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Historical Jesus

The idea that Q-Source never existed if no manuscript has turned up is -- to be polite about it -- just wrong.
I remember reading a little book about Q once. The author seemed to think that the most likely explanation was that Q wasn't really a cohesive work, but a collection of folk stories shared orally. Likely predating Historical Jesus. They'd be easy to incorporate into the Legend, particularly once the Movement wasn't in Judea any more, but faraway places like Rome.
Tom
 
Anyone who could turn water intoi wine would certainly be on the social A list.
Maybe that's how the story really happened. Jesus was familiar enough with the host of the feast to know where he kept his "private stock".
When the wine intended for the party ran out, He told the staff how to find it.
YAY! JESUS SAVES the party. :)
Tom
 
Theater to wine story sounds like metaohor for something,

To really understand we'd have to know the language as it was spoken by Jesus and all the colloquial expressions and ways of talking and expressing ideas.

I read Wilhelm's translation of the Chiese I Ching. In the intro he goes through th cultural meaning of the images used. 'Heaven and Earth' as I remember it meant the aristocracy above and the peasants below.
 
Theater to wine story sounds like metaohor for something,
That's one of the best things about literature, especially legends and scripture.
Multiple layers of meaning.

If you're so poor you're food insecure, a divine hero who magically created sustenance, food and drink, would be very attractive. If you're a bit more sophisticated you might see it as a metaphor for creating enlightenment. It still works.
Tom
 
The idea that Q-Source never existed if no manuscript has turned up is -- to be polite about it -- just wrong.
I remember reading a little book about Q once. The author seemed to think that the most likely explanation was that Q wasn't really a cohesive work, but a collection of folk stories shared orally. Likely predating Historical Jesus. They'd be easy to incorporate into the Legend, particularly once the Movement wasn't in Judea any more, but faraway places like Rome.
Tom
Here's a detailed look at what parts of the Gospels are in "Q." As I just wrote above, much of the text -- whether written on papyrus or not -- was composed as poetry or song for ease of memorization. These poems were in Hebrew or Aramaic of course and incorporated the poetic devices like simile, parallelism, punning, alliteration and hendiadys which scholars were already familiar with from the Old Testament.

The original texts (or songs) have been lost but by reverse-translating the Greek of the Gospels back into a Northwest Semitic language the poetry is very apparent. Adherents to Dr. Richard Carrier's cult insist that the Gospels were originally written in Greek (or "Semitized Greek"). But Carrierists are as laughably deluded as the Christian fundamentalists they despise!

As someone pointed out, the "Q Source" has not turned up outside Matthew, Luke and (non-canonical) Thomas. But this is not evidence that "Q didn't exist" -- whatever that means. It is evidence that Q is unique specifically to early Christian writings. In other words, Q was composed by early Christians about Jesus of Nazareth. Parts of Q might have been developed a bit earlier, especially during the ministry of John the Baptist, and thus preceded the Nazarene's fame, but Q was probably NOT composed decades earlier, waiting for a random messiah to "fill in the blanks."
 
Lord Raglan's hero profile | Atheism | Fandom

Why aren't there ever any stories like these about recent ones?
  • Southern plantation owners vs. Abraham Lincoln
  • Fundamentalists vs. Charles Darwin
  • Rabbis, Jewish bankers, and Jewish Marxists vs. Adolf Hitler
  • Psychiatrists vs. L. Ron Hubbard
  • Oil-company executives vs. Muammar Gaddafi
Could you be looking in the wrong places? Perhaps, try this one instead??
  • Satanic pedophiles vs Donald Trump
(Don then attempted a QAnonized version)

I'll play it straight, with  Donald Trump
  1. Hero’s mother is a royal virgin; -- Mary Anne MacLeod -- from a very poor family with nothing notable: 0
  2. His father is a king, and -- Fred Trump -- real-estate developer: 1
  3. Often a near relative of his mother, but -- 0
  4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and -- 0
  5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god. -- 0
  6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather to kill him, but -- 0
  7. He is spirited away, and -- his parents don't go anywhere: 0
  8. Reared by foster-parents in a far country. -- 0
  9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but -- we do learn some details: 0
  10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom. -- he never had to return: 0
  11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast, -- Hillary Clinton in 2016: 1
  12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and -- Ivana Zelníčková, Maria Maples, and Melanija Knavs (Melania Knauss) were fashion models: 1
  13. And becomes king. -- yes, elected President: 1
  14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and -- his Presidency was rather tumultuous: 0
  15. Prescribes laws, but -- his would-be ban on Muslims entering the US, for instance: 1
  16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and -- he lost the 2020 election, but his followers still love him: 0
  17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which -- he is facing criminal charges, but he is still in the 2024 Presidential race: 0
  18. He meets with a mysterious death,
  19. Often at the top of a hill,
  20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
  21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
  22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.
Score: 5 out of 17.

Just for the heck of it, I considered Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, with appropriate regendering of the criteria. Her only nonzero ones:
  • 7. Her family moved from their original home, the Bronx, to a suburb, Yorktown Heights for nicer schools
  • 10. After going to college, she returned to her old home, the Bronx
  • 11. She defeated long-time incumbent Joe Crowley
  • 13. She was elected US Representative for House district NY-14
  • 15. She has written several bills, amendments, and resolutions
That's 5 out of 15.
 
Lord Raglan's hero profile | Atheism | Fandom

Why aren't there ever any stories like these about recent ones?
  • Southern plantation owners vs. Abraham Lincoln
  • Fundamentalists vs. Charles Darwin
  • Rabbis, Jewish bankers, and Jewish Marxists vs. Adolf Hitler
  • Psychiatrists vs. L. Ron Hubbard
  • Oil-company executives vs. Muammar Gaddafi
Could you be looking in the wrong places? Perhaps, try this one instead??
  • Satanic pedophiles vs Donald Trump
(Don then attempted a QAnonized version)

I'll play it straight, with  Donald Trump
  1. Hero’s mother is a royal virgin; -- Mary Anne MacLeod -- from a very poor family with nothing notable: 0
  2. His father is a king, and -- Fred Trump -- real-estate developer: 1
  3. Often a near relative of his mother, but -- 0
  4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and -- 0
  5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god. -- 0
  6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather to kill him, but -- 0
  7. He is spirited away, and -- his parents don't go anywhere: 0
  8. Reared by foster-parents in a far country. -- 0
  9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but -- we do learn some details: 0
  10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom. -- he never had to return: 0
  11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast, -- Hillary Clinton in 2016: 1
  12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and -- Ivana Zelníčková, Maria Maples, and Melanija Knavs (Melania Knauss) were fashion models: 1
  13. And becomes king. -- yes, elected President: 1
  14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and -- his Presidency was rather tumultuous: 0
  15. Prescribes laws, but -- his would-be ban on Muslims entering the US, for instance: 1
  16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and -- he lost the 2020 election, but his followers still love him: 0
  17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which -- he is facing criminal charges, but he is still in the 2024 Presidential race: 0
  18. He meets with a mysterious death,
  19. Often at the top of a hill,
  20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
  21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
  22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.
Score: 5 out of 17.

Just for the heck of it, I considered Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, with appropriate regendering of the criteria. Her only nonzero ones:
  • 7. Her family moved from their original home, the Bronx, to a suburb, Yorktown Heights for nicer schools
  • 10. After going to college, she returned to her old home, the Bronx
  • 11. She defeated long-time incumbent Joe Crowley
  • 13. She was elected US Representative for House district NY-14
  • 15. She has written several bills, amendments, and resolutions
That's 5 out of 15.

I think I have a couple of minor quibbles here. Do we actually know something of Jesus's childhood, too, because there are non-canonical works where he is alleged to kill some children etc? If we only take canonical narratives that have been decided much later than written, isn't that biasing the overall narrative toward the typical hero ethos? How do we decide to pick and choose the stories to accept and then apply the hero criteria?

Regarding Trump, it could be said he was raised by foster parents figuratively at the military school. I don't think it needs to be in a far off land so much as in a protected space where his powers can be honed.

Another character to consider is probably Simba. We do see a bit about his childhood and how far away really is it? There are barriers to get there such as thorny bushes and a desert but the function of those things is to make a protected space where Simba grows.

I would be interested anyway to see Simba scored.

Lastly, I have to wonder how much the criteria are conflating history and fantasy in analysis. For example, in modern times we do not typically have monarchies or tyrants who also believe in prophecies. Historically, this seems a typical thing where some tyrant hears a prophecy and then decides to kill off the enemies' children or whatever. (Consider also Chronicles of Riddick which is another fantasy but still...). It seems like there could be some linkage between monarchies and other very authoritarian regimes that occurred more often in history and belief in prophecies. There's also, aside from prophecies, maybe a factor of patrilineal inheritance of the throne that could play into both histories and made up stories of old that we might not see too much in modern times. For example, the wicked uncle who was jealous that his brother was king and then the king has a son who will inherit the throne...is both real history and fantasy stories, but we wouldn't see it in modern times.

What would be the analogy in, say, the U.S.? Perhaps, a Republican President would try to completely destroy or ban the Democratic Party?

Lastly, how would you distinguish between a purely historical figure and an historical figure who has become mythicized according to the hero ethos with this methodology? We already know that the narratives are embellished with supernatural events. So, why wouldn't it also be true that some historical figures are embellished with some of the hero features in order to substantiate them as divine or rightful leaders in the minds of followers?
 
I find the Jesus/Trump nexus stronger than indicated above. In fact, I consider the bullet points to be Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

1) Magnificent head of tawny-golden hair (who ya gonna believe, ethnologists or the dentist office children's Bible?)
2) Promised the downtrodden a glorious future, while doing nothing tangible for them
3) Consorted with whores
4) Colleagues included Peter (Navarro), John (Bolton), and Matthew (Pottinger)
5) Betrayed by member of inner circle (Cohen)
6) Apparent holder of a delusional, grandiose self-image
7) Flew into unaccountable rages (at fig trees/caravans)
8) Resorted to name calling (serpents, generation of vipers, fool/very bad people, scum of the earth, sleeping son of a bitch)
9) Quite popular in West Virginia
10) Tucker Carlson claims to believe in him (or Him, if it's Trump), but... deep down...
11) His followers looked at his utter defeat and proclaimed it was actually a victory
12) A Q document is central to his story
13) Says he will return, bringing justice and retribution...stay tuned.
 
I find the Jesus/Trump nexus stronger than indicated above. In fact, I consider the bullet points to be Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

1) Magnificent head of tawny-golden hair (who ya gonna believe, ethnologists or the dentist office children's Bible?)
2) Promised the downtrodden a glorious future, while doing nothing tangible for them
3) Consorted with whores
4) Colleagues included Peter (Navarro), John (Bolton), and Matthew (Pottinger)
5) Betrayed by member of inner circle (Cohen)
6) Apparent holder of a delusional, grandiose self-image
7) Flew into unaccountable rages (at fig trees/caravans)
8) Resorted to name calling (serpents, generation of vipers, fool/very bad people, scum of the earth, sleeping son of a bitch)
9) Quite popular in West Virginia
10) Tucker Carlson claims to believe in him (or Him, if it's Trump), but... deep down...
11) His followers looked at his utter defeat and proclaimed it was actually a victory
12) A Q document is central to his story
13) Says he will return, bringing justice and retribution...stay tuned.

There wasn't a Like button big enough so I had to echo ideologyhunter's post.

:hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse:
 
I find the Jesus/Trump nexus stronger than indicated above. In fact, I consider the bullet points to be Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

1) Magnificent head of tawny-golden hair (who ya gonna believe, ethnologists or the dentist office children's Bible?)
2) Promised the downtrodden a glorious future, while doing nothing tangible for them
3) Consorted with whores
4) Colleagues included Peter (Navarro), John (Bolton), and Matthew (Pottinger)
5) Betrayed by member of inner circle (Cohen)
6) Apparent holder of a delusional, grandiose self-image
7) Flew into unaccountable rages (at fig trees/caravans)
8) Resorted to name calling (serpents, generation of vipers, fool/very bad people, scum of the earth, sleeping son of a bitch)
9) Quite popular in West Virginia
10) Tucker Carlson claims to believe in him (or Him, if it's Trump), but... deep down...
11) His followers looked at his utter defeat and proclaimed it was actually a victory
12) A Q document is central to his story
13) Says he will return, bringing justice and retribution...stay tuned.

There wasn't a Like button big enough so I had to echo ideologyhunter's post.

:hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse::hobbyhorse:

I just re-read it again.

Ideologyhunter: If this is original you need to copyright it real quick and make a fortune!
 
I think I have a couple of minor quibbles here. Do we actually know something of Jesus's childhood, too, because there are non-canonical works where he is alleged to kill some children etc?
In Luke 2:41-51 we find a child-prodigy story. JC's family would visit the Jerusalem Temple for Passover, and when JC was 12, his parents accidentally left him behind. When they realized his absence, they looked for him, and they decided to return to Jerusalem to look for him there. They found him with some religious leaders there, and he was listening to them and asking them questions. They asked him why he treated them like that, with them doing a lot of searching for him. He responded "Why were you looking for me? Didn't you know that I must be in my Father's house?"

Which seems more snotty than compassionate.

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas - little boy Jesus Christ zapped another little boy who bumped into him.

That's all in character with the canonical parts of the Bible, it must be noted.
Testimonials Carrier » Internet Infidels - "Though called a wise father, there is not a single example in the Old Testament of God sitting down and kindly teaching anyone ..."

Don said:
If we only take canonical narratives that have been decided much later than written, isn't that biasing the overall narrative toward the typical hero ethos? How do we decide to pick and choose the stories to accept and then apply the hero criteria?
That may well be the case, but we can only work with what we have. Those early biographies may well exist, but none of them have survived, let alone be made canonical.
Regarding Trump, it could be said he was raised by foster parents figuratively at the military school. I don't think it needs to be in a far off land so much as in a protected space where his powers can be honed.
That's not quite his parents fleeing with him to some other land. AOC fits better than him, because her parents moved to a NYC suburb, though it was not to protect her from some horrible villain who wanted to kill her in her infancy.

Another character to consider is probably Simba. ...
Who's Simba?
 
Don said:
Lastly, I have to wonder how much the criteria are conflating history and fantasy in analysis.
But our sources had already mixed up history and fantasy. How would you propose to distinguish them?
For example, in modern times we do not typically have monarchies or tyrants who also believe in prophecies. Historically, this seems a typical thing where some tyrant hears a prophecy and then decides to kill off the enemies' children or whatever.
Trying to kill one's competition is a plausible motive, but it's usually of more immediate threats.  Herod the Great is described as ordering the deaths of several relatives: wife Mariamne I's brother Aristobulus III, Mariamne I herself and her mother Alexandra, sister Salome I's husband Kostobar, sons Alexander, Aristobulus, and Antipater.

But would he take seriously a prophecy stated by a bunch of astrologers that he'd never heard of before?
Lastly, how would you distinguish between a purely historical figure and an historical figure who has become mythicized according to the hero ethos with this methodology? We already know that the narratives are embellished with supernatural events. So, why wouldn't it also be true that some historical figures are embellished with some of the hero features in order to substantiate them as divine or rightful leaders in the minds of followers?
That's why I got started with Lord Raglan's hero profile. People usually considered mythological usually score high in it, while well-documented people usually score low in it.
 
Looking at Lord Raglan's profile and Richard Carrier's extensions, it's remarkable how different well-documented heroes are from legendary heroes, especially those of the last few centuries.

They often have less-than-notable ancestry.

Nobody has any idea that they are coming, and nobody tries to thwart that coming, like trying to kill them in their infancy.

They almost always live in their "kingdoms" for their entire lives, except for visits and military service and the like -- they are not taken elsewhere to protect them from some villains who tried to kill them.

They often come to power relatively uneventfully, without having to fight some big enemy.

They are only rarely repudiated by their subjects; some well-documented examples are Richard Nixon, Mikhail Gorbachev, and Muammar Gaddafi. Napoleon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler continued to have diehard followers even when defeated.

Dying in a low place is at least as common as dying in a high place. The main high-place death I can think of is the shooting of Abraham Lincoln in an upper deck of a theater, while I know of two low-place deaths: Adolf Hitler committing suicide in a bunker, and Muammar Gaddafi being discovered in a storm drain and then lynched.


What we have of Jesus Christ from his early followers much more resembles legendary heroes than well-documented ones.
 
If there is some controversy over the big J's historicity, then maybe it's time to get rid of the A.D. counting system and make it more contemporary. Personally, I'd be fine with counting time based on the years since Otis Redding's birth...or Janis Joplin's. Those people we have high school yearbooks and videos and cd's for. Right now we're in the year 62 A.O. (Anno Otisia) or 60 A.J. (Anno Janisia). However, I take back this concept if the honor goes to Billy Ray Cyrus, Ted Nugent, Whitney Houston, or Barbra Streisand.
(Any younger folk who don't know Otis or Janis, go right now to google and find Otis's renditions of Scratch My Back, Fool for You, or My Lover's Prayer, and Janis singing Me and Bobby McGee, Trust Me, or Summertime.)
 
If there is some controversy over the big J's historicity, then maybe it's time to get rid of the A.D. counting system and make it more contemporary. Personally, I'd be fine with counting time based on the years since Otis Redding's birth...or Janis Joplin's. Those people we have high school yearbooks and videos and cd's for. Right now we're in the year 62 A.O. (Anno Otisia) or 60 A.J. (Anno Janisia). However, I take back this concept if the honor goes to Billy Ray Cyrus, Ted Nugent, Whitney Houston, or Barbra Streisand.
(Any younger folk who don't know Otis or Janis, go right now to google and find Otis's renditions of Scratch My Back, Fool for You, or My Lover's Prayer, and Janis singing Me and Bobby McGee, Trust Me, or Summertime.)
I think it was Asimov who suggested a calendar based on the nuclear age, with the first nuclear weapons detonation(s) as the epoch, separating time into the pre-nuclear and nuclear ages.

As this epoch can be identified both archaeologically and geologically, and will be detectable (or at least, its first decade will be) for many thousands of years in this way due to atmospheric testing, it is also protected against the vagaries of history to some extent.
 
Who killed Jesus? and Why?
or rather, who most wanted him dead because he was a threat to them?

So, why must we assume Jesus had to be another deluded member of any such group, on a Holy Crusade to save "The Chosen People" from the Greek-Roman Menace trying to enslave or exterminate them?
Because that is what he was tried and sentenced to crucifixion for.
Maybe, sort of, but only in the sense that he was falsely accused and falsely convicted of this. There's no evidence of him being an anti-Roman insurrectionist/dissident, no reason to believe he was guilty of this or was on any such crusade. The militant anti-Roman rebel Jews were a tiny minority of the population. Most 1st-century Jews did not identify with the fanatic anti-Roman zealots or join their crusade against the Sons of Darkness. (Which doesn't mean they were pro-Roman. A very small minority were pro-Roman, most were neutral, against war.)

Just because the Apocalyptic and anti-Roman fanatics were loud and aggressive at imposing their superstitious ideas onto others, and partly succeeded at dominating and intimidating the silent majority, does not mean Jesus must have been one of them. Why couldn't he have been one of the 90% of Jews who were not anti-Gentile bigots? Why couldn't there have been some Jews, even many, who had a higher-level mentality than the petty nationalist xenophobe pseudopatriotic fanatic dogmatists (like the one who told Babylonians "Blessed is he who seizes your infants and smashes them against the rock!" (Psalm 137))?

We need to stop drinking the Bart Ehrman Kool-Aid which says all Jews had to be partakers of this bigoted Apocalyptic anti-Gentile Jihad Fantasy of the world coming to an end this Tuesday (or a week from Tuesday) when the Sons of Light (our side) is going to crush the Sons of Darkness (bad guys) and all those not in our cult will be cast into the Eternal Flames. Just stop it! Not all Jews believed such nuttiness, and we needn't believe Jesus was part of that mentality. The evidence shows he was something different than this.


The militant Jewish Apocalypticists were disunited
driven by conflicting messianic expectations.


The various Jewish dissidents and eschatologists typically opposed other Jews as the enemy, clashing with the other factions and even fighting and killing each other over which faction was truly obeying the program of Yahweh. Some of these militants, dogmatic, belligerent, needing an enemy to hate, were attracted to Jesus, not because he was preaching their message, but because he showed something that impressed them, i.e., POWER (the healing miracle acts) -- maybe his power could kill Yahweh's enemies in the Final Conflagration to come, maybe he's the conquering Son of Man. It's virtually certain that some of these Apocalyptic crusaders later put their words into his mouth, so that it's their ideas we're getting in many of the Apocalyptic excerpts in the Gospels.

Despite their hopes, there's no evidence that Jesus carried on an anti-Roman crusade or tried to organize anti-Roman insurrection activity. Rather, there's much indication of him opposing the Jerusalem priesthood or other Jews of influence or status, and this also drew the dissidents to him.

But meanwhile, those dissident militants who were executed on insurrection charges were those who organized rebels to take up arms to do battle against Rome. There's no evidence of Jesus doing such anti-Roman military activity, or inciting the crowds against Roman political domination. There is some militant language in the Gospels, about grabbing your sword and resisting the enemy to the death, but these are likely to be the words of the militant crusaders putting their words into his mouth. YET, EVEN if we assume Jesus said such things, there's never any anti-Roman language.



Was Jesus a Jewish Jedi Freedom-Fighter against
the Roman Evil Empire?

Obi-Wan-Kenobi vs. The Dark Side? This theory of him as an anti-Roman political/military macho-warrior activist is not based on written accounts about him, but only on modern extrapolation from historical events of the time, i.e., by modern theorists superimposing onto him the 1st-century historical drama (Roman Evil Empire vs. Jewish Freedom-Fighters) to somehow explain how Jesus got mythologized from a normal human into a miracle resurrected Son-of-God Jewish Messiah hero/martyr. The evidence is not that he was militant, but that some of the militant crusaders were attracted to him, because of his miracle acts.

If he really was an anti-Roman Freedom-Fighter himself, like the others, why did he alone get transformed into a resurrected miracle-working Son of God, rather than any of the other anti-Roman Freedom-Fighters who did much better than he did in fighting against the Romans? in real battle against Rome? There are no facts in the written record then to justify this modern theory of why he was condemned. It's only conjecture, using other facts not directly about the historical Jesus.

And how do these theorists explain that there are no facts (about the historical Jesus) to support their theory that he was anti-Roman? They resort to Conspiracy Theories about the evidence being suppressed, censored, covered up by a wide Conspiracy of the Church or the Establishment. It's easy to dismiss the facts of history by saying these were all just made up by some Conspiracy-Elitist-Establishment. You can prove any cock-eyed theory by saying the evidence for it was all suppressed by some Vast Conspiracy Plot to cover up the truth.

So let's reconsider the motives for killing Jesus, using the known facts in place of the conjecture and conspiracy theories and coverup delusions.


Who hated Jesus more and wanted him dead?
"The Romans" or "The Jews"?

Those who arrested him were not Romans, but the Temple Police sent by the Jewish Establishment in Jerusalem. Without this action by them there would have been no arrest and no charges brought against him. There's no evidence of Romans conducting a manhunt to seize Jesus for crimes against Rome.

Some dishonest scholars today pretend that the ones who arrested Jesus were Romans, or that Romans played a major part. This is false, or worse, it's a lie which some theorists are promoting, and they should cut it out, instead tell the truth, which is plain from the text.

All four Gospels make it clear that it was the Temple Authorities who sent the guards to arrest him. It's true that the John Gospel wording allows the possible interpretation of Roman soldiers being there, but even then, it was the Temple priests who sent the soldiers. And for Jewish officials to send Roman troops, issuing ORDERS to Roman soldiers, is very unlikely.

So let's get our facts straight: it was the Jewish leaders who initiated the action against Jesus, ordering his arrest. So -- Why did these Jewish leaders want Jesus arrested and charged? This is where the motivation to condemn him begins. What was their motive? Was it obedience to a Roman demand that they take action to arrest him?


Was Jesus a militant anti-Roman threat?

There's no evidence of this and no reason to think they demanded that he be seized or arrested as a threat. There's no evidence that the Romans demanded arrest or seizure of loose trouble-maker prophets or preachers to be crucified as possibly dangerous. An analogy to the Jesus case would be John the Baptizer, who was high-profile, and anti-Establishment but not anti-Roman in any quotes or other evidence about him, and who was arrested and executed not by Romans but by Herod Antipas, who was not ordered by Romans to do this. Arguably, the Baptizer was a more dangerous figure than Jesus, as a potential trouble-maker, as Josephus describes Antipas reacting to John. So if you draw an analogy between these two cases, then it's clear that Jesus was NOT a threat to Rome, just as John obviously was not.

Herod Antipas feared John as a threat to his power, and the Jewish Establishment in Jerusalem feared Jesus as a threat to them, but in neither case was the accused one guilty of any anti-Roman crime.

All the evidence is that Jesus had done something which offended certain Jews, not something anti-Roman or seditious against Rome. To insist it was anti-Roman insurrection offenses that got him into trouble, you have to disregard all the evidence in the written accounts and rely on conspiracy theories to explain away this evidence and pretend that other evidence was covered up by some Christian Establishment clique somewhere who plotted to blame "the Jews" for killing Jesus and shift blame away from Pilate.

The Romans did not hunt down and crucify every Jewish preacher having messianic visions of some kind, or speaking a messianic or eschatological message. They arrested and executed the ones who had a high profile for some reason, and who posed a real threat, like those who led a military campaign or in some other way came to their attention as a rebel military organizer or propagandist inciting insurrection against Roman power. There were many other prophets/preachers/rabbis in Palestine-Judea-Galilee who had a higher profile than Jesus, at that time, who were more conspicuous than he was, had more followers, attracted larger crowds, were more influential than he was. Just as the Romans did not order these others to be arrested, they did not order Jesus to be arrested.


When did Jesus claim to be "King of the Jews"?

The only evidence of anything anti-Roman about him is the inscription "King of the Jews" placed above him, which means there was some claim like this made about him. But he's never quoted claiming this about himself, and if he had said it there would be some such quote attributed to him, as many other sayings were put into his mouth, by earlier Jewish Apocalypticists who put words into his mouth just as later Christians did. And we do see some Apocalyptic words in the mouth of Jesus, but never any anti-Roman words attributed to him. Why not? Probably because he never even came close to saying such things, whereas some of his words could be given an Apocalyptic twist by the original followers who thought he was preaching an End-of-the-World message they were familiar with, like from the Book of I Enoch or the Book of Daniel, etc. These were not anti-Roman sermons.

We have to ask how Jesus came to the attention of the Romans, so that they might decide to kill him as a menace. Once he was brought before them and accused, then they would make such a judgment. But not without someone first arresting Jesus and bringing him to the Roman authorities to be condemned.

What prompted Rome to execute Jewish rebels? What were the circumstances leading to it?

Not just why did they kill them -- i.e., the legal charge -- of course they wanted to kill/crucify anyone suspected. But how did they come to suspect someone, and to arrest and kill them? Wasn't it the following 2 situations --

1) the rebels were turned over to the Romans by the Jewish authorities, or

2) they were directly taken captive in battle between Romans and militant rebels,

and then they were quickly condemned to death and executed. Was there any other way than these two?

In the case of Jesus it was not 2) above, was it? Does anyone believe Jesus was commanding a platoon of rebel fighters, like the ones mentioned in Josephus? like Theudas, or The Egyptian, or Judas the Galilean? There's no evidence whatever of anything military undertaken by him, recruiting a fighting force, etc. Yes, there's mention of one who carried a sword, but the perceived enemy was always the Jewish authorities, not the Romans. And these militants were attracted to Jesus as a possible leader in their minds, maybe the Son of Man conqueror of the Prophet Daniel. None of his quoted words ever named Rome as an enemy. And probably most of the words were not his words anyway. Without contrary evidence, we have to believe he was involved in some conflict with Jewish elements, opposed by certain Jews who saw him as undermining Jewish practice or tradition.

So, without 1) above having happened -- i.e., Jesus was first seized by the Jewish authorities and turned over -- he would not have been condemned to death by the Romans. So, the reason he was crucified was not just that the Romans suspected he might be an anti-Roman rebel, but that he had done something conspicuous which made him stand out as anti-Jewish in some way, causing the Jewish authorities to fear him and turn him over, and thus causing the Romans to consider him a threat to be stamped out.

So you're not telling the whole truth to say only
that [he was on a crusade to save the Jews from the Romans] is what he was tried and sentenced to crucifixion for.
There had to be more than this or he would not have been condemned by the Romans. We have to know what particular act of his (or of someone), or what particular event, prompted the Jewish authorities to arrest him and turn him over to the Romans. Because without them doing this, the Romans would not have crucified him.


Rome did not do raids to round up Apocalyptic crusaders.

If it's just that he was an Apocalyptic preacher, why weren't others also arrested and crucified? What about the Qumran community -- did the Romans invade the Dead Sea caves region and drag off the monks to be crucified? These crusaders preached a soon-coming War between themselves and the Sons of Darkness -- why wasn't that also a threat to the Romans?

Except for the Jerusalem Establishment turning him over, he would not have been accused and condemned -- there's no evidence that the Romans were chasing him or other prophets around somewhere -- or that they were holding emergency sessions on the "Jesus problem" etc. There's no evidence that Pilate or other Romans knew of him except for this event of the Jewish authorities first arresting him and taking him to Pilate.

All the evidence, throughout the Gospel accounts, says there were Jews with whom he was in conflict, and these were the ones who took steps against him. And only from this did there develop an occasion for the Romans to take action against him. (Also, we can assume some of the clash with "scribes and pharisees" language is exaggerated, in the Gospels. But this is evidence of serious conflict with those Jewish factions.)



What anti-Roman or criminal acts did Jesus do?

There are 2 possible criminal acts he did, neither of them anti-Roman:

1) pretending to be "the Messiah" riding into Jerusalem on a donkey; and

2) inciting a riot at the temple, assaulting temple workers and destroying property.

Other than this there's nothing he did illegal which he should be punished for. Were these anti-Roman acts which Pilate would have him arrested for and crucified?

1) The Donkey Stunt: Even if Jesus really did perform this stunt, riding into Jerusalem like this, there's no reason to think the Romans cared about someone riding a donkey. How often did the Romans arrest someone for riding a donkey and saying "Look at me! I'm the Messiah 'cuz I'm riding a donkey!"?? Cut it out! It's silly to say the Romans were offended at this and would send commandos to put a stop to a donkey ride show.

It's hard to understand how this ludicrous scene really originated -- Not that we can dismiss it as fiction -- some such goofy stunt was done by someone, because this story is in all 4 accounts. But whatever it is, it makes no sense to say the Romans were alarmed at Jesus doing this stunt pretending to be important because some ancient prophet predicted something about riding a donkey. The Romans had more important things to do than running around arresting oddball Jewish eccentrics caught riding a donkey.

2) Assault on the Temple: It's unlikely Jesus really committed this crime, because if he had, he would have been arrested like the others were. Hopefully he's not the one who instigated the riot.

But let's assume he did what is described, assaulting the moneychangers. Even so, this was not an anti-Roman act. Rather, it expresses the sentiment of Jewish dissidents who hated the temple authorities and priesthood. It's also a cheap sensationalist outburst against those doing commercial activity or making a profit or investing, speculating, etc., an expression of vulgar prejudice against these interests who are seen as being greedy and causing others to be poor, even though they're not to blame for any such thing but are engaging in a legitimate business activity needed by the temple authorities.

It's easy to see how the vulgar apocalyptic messianic ideologues might have inspired a riot like this, scapegoating an innocent class of persons, for-profit operators, who have a negative public image. The victims of this violence, the moneychangers, were themselves of lower status, struggling to survive, serving where they were needed. There's no evidence they were crooked -- they were just scapegoats guilty of trying to eke out a profit or minimize their losses.

But even if Jesus did commit this crime, it would not be for this that Romans wanted Jesus dead. This sensationalist attack on the temple was a crime against the Jewish Establishment, not Rome. Since all 4 accounts report the incident, we have to assume it happened, and Jesus got blamed as the instigator.


Did Jesus freak out?

Even assuming the worst -- maybe Jesus suddenly went bonkers and assaulted people and kicked over some tables, etc. -- the Romans would never have cared if the Jewish authorities had not then seized Jesus and taken him before Pilate to be executed as an anti-Roman rebel. So this means he was condemned for committing this criminal act, which was an anti-Jewish act, targeted at the Jewish Establishment, not the Romans. And so it's still incorrect to say Jesus was condemned as a result of being an anti-Roman dissident -- even if this was the official charge. And the Jewish Establishment in Jerusalem was the main source of the action against him, by persuading Pilate that he was anti-Roman.

But, why did they do this rather than just executing Jesus themselves?


death penalty very rare in Jewish law

The Jewish authorities in Jerusalem had the power to execute Jesus themselves, by stoning or beheading -- nothing in Roman law prevented this. John the Baptizer had been executed earlier by Herod Antipas. So why not also the same being done to Jesus in Jerusalem? The difference is that the death penalty under Jewish law (in Jerusalem) was very difficult to carry out, even though it was legal. The reality is that Jewish law made it so difficult that it would have required too long, or maybe would have been impossible or impractical. It would have turned the Jesus case into a high-profile publicized event which would have dragged on for many days or weeks. Much more desirable was to have him eliminated quickly with the least amount of fanfare. This could be done by accusing him of something anti-Roman and taking him before Pilate, who had no restriction to prevent him from issuing the order immediately and getting it over.

So this is probably what happened, even if we assume that Jesus was fully guilty of the crime against the Temple, assaulting the moneychangers. Even then there is still no evidence of anything anti-Roman per se in this crime he may have committed. If he did have anti-Roman sentiments, there's no evidence of it -- it's pure conjecture only.


Was the Temple riot the real reason, or
only a PRETEXT for arresting Jesus?


BUT, is this attack on the Temple really the reason the Jewish Establishment wanted Jesus dead? Was there another reason? or other reasons?

There's reason to suspect the Temple authorities had a different motive than legal retaliation against Jesus for inciting a riot. An indication is the Barabbas character who was arrested as a participant in the riot which was probably the same scene where Jesus assaulted the moneychangers -- And this rioter was charged with murder and yet was released, according to all 4 accounts.

We have to ask: If this riot was such a serious crime that Jesus would be executed for inciting it, why would Barabbas be released even though he was guilty of murder while participating in this riot? There's clearly something wrong in this Barabbas story -- something missing, and yet it cannot be dismissed as total fiction (unless you just say the evidence doesn't matter because your prejudice is more important than the facts). Almost certainly Barabbas was guilty and yet was released, even though we lack the whole explanation of what this was about. (Efforts to render the Barabbas story into a literary symbol or metaphor are ludicrous, laughable. No poet needing a symbol to communicate would make up a story like this, and there's no way such a metaphor would find its way into all the accounts of the event.)

So a guilty man was set free, according to the evidence, while an innocent man was condemned, as the accounts all agree -- such things do happen -- sometimes justice is thwarted, the innocent are blamed while the guilty go free, because of something underhanded taking place.

We don't need to know the full explanation in order to recognize the basic fact that a guilty person was released. There are many ways it could have happened -- maybe a deal was struck: the Jewish authorities wanted Jesus arrested and removed, for some reason, while Barabbas by comparison was insignificant, and they could release him as someone much less threatening to them. Since Barabbas was in custody while Jesus was loose out there, they could make a deal with someone sympathetic to Barabbas, to do a trade -- "Turn Jesus over to us, and we'll release Barabbas in return."

Here's an article suggesting maybe Judas Iscariot was an anti-Roman dissident who had hoped Jesus would lead an insurrection against Rome and/or the Jerusalem Establishment, and when Jesus failed to fulfill this expectation and Barabbas got arrested at the riot, Judas became disenchanted with Jesus and went to the Priests to make a deal:


Regardless what the details were, all 4 accounts say Barabbas was released even though he was guilty of murder. Which casts serious doubt on the charge against Jesus -- those priests probably had some other motive for wanting Jesus snuffed out.

It was too difficult under Jewish law for the Jerusalem Establishment to simply condemn Jesus to death, in their own court, but they knew it was easy to get a conviction under Roman law, and so an appeal to the Roman Governor would likely succeed and a quick sentence of death could be carried out, to put a quick end to the Jesus problem.

But what was this Jesus problem they wanted to put an end to?


(this Wall of Text to be continued)
 
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Who killed Jesus? and Why?
or rather, who most wanted him dead because he was a threat to them?


(continued from previous Wall of Text)


How was Jesus a threat to "the Jews"?

The above explanation works, provided that Jesus actually did pose a serious threat to Judaism, or to the Jewish Establishment, or to Jewish tradition -- not to all Jews, but a threat to at least some Jews who were especially important or active, or in high position or power or influence. And this threat was something of much greater substance than simply a donkey ride or a riot in the Temple where he roughed up the moneychangers and did property damage.

Reza Aslan, Iranian-American scholar of sociology of religion, has an answer to this, in his Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, which gives the core element of this threat to 1st-century Judaism (not to Rome), explaining how some Jewish factions, especially the Jewish Establishment in Jerusalem, wanted Jesus to be silenced whatever it would take. In this excerpt (chapter 9 "The Finger of God"), Aslan assumes Jesus actually did perform the healing acts described in the Gospel accounts, and this put him on a collision course with the Jewish tradition and priesthood:

"If by the Finger of God I cast out demons, then surely the Kingdom of God has come upon you." Mt. 12:28.
Jesus' miracles are thus the manifestation of God's Kingdom on earth. It is the Finger of God that heals the blind, the deaf, the mute, the Finger of God that exorcises the demons. Jesus' task is simply to wield that finger as God's agent on earth. Except that God already had agents on earth. They were the ones clothed in fine white robes milling about the temple, hovering over the mountains of incense, in the ceaseless sacrifices. The chief function of the priestly nobility was not only to preside over the temple rituals, but to control access to the Jewish cult.

The very purpose of designing the temple of Jerusalem as a series of ever more restrictive ingressions was to maintain the priestly monopoly over who can and cannot come into the presence of God, and to what degree. The sick, the lame, the leper, the demon-possessed, menstruating women, those with bodily discharges, those who had recently given birth -- none of these were permitted to enter the temple and take part in the Jewish cult, unless first purified according to the priestly code. With every leper cleansed, every paralytic healed, every demon cast out, Jesus was not only challenging that priestly code -- he was invalidating the very purpose of the priesthood.

Thus, in the Gospel of Matthew, when a leper comes to him begging to be healed, Jesus reaches out and touches him, healing his affliction. But he does not stop there. "Go show yourself to the priest," he tells the man. "Offer him as a testimony the things that the Law of Moses commanded, for your cleansing. . . . His command to the leper is . . . a calculated swipe at the priestly code. The leper is not just ill, after all, he is impure, he is ceremonially unclean and unworthy of entering the temple of God. His illness contaminates the entire community.

According to the Law of Moses, to which Jesus refers, the only way for a leper to be cleansed is to complete the most laborious and costly ritual, one that could be conducted solely by a priest. First, the leper must bring the priest two clean birds, along with some cedar wood, crimson yarn and hyssop. One of the birds must be sacrificed immediately, and the living bird, the cedar wood, the yarn, and the hyssop dipped in its blood. The blood must then be sprinkled upon the leper and the living bird released. Seven days later, the leper must shave off all his hair and bathe himself in water. On the 8th day the leper must take two male lambs, free of blemish, and one ewe lamb, also without blemish, along with a grain offering mixed with oil, back to the priest, who'll make of them a burnt offering unto the Lord. The priest must smear the blood from the offering on the leper's right ear lobe, on his right thumb, and on the big toe of his right foot. He must then sprinkle the leper with the oil seven times. Only after all of this . . .
Notice how the required ritual steps are very specific, as every purifying or cleansing ritual practice is done precisely the way demanded by God (or the gods), and religionists doing such practices are very adamant that each step be done just right, so as to keep their angry god pacified.

There were probably many other religionists, outside these Jewish priests, who also were angered at the superior power of Jesus to perform instant cures, healing miracles, getting real results, in competition with religionists, clerics, monks, and practitioners of many kinds, who have only religious rituals which usually are ineffective. So it's easy to see how he would be hated by the many charlatans, witchdoctors, religious gurus pretending to have some power, but really having only their official title as "priest" etc., knowing only their incantations and symbols and ability to perform the ritual correctly.

How many other prophets and "priests" and monks, doing their own rituals and incantations to treat the sick, might there have been who also resented this Jesus miracle-worker who did have real power to heal, rather than only ritual procedures and religious preaching and charisma? How many such "Sons of Light" crusaders might have been present at the "trial" before Pilate (there were hundreds/thousands of them milling around everywhere) and wanted Jesus dead, out of the same envy as that of the Temple priests? Couldn't these have been among those crying "Crucify him!"?

So, a unique, unusual power to perform miracle healing acts easily explains why Jesus was a real problem, a THREAT to the Jewish Establishment at the Jerusalem Temple.

Mark 15:10: "For he [Pilate] perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priests had delivered him up." What "envy" would this be, other than his power to actually heal as opposed to their inability to do anything other than perform rituals?
He is telling him [the cured leper] to present himself to the priest having already been cleansed. This is a direct challenge not only to the priest's authority, but to the temple itself. Jesus did not only heal the leper -- he purified him, making him eligible to appear at the temple as a true Israelite. And he did so for free, as a gift from God. Without tithe, without sacrifice. Thus ceasing for himself the powers granted solely to the priesthood, to deem a man worthy, of entering the presence of God.

Such a blatant attack on the legitimacy of the temple could be scorned and discounted, so long as Jesus remains ensconced in the backwoods of Galilee, but once he and his disciples leave their base in Capernaum and begin slowly making their way to Jerusalem, healing the sick and casting out demons along the way, Jesus' collision with the priestly authorities, and the Roman Empire that supports them, becomes inevitable. Soon the authorities in Jerusalem will no longer be able to ignore this itinerant exorcist and miracle-worker. The closer he draws to the Holy City, the more urgent the need to silence him will become, for it is not just Jesus' miraculous actions that they fear. It is the simple yet incredibly dangerous message conveyed through them: the Kingdom of God is at hand.
We must add here that there were other factions also who were offended at the miracle healing acts of Jesus. It wasn't only the temple priesthood who performed rituals for the sick, but also the Qumran community which had its own ritual procedures for treating sickness, including demon-possession. The rules they followed were all laid out in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and those Yahweh worshipers of Qumran believed that any kind of healing treatments that did not follow the exact procedures in their "Scriptures" was ungodly and wicked magic, and those practicing such magic should be condemned, even stoned to death. They possibly hated Jesus more than the Jerusalem temple priests hated him.


Jesus circumvented religious laws and rituals, traditions

The hate against Jesus for performing healing acts outside the Jewish Law must have angered many different Jewish factions who preached strong adherence to the Mosaic procedures, while Jesus simply said "Your faith has saved you" or "Your faith has healed you." Also there were official procedures prescribed by King Solomon, as cited in Josephus who saw Solomon as an official Divine Law-Giver authorized by Yahweh. Frequently in the accounts Jesus is accused of violating the Law in one way or another, such as violating the Sabbath. This anger against him is similar to the anger against Paul later when he's accused of preaching that the Law is no longer necessary because Jesus saves us apart from the requirements of the Mosaic Law.

It's far more likely that this hate against Jesus the miracle-healer is what led to his arrest and condemnation rather than any insurrection crimes by him against Rome, for which there is no evidence. So we can easily explain why he was condemned, as a result of envy by these Jewish religious factions, based on the facts. Whereas there are no facts showing any such conflict between Jesus and Roman law.


Whether that was true or not is a different question. But Pilate wouldn't have cared about some Jewish theological squabbling.
Any such squabbling would have been ridiculed by Pilate, but as soon as they suggested Jesus was an insurrectionist threat, Pilate would have quickly pronounced the desired death sentence. So it was the priests who wanted this outcome, execution, and they only had to say the right words to Pilate, and then that made it a done deal. Without that initial hate from those Jewish factions, there would have been no Jesus crucifixion.

How normal was it for the priests to drag someone before Pilate -- someone they wanted to get rid of -- no matter who, and get the sentence of death, by only saying the right words about a possible uprising or insurrection? and Pilate would then give the crucifixion order automatically, without questioning the facts of the case? what about for just a petty troublemaker of some kind? Would the priests normally want to do this? How unique was this? We needn't assume this was something common. But the potential is there, if the priests, or the High Priest, those of highest status, see a threat from someone, even something petty, or just a personal grudge.


Example of a petty High Priest with a grudge

We know for sure that the high priests could be corrupted and condemn to death innocent persons, as Josephus attests. He gives the example of James the Just, "brother of Jesus, who was called Christ," (Antiquities 20, ch. 9) where a high priest Ananus condemns James to be stoned to death, by means of a Sanhedrin apparently convened illegally just to issue this order of execution, for which Ananus was later rebuked and replaced as high priest by King Agrippa. So such crooked and unjust actions by the Sanhedrin or high priests did sometimes happen, or perhaps even legally, i.e., by legal technicality. The procedure could be manipulated by the high priest according to his whims in order to get a political enemy condemned.

So, the "trial" of Jesus in the Gospels realistically fits the general pattern of the time, depicting the Jewish accusers, not the Romans, as the ones who basically wanted Jesus dead, and persuading the Roman governor who delivers for them the death penalty they want much more easily than if they had to follow the Jewish law. And it's unlikely to be the Temple riot they're punishing him for, because they're fine with releasing Barabbas who committed murder during that riot.

Rather than a troublemaker starting riots, the threat to these Jewish priests was someone who had unique power to heal and who was attracting large numbers of the physically afflicted, who were desperate and might have otherwise sought the Temple priests to help them -- in return for payment or "offering" to the Temple coffers = profit for those priests, now being threatened by a much superior performer with whom the Mosaic Law practitioners could not compete.

And it's easily explained why this was such a very singular case, because there was virtually no one else, maybe none at all, who had such power to heal, so that as the reputation of Jesus spreads, there'd be a greater deflection of worshipers away from the priests, who really had no power to heal but only religious authorization to perform priestly rituals and make promises which did not come true -- and yet just the promises did attract many devotees who would even pay for the rituals per se and the empty promises.

Maybe Pilate didn't find the evidence particularly strong and hesitated.
Plus also he suspected the accusers of envy: Mark 15:10: "For he [Pilate] perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priests had delivered him up." However, his doubt was likely very brief, because it didn't matter to him if the accused was really innocent. All that mattered was the possibility, however small, of a threat to Rome -- and just the suggestion of this was enough.

In this case we're told there was significant hesitation by Pilate, which indicates that the Jesus case was different than others, maybe catching Pilate off guard. But there was no reason for him to reject the charges and seriously defend Jesus against injustice. Maybe he flinched for a second, caught off guard by this case, and asked what Jesus had done. So for a brief moment those sympathetic to Jesus possibly hoped Pilate would resist the accusers, or later, upon hearing the story they wondered if he could have decided differently and ruled against the accusers. But that's not realistic -- the norm was to grant the death penalty sentence, which he quickly did, after only a moment's hesitation. That's the most likely, from what the accounts say. His hesitation was a fact, but this could easily get exaggerated in the later retelling the story.

Since all the accounts indicate this, it's reasonable to believe it, plus it fits with the general facts and is not contradicted by any evidence. When all the sources agree and give facts which fit all the evidence known, without being contradicted by anything, that's when the unbiased unprejudiced historian should conclude it's probably true. That the writers later could exaggerate Pilate's behavior, saying he defended Jesus heroically, shouldn't surprise us, once it's clear that Pilate hesitated at first, which itself was not a fiction invented by them.


What made Jesus "important"?
Jesus was also important enough to warrant paying a bounty for turning Him in.
"important"?

All the more indication that he must have performed the healing miracle acts. Because there is nothing else he did that could make him so important. Without his miracle power as the explanation, there's no way to account for why he had any importance which made it necessary to arrest him and put him away.

How was Jesus more "important" than anyone else? What did he do that made him "important"? more "important" than James the Just or many other revered teachers and rabbis and prophets? more "important" than the militant rebel Barabbas who committed murder?

Without the miracle acts, there's no way to show that he was any more important than the many dozens (hundreds) of Apocalyptic preachers and "messiahs" and dissidents saying the same things he's quoted as saying. Others who had more status than Jesus had, and more disciples, larger audiences, wider reputation at that time. How was the Jesus of 30 AD "important" -- if he did not really do the miracle acts all the accounts say he did?

But also, it might not have been a "bounty" but a trade that was done, i.e., to release Barabbas in return for Jesus who was more important and thus worth making a sacrifice for. Those priests had to want Barabbas dead, for his crime against them. To give him up, they had to get a significant concession in return.



Sum-up bottom line:
Jesus was condemned not because he was a threat to Rome, but because he offended certain Jewish factions, who seriously wanted Jesus dead, and who therefore arrested him and persuaded Pilate to do the deed.
 
There is a proposal for defining a division of geological time that is related to human activities:  Anthropocene and Scientists Search For The Anthropocene : NPR and What Is the Anthropocene and Are We in It? | Science| Smithsonian Magazine and What is the Anthropocene and why does it matter? | Natural History Museum

There is a lot of controversy over which geological marker to use, and what would count as the beginning of such a division of geological time.

 Geologic time scale
  • Phanerozoic Eon -- 538.8 Mya -- trace fossil Treptichnus pedum -- likely worm burrows
  • Cenozoic Era -- 66.0 Mya -- K-Pg mass-extinction iridium spike -- likely from an asteroid impact
  • Quaternary Period -- 2.56 Mya -- beginning of the geologically recent ice ages
  • Holocene Epoch -- 11.7 kya -- end of the Younger Dryas cold period
  • Meghalayan Age -- 4.2 kya -- beginning of 200-year drought

Which of them will the Anthropocene be comparable to? From what I've seen so far, the Holocene, though I think that the Meghalayan might be a better choice if one was to mark out such a division of geological time.

I thought of alternatives related to radiation and to CO2 (smoke). So I went to wiktionary.org and I considered what might be good Latin-derived or Greek-derived terms.

Ray-smoke:
(Latin) Radiofumic
(Greek) Actinocapnic
 
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