to get someone working on these names. "Extremely Large Telescope" is all well and good, but if built, the "Overwhelmingly Large Telescope" could only be topped by the "You've Gotta Be Kidding Me, Wow That Sucker's Huge" telescope..

Well, we then get into the Big Fucking Telescope, the Fucking Big Telescope, the Your Momma's Telescope So Big It Can See Narnia, and the Significant Costs Even Compared To The US Military Budget Telescope.

 

[EricK]

It's hard to grasp when one holds nothing to be sacred I guess.
Derec where are you coming from? What are you trying to say?

Or maybe it's hard to grasp if there's no way to tell a sacred object from an otherwise identical but non-sacred object, except from the fact that someone says it's sacred.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Or maybe it's hard to grasp if there's no way to tell a sacred object from an otherwise identical but non-sacred object, except from the fact that someone says it's sacred.

Well, that's just it.
If the traditionalists say they hold it to be sacred, then that's as sacred as it gets. Unless Derec feels that this mountain is their version of the Invisible Pink Unicorn and they're just creating a fuss to create a fuss? Or if he disparages their entire religion, and the 'sacred' of the primitives isn't as 'sacred' as, say, a Christin site?

 

[Nexus]

As a fan of the Hawaiian islands, I understand the need to balance development with maintaining the natural beauty of the place. Spend a couple days in Honolulu, then head over to Kauai where they deliberately avoided over development to see the difference.

I agree with your comparison of Kauai vs Honolulu but Mauna Kea is just a barren Lava/dirt mound.

 

[Shadowy Man]

And while "sacred mountain" really means "not in my backyard," I can understand why this could be controversial. If the mirror is the size of a basketball court, then the whole complex could very well be the size of an arena.

It's well known what size the complex will be. Look up Thirty Meter Telescope on the internet for visualizations of the building. Modern astronomical observatories have telescopes that are well-packed inside of their domes, such that the domes aren't much bigger than the telescopes themselves. This is different from the old days when the telescopes used equatorial mounts. For example, the TMT website says that the dome diameter is 217 feet, while the Palmoar 200 inch telescope's dome is 137 feet in diameter.

 

[Archimedes]

First off, we've got to get someone working on these names. "Extremely Large Telescope" is all well and good, but if built, the "Overwhelmingly Large Telescope" could only be topped by the "You've Gotta Be Kidding Me, Wow That Sucker's Huge" telescope..

Well, we then get into the Big Fucking Telescope, the Fucking Big Telescope, the Your Momma's Telescope So Big It Can See Narnia, and the Significant Costs Even Compared To The US Military Budget Telescope.

 

[Shadowy Man]

[For example, the TMT website says that the dome diameter is 217 feet, while the Palmoar 200 inch telescope's dome is 137 feet in diameter.

I meant "Palomar"...

 

[Derec]

An 'allegedly' sacred mountain?
What do you mean, allegedly? Are you dismissing their claims because you dismiss their religion, or because their religion doesn't actually hold that mountain sacred?

"Allegedly" meaning according to the protesters.
I do suspect that this declaration of "every high hill" as "sacred" is at least somewhat disingenuous.

But even if their religion really holds this whole mountain sacred, should that really give them veto power over any construction on it? Should "indigenous" creationism trump scientific research? There is a lot of sympathy on the Left toward giving special consideration to such types of nonsense. I have mentioned the similar case of Mt. Graham observatory where the Apache made similar claims of the mountain being "sacred" and were supported by the left-wing activists at the time.

 

[Derec]

Why would a giant human constructed eyeball constructed on a sacred mountain make it any less sacred? I think the origin of this dispute comes from what our government has done to indigenous peoples everywhere it went.

When peoples of different technological level come into contact the result is rarely pretty. History is replete with such examples. But what does "indigenous" mean in this case anyway? Hawaii was settled by Polynesians in historical times (Middle Ages), not that long before Europeans got there. Given that Hawaii is now a US state any resident of Hawaii who is also US citizen should have exactly the same rights whether he is descendant of a 11th century settler from Tahiti, 18th century settler from England or somebody who moved there 5 years ago from the mainland.

I'll bet you can find some indigenous Hawaiians who want to peer into deep space from their sacred mountain.

Their best bet would be to study astronomy and apply for scope time, just like everybody else.
But if they want to look up at the night sky unaided they are free to do that as well - the mountain is big enough. They are not free however to block roads to try to prevent.

We are not a very religious lot here, but we can still be humanistic and extend to indigenous peoples enough consideration they don't feel their entire culture is being steamrolled out of existence.

They can still have their culture. But they (a small minority of about 300) can't be allowed to block a project like the TMT by blocking the roads. A project that was approved after a 7 year public process.

There should be a solution to this problem...possibly another mountain...possibly just a little bit of consideration for the Hawaiian people.

They are free to buy a plot of land if they wish to have exclusive use of it for religious ceremonies.

 

[Derec]

Nothing will happen from this protest.

I hope not. By the way, latest TMT news is that Canada pledged $243 million to it.