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Historical Jesus

What is it that happened 2000 years ago?
Didn't a noteworthy change take place?
No, not really.
What's noteworthy is that someone demonstrated unique super-human power -- ability to instantly heal physical afflictions, and ability to rise back to life, or resurrect and live again, after being killed -- and this is documented in the written record of that time (the time when it happened), or legitimate evidence, based on manuscripts surviving from the time of these events (rather than centuries later) to us today, in multiple sources rather than only one. There is no such evidence for any other miracle legends in ancient religious traditions, Western, Eastern, Jewish, pagan etc.
Raising a person from the dead? It is good to keep your miracles small, that way they can't be fact checked. So, whatever happened to Lazarus? I'm assuming big things... he went out speaking on Jesus's behalf, which why we have The Book of Lazarus.
 
What is it that happened 2000 years ago?
Didn't a noteworthy change take place?
No, not really.
What's noteworthy is that someone demonstrated unique super-human power -- ability to instantly heal physical afflictions, and ability to rise back to life, or resurrect and live again, after being killed -- and this is documented in the written record of that time (the time when it happened), or legitimate evidence, based on manuscripts surviving from the time of these events (rather than centuries later) to us today, in multiple sources rather than only one. There is no such evidence for any other miracle legends in ancient religious traditions, Western, Eastern, Jewish, pagan etc.
Raising a person from the dead? It is good to keep your miracles small, that way they can't be fact checked. So, whatever happened to Lazarus? I'm assuming big things... he went out speaking on Jesus's behalf, which why we have The Book of Lazarus.

And why so many New Testament authors mentioned Lazarus as an example of what happens when you believe in Jesus. What better evidence could anyone ask for? ;)
 
Anyone who could turn water intoi wine would certainly be on the social A list.
I've been considering starting another thread "Speculation about Historical Jesus".

His first miracle of note was creating wine out of water. I can think of reasons why that story would make the cut and get into Gospel.
Tom
 
There are no contemporaneous accounts of any of it, all there . . .
"contemporaneous accounts"? We don't have that for 90% of our ancient history events. The accounts are dated generally 50-100-200 years later than the event(s) happened, not contemporary to the event(s). Anything reported by a writer contemporaneous to the event(s) is the rare exception.

For the pagan miracle myths there are no accounts of the events/characters until several centuries later, which puts those miracle legends into the fiction category, or maybe .5% probability of being true. All we have is high to low probability, no absolute certainty of it being true or false, whatever kind of event is claimed.

On the contrary there is corroboration for the majority of major historical figures.
Yes, for the major figures like the powerful generals and emperors and kings or widely-famous rich and powerful rulers exercising power over millions of subjects. That's why we have virtually no contemporary written record of Jesus, who had no power or recognition or status of any kind during his life.

The record we do have, mainly the 4 Gospels and the Epistles of Paul, is much more than average corroboration for someone of no status when he was alive.


In high school Latin class we read Caesar's Gallic Wars in Latin. Aristotle and Plato left comprehensive coherent writings.
Yes, those who were rich and/or powerful (or had connection to those in power) and lived long brilliant careers in the Established Social Structure did leave writings in some cases. But there were others also who existed and did something important, in some cases (very few cases). Jesus was one who had no status or connection to anyone of status and had a short public career of maybe a year or two. So it's astonishing that we have any written record of him at all.


Confucius 500 BCE.
The sources for Confucius are all in agreement: He did not do any miracle acts, but he was an influential teacher over a very long career. It's normal for someone to become famous if he had talent and communicating skill and a long life delivering lectures in public to thousands of disciples or listeners over many decades. Confucius was partly successful in getting those in power to listen to him, but mostly a failure at persuading them to accept his recommendations.

There's no analogy between Confucius and Jesus, except that in both cases many teachings were put into their mouths by later writers. And we know why they put teachings into the mouth of Confucius, because he was a widely-recognized Teacher before the end of his life. But no one can explain why 1st- and 2nd-century writers put words into the mouth of Jesus, because he had no wide recognition of any kind near the period of his life. Only after 100 years did he begin to be recognized for anything important (other than the miracle acts, if they happened).


Contemporary accounts of figures are usually biased history and may contain fabrications, but there are corroborations as to who they were and what they did.
Yes, again this refers to those having important positions of power and status in the society, unlike Jesus who had no status or recognition or power over anyone. We have no explanation why he should have received any mention in any written record, if he did not do the miracle acts, which could explain what made him important and worth writing about.


We know a lot about Spartacus and the slave rebellion.
Yes, because he had a major political impact on those in power, who had to expend vast resources for the military undertaking to suppress him and his thousands of fighters supporting him. This put him into the history books, making him famous while he was still alive. Jesus had no such recognition or influence on events during his life.

In effect Spartacus goes into a similar category as the successful military generals, like Hannibal, Pompey, etc., except that he was an OUTLAW commander of an "army" of soldiers who won some impressive victories.


There is archaeological evidence for the Spartan defense at Thermopylae Pass.
There's lots of such evidence for major battles which influenced historical events and politics. There's no reason to expect there'd be any such evidence for Jesus, who led no military campaigns.


The gospels are an incoherent collection of what today we call sound bites.
You could say the same about most written accounts of historical events. Plus also the Gospels contain some propaganda "sound bytes" like some standard historical writings, which doesn't undermine them as authentic sources for the events.


A contemporaneous account would be a letter from a Roman to a friend, "Hey Tiberius, you just gotta see this Jesus guy walk on water."
There are virtually no such written accounts from individuals who were commoners. There might be a half-dozen cases of such letters which got preserved by accident. The few personal "letters" there are from average persons are a tiny insignificant quantity, and containing nothing noteworthy about the events of general interest. The only published "letters" are from famous persons like Cicero and Pliny etc. who never mixed among commoners to see a John the Baptizer or James the Just or other Prophet addressing an audience of regular people.


Roman emperors always claimed themselves as descended from gods. Stories of anyone in the empire walking around performing supernatural miracles in the name of a god claiming to be a son of a god would certainly evoke a Roman response.
No, there'd be no response because no one believed any such claims, and no one making such claims had any more than a dozen believers and were rejected as charlatans of no concern (unless they were undertaking military actions). From about 300 BC to 100 AD both the educated AND THE UNEDUCATED MASSES rejected claims about miracle-workers. They were more skeptical of such rumors than virtually any other population group in history, including today. This is proved by just looking at the literature of that period. Miracle-workers are completely absent! -- no evidence of any such superstitious beliefs such as can be found for other historical periods.

In the gospels it was not the Romans out for the head of Jesus, it was the Jews.
"The Jews" is a misleading term, in the Christian literature. There was conflict between Jesus and some other Jews, including the Jewish Establishment and also Jews who demanded strict adherence to the Mosaic Law. Some of those Jewish opponents of Jesus wanted him removed. Probably they had to use the charge that Jesus was an insurrectionist threat in order to persuade Pilate to condemn him.


In the day Jesus was one of several.
No, there were no other reported miracle-workers. There is no written source for that period which reports miracle-workers successfully performing miracle acts. There's only a few cases of charlatans (reported as charlatans in those accounts) making promises but no evidence that anyone believed they did miracle acts.


We know there were some who claimed to be the Messiah, somewhere bandits. The conclusion I came to is that the gospels are a conflation of multiple events and people from oral accounts. Jesus may have been symbolic for a movement. Anything in the movement was referred to as Jesus.
You may be on to something! There's evidence (covered up by the Establishment) of UFO Landings near Qumran and Capernaum some time before 30 AD where thousands of locals were abducted by Aliens who hypnotized them and force-fed them a special "Jesus" Kool-Aid, and after that there was an epidemic of Jesus sightings. That's probably when "the movement" began.

Check into it.
 
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How about a Jesus mega thread.

Of course, I see ETs all the time. They gave me special glasses to see them. I communicate telepathically with them in their invisible orbiting space ships.

I am authorized to reveal Jesus was an ET and he did not die. All those supernatural effects are from advanced science.

It is a Christian conspiracy to hide the truth.
 
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If we don't believe the existing sources --
there are no historical events to believe.

All the sources agree (no discrepancy) that Pilate hesitated but then pronounced the death sentence -- so his hesitation is likely part of the original event.
When you say "all sources", what you mean is all the sources that still exist.
That's always the meaning, no matter whether it's about Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great or Plato or Zoroaster or Mohammed.

Any claims that there were other sources also which are now lost can be tested over time, because there are new manuscripts still being discovered, as an ongoing fact of today's research. Until new documents are discovered which contradict the current-known sources, it's reasonable to believe the current sources, on any points where these agree. And there are HUNDREDS (thousands?) of points where the current-known sources agree, and also hundreds where they disagree, including on controversial points which someone in power could have suppressed.

But there's very little evidence of someone in power -- or conspirators -- picking out certain documents, or excerpts in them, and censoring or destroying them in order to cover up something they wanted to hide from public knowledge. The best evidence of anything like that going on 2000 years ago is

hysteria and paranoia among today's debunker fanatics
on a crusade to rewrite history

and make it fit their theories about what should have happened.

No one has any argument why we should not accept these accounts as sources just the same as we accept all other ancient written accounts to determine the events near the time when they were written.


During the centuries before those particular stories were canonized there were plenty of reasons to whitewash the part played by the Romans.
We're still waiting for any evidence that there was such whitewashing. There might be evidence of a pro-Roman element possibly added later, but not of an early anti-Roman element being censored from any written accounts. For this conspiracy theory to be maintained, we need evidence of Jesus making anti-Roman statements, inciting a mob against Rome, organizing a military strike force to lead against a Roman garrison, etc.

Whatever whitewashing there may have been must have happened prior to 100 or 200 AD when the writings were in their final form. You can't rewrite history based only on your paranoia. You must have some facts to confirm your conspiracy theories rather than only the paranoia and conspiracy theory as your premise not to be questioned.

There is plenty of evidence, based on facts -- in writings before 300 AD, inside and outside the NT -- that Jesus was opposed by a group (or groups) of Jews at that time. These facts and evidence confirm the Gospel accounts which say some Jews accused him before Pilate. And nothing about this denies that Pilate's main worry was the threat of insurrection against Rome. It is dogmatic prejudice to insist that there could not have been any Jews present who accused him. There is no reason to insist on this absolutist dogma that only Romans had any complaint against Jesus. If this were the case, then there's no explanation how he was brought before Pilate to be accused. Who brought him there? Did Roman soldiers arrest him? No, the evidence is that it was the Jerusalem Temple police who came for him and made the arrest, obeying their orders from the Temple authorities. So we only know the Jewish authorities acted against him.

It's a virtual certainty that the immediate occasion to accuse him was the earlier riot at the temple, where the accounts say Jesus committed violent criminal acts in assaulting innocent persons and destroying property. It was only the Jewish authorities who responded to this, not the Romans. Whatever the details are, it has to be admitted that there was some conflict between Jesus and the Jewish authorities, and this led to the accusations being brought, rather than some military uprising against Romans. Even if Jesus did instigate that riot, which is debatable, there's no evidence of him organizing an insurrectionist military threat to Rome.

But there's no particular reason to believe that whoever produced the Gospels had detailed accuracy as a goal, or an accurate account of the proceedings.
"accuracy as a goal"? "as a goal" -- one goal among others? Of course there's reason to believe this was a goal.

Absolutely there's evidence that they wanted accuracy -- just as historians like Josephus and Herodotus and others wanted accuracy and yet created their own dialogues and put words into the mouths of the historical characters. They believed their dialogue composition was an honest representation of what the characters actually said and were thinking when they interacted with each other. Seldom do we know the writers wanted to distort the truth of what happened or was said. Rather, we assume the writers exaggerated what this or that character said, but seldom that they deliberately distorted the facts or misrepresented the character or made up their own historical facts. In some cases they made mistakes, but they did not fabricate "facts" to slander a character and promote their prejudice in contradiction to the real facts.

Quite the contrary.
"Quite the contrary" -- what?

After you say "quite the contrary," you're supposed to tell us what shows that the opposite is the case, i.e., that the Gospel writers did not want any accuracy.

There are examples to show how the Gospel writers sometimes presented their account from their existing sources and stayed true to their source rather than changing it, and as a result, their final version might even be less intelligible in places where their source had missed something so that the story is incomplete. This means the writer/editor/redactor stuck to his source, wanting to present as much as possible but not wanting to fabricate something inaccurate to fill in the gap.


episode from the "trial"

The "trial" scenario gives an example of this, where all three synoptic gospels leave something out, leaving the episode unclear, and yet the whole scene is made clear by taking the pieces from each account and fitting them together so they make sense with all the pieces combined. This example is about the guards harassing Jesus:

Mt ch. 26
67 Then they spat in his face, and struck him; and some slapped him,
68 saying, "Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?"

Mk ch. 14
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to strike him, saying to him, "Prophesy!" And the guards received him with blows.

Lk ch. 22
63 Now the men who were holding Jesus mocked him and beat him;
64 they also blindfolded him and asked him, "Prophesy! Who is it that struck you?"

Note that in each of the above 3 versions of this scene, taken alone without the others, this episode makes no sense. Each account leaves out something necessary in order for the whole scene to make sense. If you read each one separately, it's not clear what the point is.

In the Mt version, why do they ask him "Who is it that struck you?" When do you smack someone and then ask "Who is it that struck you?" What sense does that make? None. To ask someone you just smacked who it was that smacked them -- when would you do that even if you wanted to smack that person? What are you adding by asking them who struck them?

But notice the Mk version -- they command him to "Prophesy!" What does the covering his face and striking him have to do with prophesying? Prophesy what? What kind of prophesying are they demanding from him? What does striking him while his face is covered have to do with prophesying? Again, taken alone, this version of the incident doesn't make sense. Something is left out.

The Luke version almost makes sense. But here too there's a disconnect, because they put on the blindfold AFTER they already struck him, so that he could see who it was who struck him at that earlier moment, so he could simply tell them who it was who had struck him before they put the blindfold on him. For the scene to make sense they have to wait until after the blindfold is on before striking him and then asking him who it was who struck him.

The scene makes sense only if the blindfolding happens first, then second the striking, and third asking him to "prophesy" or identify who struck him. The "prophesy" refers to his (psychic) ability to see through the blindfold to identify which one of them struck him. "Prophesy" doesn't mean only to predict the future, but also to speak something by means of some psychic power, or magic, or divine or supernatural ability, etc.

So, each version left out something necessary: Matthew left out the reference to the blindfold, and Mark left out what the "Prophesy!" means -- ordering Jesus to tell them who struck him, and Luke gets the blindfolding in the wrong order by placing it AFTER they struck him rather than before and so making the "Prophesy!" meaningless.

Since each version of this makes no sense by itself, why did the writer give us his account of it? What did the writer think he was telling the reader about the event? It appears that each writer individually did not understand what was happening, but he thought it was important anyway and should be included, because it was in his sources. Each Gospel writer here thought it was important to report what he had in his limited version of it and so stay true to his sources, in case the facts do matter, regardless that he didn't see the point of it in the version he presents.

This tells us the Gospel writers did care about the facts, based on what evidence they had, and would diligently give us the best they could, from whatever they had from earlier reports, because the earlier sources, closer to the event itself, are more reliable than the later redactors or editors or revisionists trying to compose a good story for the readers.

This example from the "trial" also tells us that the Gospel writers did not get together and compare notes in order to provide us with a unified story compiled by consensus between them, polished and slickened up for maximum effective impact. The original "Good News" was something which just happened, maybe partly in confusion, without someone following any organized masterplan, and those reporting it both earlier and later all thought it was urgent to get the facts of it out there, reporting it accurately and expeditiously in accord with the best current means of communicating it.

So, even if these accounts we have now are deficient on some points or contain discrepancies or bad interpretations, you cannot deny that they're driven by a concern to retrieve the original facts or details as best as possible, even to the point of including something they didn't understand, writing of it later, but which might be important and traces back to the original events or to the earliest accounts of it, putting maximum priority on the original facts or events to be communicated accurately. And then, conforming to these priorities, each one shaped his interpretation of what happened.

This doesn't mean nothing ever was "made up" by these writers. It means we detect also an impulse to stick to the cold facts, regardless of any theory about what "the story" should be even if the writers also had a "program" of some kind in their head. They thought this was about the earlier historical events, during the term of Pontius Pilate, and about reporting the facts accurately.
 
After the death of Jesus we got a bunch of Christian factions and politics. Each faction wanted Jesus to support whatever they wanted Christianity to be, so would, most likely, edit the words of Jesus to fit. So we get a bunch of versions of Jesus' life that don't match.
Exactly this.
Obviously, something happened during the mid 1st century in Judea that snowballed into Christianity. My best guess is that a loose set of groups formed that shared 2 main characteristics. Deep reverence for Jesus and a solidly communitarian ethic. It's the ethics that made it popular. Near everyone was uneducated and superstitious. Lots were also desperate, living in a tumultuous and insecure world on the verge of collapse. A community that basically tried to "keep each other alive" would be attractive.
And as for the dead hero figurehead leader, no praise was too high, no flattery too extreme, no story too tall. It just wouldn't matter. Because He wasn't there.
Tom

I think it's unhelpful to see it as something that snowballed. As if Jesus just nailed it and that eventually everybody was convinced of the greatness of his message. It's more down to general religious trends. From about 300 BC onward there's a shift away from local pagan cults, and towards more abstract dieties. The relationship between a cultist and a pagan god is transactional. The follower gives something, usually a sacrifice or wearing an amulet, and the god does something in return. A religious cult could have ethical and social rules to follow. But those were of the self-development character. Not because a god told them it was right.

There were a whole bunch of concurrent trends pushing towards something new. Mithraism, Sol Invictus, Zoroastrianism, the Cult of Isis. Stoicism, Epicureanism, etc. These were all huge movements in the Roman empire all pushing in the same direction. A abstract personal diety who was good and gave a shit about you. Jesus was a Jew. His project was to return Jews to the correct faith. He felt that many Jews had lost their way, and new fangled Greek ideas had perverted Judaism. This is all in the Bible BTW. It's also wrong. Jesus wasn't returning Jews to anything. He was pushing Judaism towards adapting it to a more modern views of the divine and religion. Jesus wouldn't have known this though. The ongoing (in Jesus day) pharisee vs Saducee debate is quite enlightening.

As the Jesus movement gained popularity, and spread beyond just Jews, it changed to better fit the stuff that Romans thought was important. Many many theologians have pointed out how similar modern Christianity is to neoplatonism. Many Catholics are openly also neoplatonist and do not see a conflict. Ratzinger for instance identified with being both Catholic and neoplatonist. The influence of stoicism in Christianity is also pretty clear. There's a philosophy joke that Jesus is the world's most famous stoic philosopher. Because the influence is so aparent.

I think the influence of general religious trends onto Christianity was so great it eventually competely replaced the core of the Jesus movement message.

The only unique innovation stemming from the Jesus movment I can think of is that Christianity is open to everybody. It's proselytizing. This was not how pagan cults worked. They were exclusive clubs you had to make an effort to join. Including Judaism. This was an innovation and may have stemmed from Jesus himself.

The only uniquely Jewish thing, I can think of, that was retained from Judaism is the extreme intolerance of other faiths. In paganism worshipping several gods is simply down to how much money you had. Making sacrifices are expensive. So you need to chose which ones serve you best. Judaism did away with this and demanded religious monogamy. The rest in Christianity was pretty standard stuff in any religion of that age.

I can highly recommend reading the Golden Asse by Apuleius. It is a religious story pushing the Cult of Isis. It's not a hagiography. It's just a fictional story with a moral at the end. The religon described and it's message is for practical purposes identical to Christianity.
 
What's noteworthy is that someone demonstrated unique super-human power -- ability to instantly heal physical afflictions, and ability to rise back to life, or resurrect and live again, after being killed ...
Lumpen likes to speak of "multiple sources." For most of the stories, I count at most two: The Gospels of Mark and John. Most of the relevant parts of the other two canonical Gospels are copied from Mark.
Raising a person from the dead? It is good to keep your miracles small, that way they can't be fact checked. So, whatever happened to Lazarus? I'm assuming big things... he went out speaking on Jesus's behalf, which why we have The Book of Lazarus.

And why so many New Testament authors mentioned Lazarus as an example of what happens when you believe in Jesus. What better evidence could anyone ask for? ;)

In case anyone misses the joke, Lazarus is mentioned in only ONE Gospel -- John's. (There is a Lazarus in Luke, but it's a different guy, completely different story.)
 
I think most scholars agree that the canonical gospels are not primary sources. So, are they secondary, tertiary, etc? If there was a proto-gospel or oral tradition first that could explain some things, maybe.


There are also some non-canonical gospels, like Infancy Gospel of Thomas:
The text describes the life of the child Jesus from the ages of five to twelve,[13] with fanciful, and sometimes malevolent, supernatural events. He is presented as a precocious child who starts his education early.[13] The stories cover how the young Incarnation of God matures and learns to use his powers for good and how those around him first respond in fear and later with admiration.[3] One of the episodes involves Jesus making clay birds, which he then proceeds to bring to life, an act also attributed to Jesus in Quran 5:110,[14] and in a medieval Jewish work known as Toledot Yeshu, although Jesus's age at the time of the event is not specified in either account. In another episode, a child disperses water that Jesus has collected. Jesus kills this first child, when at age one he curses a boy, which causes the child's body to wither into a corpse. Later, Jesus kills another child via curse when the child apparently accidentally bumps into Jesus, throws a stone at Jesus, or punches Jesus (depending on the translation).
When Joseph and Mary's neighbors complain, Jesus miraculously strikes them blind. Jesus then starts receiving lessons, but tries to teach the teacher, instead, upsetting the teacher who suspects supernatural origins. Jesus is amused by this suspicion, which he confirms, and revokes all his earlier apparent cruelty. Subsequently, he resurrects a friend who is killed when he falls from a roof, and heals another who cuts his foot with an axe.
After various other demonstrations of supernatural ability, new teachers try to teach Jesus, but he proceeds to explain the law to them instead. Another set of miracles is mentioned, in which Jesus heals his brother, who is bitten by a snake, and two others, who have died from different causes. Finally, the text recounts the episode in Luke in which Jesus, aged 12, teaches in the temple.


What would be the difference in theory of accepting natural events as likely in a proto-gospel vs accepting natural events as history in such a gospel as above?
 
Finally, the text recounts the episode in Luke in which Jesus, aged 12, teaches in the temple.
I enjoy speculation about the kernel of truth in such legends.

Suppose Jesus was on the cusp of manhood, by the standards of the day. Joseph was getting tired of dealing with his spoiled bratty stepson. So, while in Jerusalem, Joseph abandons the kid at the Temple. He and Mary are halfway back home before Mary discovers the ruse. She demands to return to retrieve Jesus.
Upon finding Him, and hugging Him, she asks if He's OK.
"Yes mummy. And guess what? I'm the smartest boy in the world!"

Tom
 
I think it's unhelpful to see it as something that snowballed. As if Jesus just nailed it and that eventually everybody was convinced of the greatness of his message. It's more down to general religious trends.
I think you and I are just interpreting the word "snowballed" differently. What I mean is this.

Firstly, grew in numbers and influence. From early 1st century when there was none to a group large and influential enough to be useful to the Roman emperor a few centuries later.

Secondly, whatever Historical Jesus said or did, the Legend grew until He was a miracle working demigod who was part of a previously unknown Trinity.

That's all I mean by "snowballed".
Tom
 
All the sources agree (no discrepancy) that Pilate hesitated but then pronounced the death sentence -- so his hesitation is likely part of the original event.
Better phrased as "BOTH the sources."
No, "the four sources" would be correct. ALL these 4 sources, the 4 Gospel accounts, which have many discrepancies within and between them, minor contradictions on many details, do agree on certain points. Where they agree, the honest interpretation by a non-biased non-prejudiced reader is to accept it as true, as long as there are no other facts to contradict it.

The synoptic gospels taken together and John are the only real records of Jesus' life.
No, not "taken together" as though those 3 are really just one. It's totally dishonest and biased and contrary to scholarship and critical thinking to conflate 3 writings into one, as though they are the same source. There is nothing in the facts or the evidence or the scholarship or the science to justify such an arbitrary judgment.

There's no other case where separate sources are "taken together" and conflated into one simply because one quotes from the other. You do not apply this phony standard to any other writings, so why would you apply it only to the Gospel accounts, as if these have to be put into a separate category of their own and subjected to critical standards not imposed onto any other writings? You can't name any other example of this in the literature where you impose such an artificial standard.

All the evidence is that these 4 (3) accounts were not put together by one group trying to promote a united crusade common to all, but by 4 separate persons or groups, each with its own agenda and interpretation of the Jesus person, each having its own sources, especially for the "trial" information. None of these required any of the others in order to put out its own version of what happened. That one quoted parts from another does not change the fact that each of the 4 would have been produced anyway, even without reliance or quotation from another.

The only motive to reduce these 3 sources to one is dishonesty and a perverse impulse to denigrate these sources because they give evidence one is afraid of and will not face up to. The honest response to this evidence, if one does not like the facts it points to, is to just say that in this case the evidence is misleading, and so in this case we must dismiss the evidence as wrong, which maybe happens in a few cases. A million years ago the evidence was that the earth was flat. That evidence was wrong, or misleading, and so there can be cases where the evidence might be wrong -- and so that's the honest way to reject the evidence, saying that we might reject it anyway.

But to deny the evidence by falsely saying it doesn't exist, or saying there's only one source, or two, when there are really 4, is dishonest and a rejection of science and scholarship.

That a source quotes another source does not suddenly turn both those sources into one source only. These 3 Gospel accounts contradict each other at many points. If they were really all the same source, they would not contradict each other but would harmonize on all the points.

Paul mentions Pilate not at all, beyond a brief mention in the pseudepigraphic 1 Timothy. (Luke does repeat the relevant Pilate mention in Acts.)
We can't rely on Paul for the "trial" facts. But he confirms a hostility between Jesus and "the Jews" in 1 Thess. 2:14-16, and so confirms that there were some Jews who wanted Jesus dead. This adds confirmation to the depiction of Jesus being opposed by some Jews wanting him dead, as the Gospels say in the "trial" scene. There is no reason to insist that there could not have been any such Jews among all the various Jewish factions and also among the Jerusalem Establishment. There were many factions who wanted other Jews to be killed or eliminated. Those at Qumran wanted all the Temple Establishment Jews to be killed in a final showdown or war, where they would be the "Sons of Light" and the Pharisees and Sanhedrin etc. would be the evil "Sons of Darkness" doomed to be conquered and cast into Hell Fire.

There's nothing in all the sources which contradicts this fact, affirmed in all 4 gospels and in Paul, that there were some aggressive Jews who wanted Jesus dead. These probably included some militant factions, similar to the Zealots, who murdered other Jews who did not support their radical campaign against the Romans and the Jewish Establishment. That some Jews wanted other Jews dead is a proven fact of that period, proven in much of the literature, before and after 30 AD. So to recognize this as being part of the "trial" of Jesus, where some Jews called for his crucifixion, is totally in harmony with all the evidence of that period of conflict and disunity and hate among many different factions, even if all of them claimed Moses or Yahweh or the Torah as their inspiration. This internal hate and venom against each other is the same kind that has existed historically within Christian and Muslim and other religious cultures.

All the evidence and all the sources say this conflict was happening, and no source contradicts this. Only bias and dishonesty can prompt anyone to insist that there could not have been any such conflict showing itself also at the "trial" of Jesus and insist that all the sources must be wrong, or that the sources don't really exist.

So, until some manuscripts turn up which say otherwise, the honest truth-seeker must conclude that there was a "trial" of Jesus at which Pontius Pilate condemned him to death with a certain aggressive group of Jews present who demanded this verdict and sentence from him.
 
All the sources agree (no discrepancy) that Pilate hesitated but then pronounced the death sentence -- so his hesitation is likely part of the original event.
Better phrased as "BOTH the sources."
No, "the four sources" would be correct. ALL these 4 sources, the 4 Gospel accounts, which have many discrepancies within and between them, minor contradictions on many details, do agree on certain points. Where they agree, the honest interpretation by a non-biased non-prejudiced reader is to accept it as true, as long as there are no other facts to contradict it.

Obviously the synoptic Gospels have independent anecdotes. But let's compare their treatment of the encounter with Pontius Pilate.

Read Mathew 27:2 followed by 27:11-28. Now read Mark 15:1-14. The texts are almost word-for-word identical. Luke elaborates more (e.g. adding the encounter with Herod) but is still close enough to infer it is based on the same original account as Mark/Matthew. John lengthens the dialog between Jesus and Pilate, but is still in close agreement.

I think you and I are in agreement about much. But I do not accept the accounts of genuine miracles. And it's hard to accept the Gospels as "independent" when we think they were finalized about the same time by members of the same sect. Embellished or fictional anecdotes were incorporated into the Gospels; Pilate's hesitancy MIGHT have been fictional also. (Sources suggest that Pilate was NOT a merciful Governor, nor was he reluctant to crucify Jews.)
 
I think it's unhelpful to see it as something that snowballed. As if Jesus just nailed it and that eventually everybody was convinced of the greatness of his message. It's more down to general religious trends.
I think you and I are just interpreting the word "snowballed" differently. What I mean is this.

Firstly, grew in numbers and influence. From early 1st century when there was none to a group large and influential enough to be useful to the Roman emperor a few centuries later.

I react to your emphasis. As if Constantine was a svengali acting behind the scenes to control the world. The Roman empire was shaking itself apart at the seams. Constantine was one in a string of extremely competent Roman empires who had very little options. I don't think it's so much that he saw Christianity as useful. I think it's more like him seeing that nothing was going to stop the spread of Christianity and if he continues to opose it the Roman empire is doomed. This was a time called "the crisis of the third century". Rome went from disaster to disaster. It was an extremely turbulent time. During large parts of this the Roman beaurocracy just stopped functioning, and the provinces had to fend for themselves. That's not good if you want to keep an empire together.

Worth noting is that Constantine's mother was Christian. He was partly raised Christian. His family priest was Eusebius of Nicomedia. An Arian priest. In the first council of Nicea, the attending bishops voted on Arianism or (what became) Catholicism and Arians lost. Even though Constantine was an Arian, he still backed the other side. And sent troops around the empire to suppress Arianism.

Constantine seems to have been pragmatic to the extreme. He didn't let his ego get in the way of trying to unify Christianity.

We also shouldn't get hung up on whether or not he was secretly a Christian. Or secretely a mithraist. That's a modern way of seeing religion. Romans at that time would hedge their bets. It was standard for Christians to continue to sacrifice to their old gods as well. There's no reason to think Constantine would have been any different.



Secondly, whatever Historical Jesus said or did, the Legend grew until He was a miracle working demigod who was part of a previously unknown Trinity.
Aka he was a normal prophet. Those came a dime a dozen in the Meditteranean. There was nothing special about Jesus. So the fact that there was a legend growing about him does not at all help explain why Christianity became a thing. If anything the main point of the Biblical narrative is to show that Jesus is a normal prophet and worthy of reverence, on the same level as any high priests of a pagan cult. I assume that's why they attributed miracles to Jesus. The miracles of Jesus was standard fare for pagan cults. If Jesus wanted a legendary status he needed to have miracles attributed to him.
 
The question has been posed: Are the Gospels of Mark (R) and Matthew (T) INDEPENDENT accounts of the Nazarene's appearance before Pilate? Or do they derive from the same source account?

I report (using the KJV translation); you decide.

(R1) And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
(T1-2) When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

(R2) And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it.
(T11) And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

(R3) And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
(T12) And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

(R4) And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
(T13) Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?

(R5) But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.
(T14) And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.

(R6) Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.
(T15) Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.

(R7) And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
(T16) And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.

(R8-9) And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them. But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
(T17) Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

(R10) For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
(T18) For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

(T19) When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

(R11) But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
(T20) But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

(T21) The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.

(R12-13) And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews? And they cried out again, Crucify him.
(T22) Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

(R14) Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.
(T23) And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

(T24-25) When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

(R15) And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
(T26) Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
 
The question has been posed: Are the Gospels of Mark (R) and Matthew (T) INDEPENDENT accounts of the Nazarene's appearance before Pilate? Or do they derive from the same source account?

I report (using the KJV translation); you decide.

(R1) And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
(T1-2) When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

(R2) And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it.
(T11) And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

(R3) And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
(T12) And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

(R4) And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
(T13) Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?

(R5) But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.
(T14) And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.

(R6) Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.
(T15) Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.

(R7) And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
(T16) And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.

(R8-9) And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them. But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
(T17) Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

(R10) For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
(T18) For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

(T19) When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

(R11) But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
(T20) But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

(T21) The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.

(R12-13) And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews? And they cried out again, Crucify him.
(T22) Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

(R14) Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.
(T23) And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

(T24-25) When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

(R15) And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
(T26) Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

The problem with the Q source hypothesis is that we have no surviving copies. At this point one would have thought we'd have something. If they were all destroyed, but the other gospels weren't, that needs to be explained somehow. The true development could have been a lot messier.



 
I'm confused about why Dr Z thinks the Q Source is relevant to the Pilate accounts. My post compares the Pilate accounts in Mark and Matthew. The Q Source is defined as material present in Mathew and Luke but missing from Mark.

The notable difference between the two accounts I compared is that Matthew speaks of Pilate washing his hands and Pilate's wife having a dream. But these details are missing from Luke and therefore presumably missing from "Q."
 
The problem with the Q source hypothesis is that we have no surviving copies. At this point one would have thought we'd have something. If they were all destroyed, but the other gospels weren't, that needs to be explained somehow.

:confused2: The earliest Gospel manuscript known is a tiny papyrus fragment containing some verses from the Gospel of John. It is dated to the 2nd century. Yes, that's "2nd" with a "2."

IOW, such old manuscripts are hard to come by. I've attached an image of a papyrus dated to the 3rd century which contains most of Matthew Chapter 1. This treasure is held at the Penn Museum. 3rd century. Yes, with a "3."

(I've attached the image twice. Has IIDB Image Rendering become weird?)

What's the point? These manuscripts are exceedingly rare. (And in some cases, poverty and the perishability of papyrus meant that sources used oral memorization rather than papyrus or vellum. Poetry was often used instead of prose because poetry is easier to memorize.) The idea that Q-Source never existed if no manuscript has turned up is -- to be polite about it -- just wrong.

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