• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Here’s how much America’s billionaires give to charity, in one chart

Who are they taking from? Jeff Bezos created a company. His wealth is in the growth of the stock of the company that he and his wife created. Who did he take this from? If you want some of his Amazon stock, you are free to buy some. Do you want it at a discount? If you have a retirement portfolio or any index's, you probably have some amazon stock. If you are upset that Amazon is putting your local store out of business, don't shop there. I'd be curious to hear from you as to what Bezos is taking from others?

Sure he created wealth. But he and his wife did not do it alone and they still use public resources to create and maintain personal wealth on scales that entire nations will not reach. Much of his wealth is built in not paying his employees well or treating them well. That's easier if you are so big that employees are just 0's and 1's. It's much harder if you actually know your employees, a point that was driven home to me as I talked with someone who owns a vet practice and is trying to figure out ways to pay his employees more money and to do better by them as far as health insurance goes.

I don't resent or envy those who have built huge profitable businesses and who are very wealthy--or even those who inherited their wealth. I do think that people should contribute proportionally in terms of taxes (not deferred but actually cough up the cash) to the services and system that has allowed them to be so successful. Yes, rich people should pay a lot more in taxes. While I won't lie and say that I love paying taxes, I also don't gnash my teeth at what I pay either. Or have a hissy fit if my rate goes up. It's fair. I have all I need and then some. And if I do, then the Jeff Bezos of the world and anyone approaching him does, as well.

The fact is that sometimes I worry about this or that: how I will be able to afford to do something I want to do. Then I talk with one of my kids who is struggling to find money for new tires for their car or something like that and I remember what it was like to be their age and how money disappeared as quickly as I could accumulate it, no matter how lean I lived. It's easy to forget that for a lot of people, coming up with an extra $50 or $100 or $300 is a big deal when you can spend that much on lunch without missing it, even if that was you just a few years ago. I can only imagine that for people like Jeff Bezos, the idea of giving employees a raise that amounts to a couple of thousand a year seems like nothing but having been young once, I know that that extra couple of thousand makes the world of difference to people who are struggling.

Deserve is such a fraught word. I think that people deserve to be treated fairly. I think it's fair that people pay more into a system that has rewarded them more. The US system has certainly rewarded me but not nearly as much as it has rewarded Jeff Bezos.

BTW, I wonder if I will get my Amazon package today...

Toni: I totally agree with you. I loved Obama's speech "you didn't build that alone". My issue is that I don't think that the federal government should tax wealth. Their mandate is to raise taxes through income taxes (they can also raise taxes by tariffs, penalties, and other such avenues). If the government needs more funds, they should increase taxes on the rich on the income that is recognized each year.
 
To RVonse's point, why is almost all property taxed - you get taxed just for owning it - while stock ownership is not? Even if only the part of such holdings exceeding - say 3x the average American's total net worth - was taxed, it would put a huge dent in the deficit.

Physical property can be used in real time. Stocks have value only if you sell them or if they pay dividends. The value is more theoretical. I admit that I may not be 100% objective as much of our future retirement will depend on income generated by our stock portfolio—which I should be fairly taxed on as I draw cash from those funds. The important thing to remember is that this is what the retirements of many Americans are built upon. Without that structure in place many more seniors will be living in poverty which is a drain on the economy. They will also be forced to work longer keeping younger people out of those jobs and making it harder for the next generation to advance to more senior positions.

Good post. There are a lot of things that I don't like about taxing wealth. First: federal government doesn't have authority to do this. The States do. I prioritize state funding needs (school, police, fire, safety) over federal spending (war in Iraq, study on how gerbils mate, and etc.). Secondly, wealth is extremely fungable. I guaranty you that if Bezos had to sell 20% of his portfolio immediately for a tax bill, the amazon stock value would plummet. This would have great effect on all retirement portfolios.

Secondly, all wealth will eventually be taxed at some level. If it is decreased today due to forced liquidation, there will less distributed in the future to be taxed. Finally, banks and investors put in covenants that don't allow owners to cash out on some companies. For example, on my company, my bank has a 2:1 tangible net worth covenant on my company. For every two dollars of debt in the company, I must have a dollar of equity. Of course banks value " a companies value" far less than market.
 
I wonder why everyone is hating billionaires all of a sudden. Don't they realize they create jobs for people and open stores in new areas for people?

Acting primarily in their own interest, taking far more than they give means that more harm is being done than good.

It's not about hate.

Who are they taking from? Jeff Bezos created a company. His wealth is in the growth of the stock of the company that he and his wife created. Who did he take this from? If you want some of his Amazon stock, you are free to buy some. Do you want it at a discount? If you have a retirement portfolio or any index's, you probably have some amazon stock. If you are upset that Amazon is putting your local store out of business, don't shop there. I'd be curious to hear from you as to what Bezos is taking from others?

And if you want to share in Warren Buffet's moneymaking, buy Berkshire Hathaway.
 
Not sure what you are saying here. Amazon pays tons of taxes: payroll taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, State taxes, nexus taxes, international and etc. They aren't currently paying federal taxes as their NOL (net operating losses) has reduced their current taxable income.

What's happening is basically a flaw in the tax code. You can buy up companies with pre-tax dollars. Many companies have reacted to this buy using all their "profit" to purchase companies. They basically zero out their taxable income but increase their earnings and thus their stock value. Income gets converted to capital gains.

I think the only fix is to make the purchase of companies subject to depreciation like capital assets.

How about.....just tax all income the same? Why is capital gains treated like a holy cow but labor gets taxed to death? Tax everything the same and it automatically gets simple.

1) Even if you taxed them the same the deferred nature of capital gains would favor them.

2) The real reason is inflation. Inflation causes you to pay tax on "gains" that were eaten away by inflation, you never actually got them. Interestingly, at average stock market returns the discount in capital gains taxes is approximately the same as the phantom gains--if you paid standard income tax rates on inflation-adjusted gains you would get about the same number. Personally, I would like to see the tax code thus changed--everything's taxed as ordinary income but your basis is in constant dollars. Apply this across the board--you would be taking capital losses on your bank account. This would be approximately a wash in the stock market (although it would hurt the high flyers) but almost certainly would never be done because it would basically wipe out taxes on interest.
 
How about.....just tax all income the same? Why is capital gains treated like a holy cow but labor gets taxed to death? Tax everything the same and it automatically gets simple.

because the concept of a Tax RATE and Tax AMOUNT is somehow over most people's heads... or at least is easy to obfuscate when making bad arguments. people, generally speaking, are complete shit at math.

To RVonse's point, why is almost all property taxed - you get taxed just for owning it - while stock ownership is not? Even if only the part of such holdings exceeding - say 3x the average American's total net worth - was taxed, it would put a huge dent in the deficit.

In other words, a wealth tax. Very, very bad for startups.

As for why property is taxed--we tax land and cars. Both land and cars incur substantial costs to society (police & fire protection, road maintenance etc.) Stock does not.
 
I wonder why everyone is hating billionaires all of a sudden. Don't they realize they create jobs for people and open stores in new areas for people?

Acting primarily in their own interest, taking far more than they give means that more harm is being done than good.

It's not about hate.

Who are they taking from? Jeff Bezos created a company. His wealth is in the growth of the stock of the company that he and his wife created. Who did he take this from? If you want some of his Amazon stock, you are free to buy some. Do you want it at a discount? If you have a retirement portfolio or any index's, you probably have some amazon stock. If you are upset that Amazon is putting your local store out of business, don't shop there. I'd be curious to hear from you as to what Bezos is taking from others?

Consumers paying higher prices than necessary and workers paid far less than they could be paid. Exploitation of both consumers and workers in order to enrich themselves beyond anything that could be called a reasonable reward. Unreasonable for consumers and workers, generous to the nth degree in terms of profit for themselves. It's called greed.
 
Again, problem with billionaires is their disproportionate influence on direction in which society moves. Most billionaires will direct everything toward them getting more money and power, not the right direction if you ask most people. And they are not even particularly better than average person at their judgement beyond their business. Bill Gates is not a smartest person in the world, he may not even be in the top 1%.
 
[Citation needed]

"Needed"? Or what? You'll croak? :hysterical: I'm not here to spoon feed you.
I was being hyperbolic. Of course not ALL of the very rich pay zero. (There are some: 1,470 households reported income of more than $1 million in 2009 but paid zero federal income taxes on it.)
Warren Buffet says he pays a lower rate than his secretary does. That's just... wrong.

1) Congress sometimes creates tax incentives for doing things. It's not wrong when people respond to those incentives.

2) Note that at least before His Flatulence messed with things medical expenses and casualty losses were deductible. They have floors but no ceilings. You made a million but a wildfire burned down your million-dollar uninsured house, you owe no federal tax for that year. You would expect a few people to pay zero tax in a year because of such things.
 
Who are they taking from? Jeff Bezos created a company. His wealth is in the growth of the stock of the company that he and his wife created. Who did he take this from? If you want some of his Amazon stock, you are free to buy some. Do you want it at a discount? If you have a retirement portfolio or any index's, you probably have some amazon stock. If you are upset that Amazon is putting your local store out of business, don't shop there. I'd be curious to hear from you as to what Bezos is taking from others?

Consumers paying higher prices than necessary and workers paid far less than they could be paid. Exploitation of both consumers and workers in order to enrich themselves beyond anything that could be called a reasonable reward. Unreasonable for consumers and workers, generous to the nth degree in terms of profit for themselves. It's called greed.

Except for the little detail that Amazon pays no dividends. Bezos isn't taking a penny from his workers. His vast wealth is due to what people think the company is worth, not due to income.
 
Who are they taking from? Jeff Bezos created a company. His wealth is in the growth of the stock of the company that he and his wife created. Who did he take this from? If you want some of his Amazon stock, you are free to buy some. Do you want it at a discount? If you have a retirement portfolio or any index's, you probably have some amazon stock. If you are upset that Amazon is putting your local store out of business, don't shop there. I'd be curious to hear from you as to what Bezos is taking from others?

Consumers paying higher prices than necessary and workers paid far less than they could be paid. Exploitation of both consumers and workers in order to enrich themselves beyond anything that could be called a reasonable reward. Unreasonable for consumers and workers, generous to the nth degree in terms of profit for themselves. It's called greed.

Except for the little detail that Amazon pays no dividends. Bezos isn't taking a penny from his workers. His vast wealth is due to what people think the company is worth, not due to income.
Technically true, but the reason Amazon is worth that much is because it has these profits which are directly affected by how much workers are paid and Amazon is often accused of not paying well for the slave work.
 
Who are they taking from? Jeff Bezos created a company. His wealth is in the growth of the stock of the company that he and his wife created. Who did he take this from? If you want some of his Amazon stock, you are free to buy some. Do you want it at a discount? If you have a retirement portfolio or any index's, you probably have some amazon stock. If you are upset that Amazon is putting your local store out of business, don't shop there. I'd be curious to hear from you as to what Bezos is taking from others?

Consumers paying higher prices than necessary and workers paid far less than they could be paid. Exploitation of both consumers and workers in order to enrich themselves beyond anything that could be called a reasonable reward. Unreasonable for consumers and workers, generous to the nth degree in terms of profit for themselves. It's called greed.

Except for the little detail that Amazon pays no dividends. Bezos isn't taking a penny from his workers. His vast wealth is due to what people think the company is worth, not due to income.

Not really. Amazon has a bad reputation for the way they treat their workers and what people think the company is worth is tied to its business practices.
 
Except for the little detail that Amazon pays no dividends. Bezos isn't taking a penny from his workers. His vast wealth is due to what people think the company is worth, not due to income.
Technically true, but the reason Amazon is worth that much is because it has these profits which are directly affected by how much workers are paid and Amazon is often accused of not paying well for the slave work.

Note that many of the objections with Amazon are overblown. They're paying a lot more than many other places.
 
Except for the little detail that Amazon pays no dividends. Bezos isn't taking a penny from his workers. His vast wealth is due to what people think the company is worth, not due to income.
Technically true, but the reason Amazon is worth that much is because it has these profits which are directly affected by how much workers are paid and Amazon is often accused of not paying well for the slave work.

Note that many of the objections with Amazon are overblown. They're paying a lot more than many other places.

Not if you take what workers are saying into account.

As for the pay:

''There were conflicting accounts about Amazon's $15 minimum-wage hike. Some workers said the wage boost benefitted them, while others said they were worse off during peak because bonuses were axed.''


Personally, I'd consider a pay rate of $15 per hour for working your arse off as a sick joke.
 
Note that many of the objections with Amazon are overblown. They're paying a lot more than many other places.

Not if you take what workers are saying into account.

As for the pay:

''There were conflicting accounts about Amazon's $15 minimum-wage hike. Some workers said the wage boost benefitted them, while others said they were worse off during peak because bonuses were axed.''


Personally, I'd consider a pay rate of $15 per hour for working your arse off as a sick joke.

Yeah, these places sound like modern updates of the sweatshops of old, just without the poverty.

The injury rates at these facilities is very high also.

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/27/783223343/amazon-warehouse-employees-face-serious-injuries-report-says
 
Note that many of the objections with Amazon are overblown. They're paying a lot more than many other places.

Not if you take what workers are saying into account.

As for the pay:

''There were conflicting accounts about Amazon's $15 minimum-wage hike. Some workers said the wage boost benefitted them, while others said they were worse off during peak because bonuses were axed.''


Personally, I'd consider a pay rate of $15 per hour for working your arse off as a sick joke.

$15/hr is a lot better than you get at many places for basically unskilled labor.
 
Note that many of the objections with Amazon are overblown. They're paying a lot more than many other places.

Not if you take what workers are saying into account.

As for the pay:

''There were conflicting accounts about Amazon's $15 minimum-wage hike. Some workers said the wage boost benefitted them, while others said they were worse off during peak because bonuses were axed.''


Personally, I'd consider a pay rate of $15 per hour for working your arse off as a sick joke.

$15/hr is a lot better than you get at many places for basically unskilled labor.

The issue is not about marginally better or worse pay but gross disparity in wealth between the super rich and the rest of us, which includes exploitation of labour as just one means of money flowing into the coffers of the rich.

Whether the work is skilled or unskilled is irrelevant to the sheer scale of the problem.
 
I wonder why everyone is hating billionaires all of a sudden. Don't they realize they create jobs for people and open stores in new areas for people?

Acting primarily in their own interest, taking far more than they give means that more harm is being done than good.

It's not about hate.
An awful lot of antisemites claim it's not about hate -- it's about Jews acting primarily in their own interest and taking far more than they give. Just because someone has a theory that says a minority group are parasites, and just because he really really believes in his theory, isn't enough to make an accusation not hate speech.

Jeff Bezos made about a billion dollars last year*. He got that because customers gave him 23 billion. They gave him 23 billion because he gave them goods and services that were worth more than 23 billion to them. He was able to keep a billion because his suppliers gave him the goods and services for only 22 billion, because the goods and services were worth less than 22 billion to the suppliers. That means he gave other people stuff worth more than 45 billion to them, and those people gave him stuff worth less than 45 billion to them. Looks to me like he's giving more than he takes.

Of course he does it because it's in his interest to, but so what? It's not as though the millions of people who helped make him a billionaire did it for him because they were feeling charitable toward Jeff Bezos. Those people were also acting in their own interest -- they wanted Amazon products, or they wanted payment for services -- and I don't think you hold that against them.

So explain your mathematics. How do you calculate that Jeff Bezos is taking far more than he gives? How do you figure millions of individual transactions in each of which he gives more than he takes add up to a total in which he takes far more than he gives?

(* Bezos owns roughly 10% of Amazon's roughly ten billion dollar profit. His 100 billion-odd net worth is just paper assets due to Amazon's overblown P/E ratio. It doesn't count as real money because he couldn't sell much of his stock without bursting the bubble.)

Who are they taking from? Jeff Bezos created a company. His wealth is in the growth of the stock of the company that he and his wife created. Who did he take this from? If you want some of his Amazon stock, you are free to buy some. Do you want it at a discount? If you have a retirement portfolio or any index's, you probably have some amazon stock. If you are upset that Amazon is putting your local store out of business, don't shop there. I'd be curious to hear from you as to what Bezos is taking from others?

Consumers paying higher prices than necessary and workers paid far less than they could be paid. Exploitation of both consumers and workers in order to enrich themselves beyond anything that could be called a reasonable reward. Unreasonable for consumers and workers, generous to the nth degree in terms of profit for themselves. It's called greed.
Would you be willing to entertain a hypothetical sci-fi scenario? Let us imagine we lived in a world with no Jeff Bezos, a world where operations like Amazon can be created by a software app, supplied to us for free by benevolent Vulcans. The only thing 600,000 would-be workers and a hundred million would-be buyers need to do to get jobs and get stuff showing up on their doorsteps in Amazon boxes is run the app, and then the app makes all the arrangements and charges nothing for its services. Back in the real-world Amazon pays its workers and other suppliers 220 billion and charges its customers 230 billion, but the hypothetical sci-fi Vulcan software Amazon doesn't do that. It collects no profit. So tell us, how much do you figure the app pays its suppliers and how much do you figure it charges its customers?

Well, maybe it only charges its customers 220 billion. It certainly could afford to charge less since it only has 220 billion in expenses. On the other hand, it could charge them 230 billion, since they're evidently willing to pay that much, so it could afford to pay its workers and other suppliers 230 billion. It could even split the difference and both pay and charge 225 billion, paying the workers more and charging the customers less.

So what's happening with all those possibilities? Well, according to your premises, in the first case workers are paid 10 billion less than they could be paid. That means the consumers are exploiting the workers. In the second case, consumers are paying 10 billion more than necessary. That means the workers are exploiting the consumers. In the third case, workers are paid 5 billion less than they could be paid and consumers are paying 5 billion more than necessary. That means the consumers are exploiting the workers and the workers are simultaneously exploiting the consumers. So tell us, how much do you think the app ought to price Amazon products, according to DBT morality?

Consumers paying higher prices than necessary is an absurd standard for whether consumers are being exploited. Workers paid far less than they could be paid is an absurd standard for whether workers are being exploited. Your premises imply absurd consequences.
 
$15/hr is a lot better than you get at many places for basically unskilled labor.

The issue is not about marginally better or worse pay but gross disparity in wealth between the super rich and the rest of us, which includes exploitation of labour as just one means of money flowing into the coffers of the rich.

Whether the work is skilled or unskilled is irrelevant to the sheer scale of the problem.

It never fails--it's always about chopping down those above you.
 
$15/hr is a lot better than you get at many places for basically unskilled labor.

The issue is not about marginally better or worse pay but gross disparity in wealth between the super rich and the rest of us, which includes exploitation of labour as just one means of money flowing into the coffers of the rich.

Whether the work is skilled or unskilled is irrelevant to the sheer scale of the problem.

It never fails--it's always about chopping down those above you.

It's those above us that have been chopping us down for forty years.
 
Back
Top Bottom