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Historical Jesus
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Lumpenproletariat
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Why did ancient authors generate no other fictional characters than the Jesus character only?
But why did only this one Jesus story get "generated"? There aren't any others. If there was a need to generate stories, why aren't there hundreds of other similar stories that got generated?
But why didn't people want more information about other generated characters? Why was it only this one Jesus character that they wanted more information about?
Why was there a demand only for this story, about Jesus the miracle-worker?
Before you say "Oh, there are millions of other stories that got made up," remember that this one got made up within 30 or 40 years after the alleged events took place.
That eliminates all the stories about the pagan gods, all the Homer and Virgil and Ovid and Hesiod tales.
In less than 80 years there were 4 (5) accounts of the miracle acts of Jesus, putting him in a particular place and time in history, and thousands of believers were spreading the tales and the accounts were being copied by the hundreds.
All based on a fiction story? Why did such a thing happen ONLY ONCE in 3000 years of recorded human history?
You might make a case that similar stories appeared after about 1500 or so, because of the modern publishing industry. But written history goes back to around 2000 BC, and during all those 3000-3500 years we have only one such story getting made up. How can that be?
What's another example of a story where no one can be held accountable?
It's easy to say it's just another story that got made up. Until you try to give us any other example of such stories which got made up.
Why are there no other fictional characters, depicted as historical (by writers near to the time the character allegedly existed), except this one?
Don't just say there are hundreds/thousands of them. Give an example. There aren't any.
And, why do so many people falsely believe there are other examples of this? I.e., that the 1st-century Jesus character is only one of many such fictional characters which got generated? Yet no one can name another case.
In looking for examples, remember that the first recorded account of the character has to be dated less than 50 or 100 years of when the character reportedly lived, and also we need at least some kind of additional account beyond just one only, i.e., extra source.
You can't claim a story was generated if it never got circulated or published until 1000 years later. Or if there's only one source for it.
But why did only this one Jesus story get "generated"? There aren't any others. If there was a need to generate stories, why aren't there hundreds of other similar stories that got generated?
But why didn't people want more information about other generated characters? Why was it only this one Jesus character that they wanted more information about?
Why was there a demand only for this story, about Jesus the miracle-worker?
Before you say "Oh, there are millions of other stories that got made up," remember that this one got made up within 30 or 40 years after the alleged events took place.
That eliminates all the stories about the pagan gods, all the Homer and Virgil and Ovid and Hesiod tales.
In less than 80 years there were 4 (5) accounts of the miracle acts of Jesus, putting him in a particular place and time in history, and thousands of believers were spreading the tales and the accounts were being copied by the hundreds.
All based on a fiction story? Why did such a thing happen ONLY ONCE in 3000 years of recorded human history?
You might make a case that similar stories appeared after about 1500 or so, because of the modern publishing industry. But written history goes back to around 2000 BC, and during all those 3000-3500 years we have only one such story getting made up. How can that be?
What's another example of a story where no one can be held accountable?
It's easy to say it's just another story that got made up. Until you try to give us any other example of such stories which got made up.
Why are there no other fictional characters, depicted as historical (by writers near to the time the character allegedly existed), except this one?
Don't just say there are hundreds/thousands of them. Give an example. There aren't any.
And, why do so many people falsely believe there are other examples of this? I.e., that the 1st-century Jesus character is only one of many such fictional characters which got generated? Yet no one can name another case.
In looking for examples, remember that the first recorded account of the character has to be dated less than 50 or 100 years of when the character reportedly lived, and also we need at least some kind of additional account beyond just one only, i.e., extra source.
You can't claim a story was generated if it never got circulated or published until 1000 years later. Or if there's only one source for it.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
This was the most common type of literature in the ancient world. There's tonnes of others. Did you even bother googling this before posting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_literature
Lumpenproletariat
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It's difficult to explain how Jesus became a recorded historical figure (if he did not do the miracle acts).
There is a mythical and a historical Jesus. Just as there is a mythical and historical Spartacus and Caesar Augustus and Vespasian and Socrates. Most high-profile historical characters exist in a mythical and also real historical version. And there's the doubtful part for most of them.
The evidence, for all the above, is that the real person existed, fitting the general reputation, but having extra fictional features added to the factual part.
All who are documented were persons widely recognized for their status, and/or were wealthy or powerful during their lifetime.
Are there any exceptions? What example is there of an "obscure" person about whom we have written accounts? Someone of no wide recognized status or of great wealth or power? Also, someone who had a relatively short career?
If there is no case, that suggests that it's impossible. A figure who has no recognized distinction of some kind, or high status, would not get mentioned. No writer has any reason to report on such a person.
Is there any figure in the Jewish tradition who has been documented and was not someone of wide recognition or distinction during his lifetime, or someone rich and powerful?
Maybe John the Baptist, mentioned in Josephus? He might be difficult to explain. Perhaps he accumulated a wide reputation due to a talent at oratory and a long career. Maybe martyrdom added to his reputation. There are almost no other examples.
In rare cases maybe someone "obscure" could become "documented" in the sense of getting a mention in the historical record. But not becoming made into a god or "messiah" or "Son of God" figure.
In the case of Jesus, the only explanation that makes sense is that he performed the miracle acts. That brought him the instant recognition. Without this, it's impossible to explain how such an obscure person, with such a short public career, became deified in such a short time.
There is a mythical and a historical Jesus. Just as there is a mythical and historical Spartacus and Caesar Augustus and Vespasian and Socrates. Most high-profile historical characters exist in a mythical and also real historical version. And there's the doubtful part for most of them.
The evidence, for all the above, is that the real person existed, fitting the general reputation, but having extra fictional features added to the factual part.
All who are documented were persons widely recognized for their status, and/or were wealthy or powerful during their lifetime.
Are there any exceptions? What example is there of an "obscure" person about whom we have written accounts? Someone of no wide recognized status or of great wealth or power? Also, someone who had a relatively short career?
If there is no case, that suggests that it's impossible. A figure who has no recognized distinction of some kind, or high status, would not get mentioned. No writer has any reason to report on such a person.
Is there any figure in the Jewish tradition who has been documented and was not someone of wide recognition or distinction during his lifetime, or someone rich and powerful?
Maybe John the Baptist, mentioned in Josephus? He might be difficult to explain. Perhaps he accumulated a wide reputation due to a talent at oratory and a long career. Maybe martyrdom added to his reputation. There are almost no other examples.
In rare cases maybe someone "obscure" could become "documented" in the sense of getting a mention in the historical record. But not becoming made into a god or "messiah" or "Son of God" figure.
In the case of Jesus, the only explanation that makes sense is that he performed the miracle acts. That brought him the instant recognition. Without this, it's impossible to explain how such an obscure person, with such a short public career, became deified in such a short time.
Lumpenproletariat
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The Jesus miracle acts are documented in writing only 30-70 years after they reportedly happened.
You aren't paying attention.
All the examples you refer to here were not written about until many centuries, even more than a 1000 years after the events reportedly happened, or the characters allegedly lived, if they lived, which they might have. You have to give examples of persons who were written about within 50 - 100 years after the events reported about them.
These examples, which is all you can offer, prove the point that such fictional stories require centuries to evolve, not just 50 years.
You aren't paying attention.
All the examples you refer to here were not written about until many centuries, even more than a 1000 years after the events reportedly happened, or the characters allegedly lived, if they lived, which they might have. You have to give examples of persons who were written about within 50 - 100 years after the events reported about them.
These examples, which is all you can offer, prove the point that such fictional stories require centuries to evolve, not just 50 years.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Donald Trump reports on terrorist attacks in Sweden the same day the occurred. What terrorist attacks, you say? There were none. He just misunderstood a guy who also was lying about it on TV. The evidence point to that fictional stories of purportedly real events only need minutes to evolve before reaching maximum spread.
I don't think you thought this through
Lumpenproletariat
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What would any self-respecting God do?
Maybe, if you claim divine inspiration about what they would do. If you had a "revelation" from On High about what these entities would or would not do, then you alone are tuned in to this enlightenment which is denied to the rest of us. It's OK to just rely on the evidence we have, available to everyone, without claiming special private revelation such as yours.
Maybe, if you claim divine inspiration about what they would do. If you had a "revelation" from On High about what these entities would or would not do, then you alone are tuned in to this enlightenment which is denied to the rest of us. It's OK to just rely on the evidence we have, available to everyone, without claiming special private revelation such as yours.
Lumpenproletariat
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If the only source for the miracle event is dated 100+ years after the event happened -- guess what -- it didn't really happen.
Then why don't we have any examples from recorded history, of instant miracle stories? Why are the Jesus miracle stories the only ones in all the ancient historical record?
I'm waiting for you to think through an example, from 3000 years of recorded history/literature/poetry/philosophy which shows any case where a miracle story is reported within only 30-70 years from the time of the alleged event.
Actually there are some goofy claims of this, by Richard Carrier, but they are so silly as to prove the point. There are no miracle-workers in ancient history, other than Jesus around 30 AD, for which we have written documents, or evidence, reporting it within 50-100 years from when the event allegedly happened.
The long delay, usually many centuries, is the explanation how the fictional stories were able to evolve and finally become published. The ancients did not fall for instant miracle stories. They believed in the ancient gods, not in the latest fly-by-night charlatan.
The closest there is to any instant miracle stories are some war stories, during a high-profile battlefield scene, where maybe an omen appeared, or something uncanny, a sign from the gods, to thwart the enemy. Maybe reported in a document 50 years later. And probably there's only one source for it, rather than 4 (5) such as we have for the Jesus miracle acts.
Then why don't we have any examples from recorded history, of instant miracle stories? Why are the Jesus miracle stories the only ones in all the ancient historical record?
I'm waiting for you to think through an example, from 3000 years of recorded history/literature/poetry/philosophy which shows any case where a miracle story is reported within only 30-70 years from the time of the alleged event.
Actually there are some goofy claims of this, by Richard Carrier, but they are so silly as to prove the point. There are no miracle-workers in ancient history, other than Jesus around 30 AD, for which we have written documents, or evidence, reporting it within 50-100 years from when the event allegedly happened.
The long delay, usually many centuries, is the explanation how the fictional stories were able to evolve and finally become published. The ancients did not fall for instant miracle stories. They believed in the ancient gods, not in the latest fly-by-night charlatan.
The closest there is to any instant miracle stories are some war stories, during a high-profile battlefield scene, where maybe an omen appeared, or something uncanny, a sign from the gods, to thwart the enemy. Maybe reported in a document 50 years later. And probably there's only one source for it, rather than 4 (5) such as we have for the Jesus miracle acts.
Keith&Co.
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Because NO miracle stories are part of THE HISTORICAL RECORD!
DrZoidberg
Contributor
There's miracles reported all the time. People getting healed from cancer, narrowly surviving death after some accident, their candidate winning an election against all odds and so on.
All religious myths are purportedly real events. Thor slaying the Fenris Wolf with a magical hammer. That sounds miraculous to me. Shiva dancing around destroying the world with Earth quakes... pretty damn miraculous.
It's extremely common. The religious world is full of miracles being reported all the time. Just google!
http://www.smashinglists.com/top-ten-real-world-miracles/
The secular world of course don't report miracles. Because they are less gullible. Here's a fun statistics. Astronomers report half as many UFO's as regular people looking up at the sky. A UFO is just a phenomena that can't be explained. It doesn't mean a visitor from another planet. How come astronomers, who spend all their free time staring up at the night sky are so much worse at spotting UFO's than just random people? It's because astronomers know what they're looking at. They know the science. Since a UFO just is something that cannot be explained and they can explain it, they don't report it.
A miracle being reported doesn't mean there's been an actual miracle. It might as well be evidence of someone being uneducated.
WTF are you smoking? In ancient Judea, in the time of Jesus a prophet wasn't only a religious messenger, it could also be a stage magician. We have found ancient stage props for turning water into wine. As well as ancient manuscripts describing the magical trick. Clearly they believed the latest fly-by-night charlatan. Just like most people of any age have. The fact that a known magicians stage trick has made it into the Bible and is attributed to Jesus tells us all we need to know.
http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasPr...team/URochesterCollection/Hero/section65.html
James Brown
Veteran Member
You're saying people were more skeptical two thousand years ago than they are today?
--Acts 8:9-11
In other apocryphal Christian works, Simon was able to levitate and fly at will.
funinspace
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I see that this thread now has a lumpian infection...
Lumpy has been huckstering this line on the '120 reasons to reject Christianity' thread for a couple years. He has this Mythical Hero's Official Requirements Checklist (MHORC) with roughly 8 to 10 random puzzle piece requirements, thereby he insists that this makes his custom Christian theology unique and important....blah...blah...blah.
Lumpy has been huckstering this line on the '120 reasons to reject Christianity' thread for a couple years. He has this Mythical Hero's Official Requirements Checklist (MHORC) with roughly 8 to 10 random puzzle piece requirements, thereby he insists that this makes his custom Christian theology unique and important....blah...blah...blah.
Malintent
Veteran Member
Evidence for a historical Jesus 0, in exactly the same way.
Malintent
Veteran Member
Maybe the Jesus authors were opposed to using Twitter to reach hundreds of millions of viewers worldwide in a matter of seconds... or maybe the internet was running a little slower two thousand years ago.
Yes, your reply to the challenge had zero evidence
Learner
Veteran Member
If we had scholars choose between Jesus having 'existed' or Malintents $1,000,000 having 'existed'. I'd place my bet on Jesus.
You are welcome to provide evidence for historical Jesus
Evidence 0
Evidence 0
the challenge is to provide evidence of historical Jesus not make up silly irrelevant hysterical prose
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
The Gospels of Bigfoot
I love it.
I know people who are hardcore believers in bigfoot. They're just like jesus worshippers, have these pictures and doodads all over the place. Lots of articles too, the gospels of bigfoot, out to spread the truth.
I love it.