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Historical Jesus

1. The supernatural Jesus existed because there are witnesses in the gospels, and the gospels are verbatim journalistic reporting

2. A lot of people believe the gospels are true, therefore they are true.

There is an historical Trump. 2000 years from now in another couture and langue with scant historical records somebody might say a lot of people think his election was stolen, so it must be true. 2000 years from now Christians might say he was sent by god to save them.

And so on and so forth.
 
Something that really DOES make Jesus unique is the huge trove of ancient papyri that have turned up with Gospel fragments. Whether he "worked wonders" or not, the cult of the Nazarene spread like wildfire. THAT fact is where we should focus attention if we bother to refute the gibberish that Jesus of Nazareth was a "nobody." But even the oldest of these fragments date to at least a century after the crucifixion. Papyrus was expensive, and is very fragile.
If people today could freely write their own stories of Superman we'd know a lot more about Superman's life, maybe as much as we know about Santa or Frosty the snowman or Charlie Brown or Snoopy or...
 
Apollonius of Tyana and other alleged miracle workers
What's the evidence?

"Apollonius appears to have been a wandering ... wonderworker of a type common to the eastern part of the early empire."

Treating "wonderworker" and "miracle worker" as synonyms -- is that OK? -- we learn two things from this sentence: (1) A professional historian tells us that Apollonius was a miracle worker, . . .
No. This description of Apollonius does not tell us that he actually worked wonders, or that he was an actual wonderworker. This kind of description means that the character was a REPUTED wonder-worker, and the author puts this label on him not to say that the character really did work wonders, but only that he had this reputation.

But also, he says Apollonius APPEARS to have been a wonderworker. Not that he really was. The author is not really sure what Apollonius was. Except that we can read the same source he did, i.e., the Philostratus biography, and in that account there are a few "wonders" attributed to Apollonius. And that's the best we can conclude: an account at least 120 years later attributes a half dozen miracle acts to Apollonius. Of these miracles, the most impressive one turns out to be a raising-the-dead story lifted out from the Gospel of Luke, probably by the author Philostratus. We also see that among the "miracles" in the biography, at least 2 of them are bizarre acts, including one in which an old beggar is murdered by Apollonius, or by his disciples who are ordered by him to stone the old man to death. And when they obey and kill him, his body changes into that of a hound which is foaming at the mouth.

So this is what we learn when we investigate the alleged miracles of Apollonius. With miracle stories there are always some questions, or doubts. If we totally investigate all of them, including those of Jesus, there will be unanswered questions.

So, on a scale of 0-100 (100 = totally believable, makes total sense; and 0 = tall tales, fabrications from a sick mind, fiction only), the miracles of Jesus -- attested to in 4 (5) sources 20-70 years from when the events happened -- rank about 90-95, while the miracles of Apollonius of Tyana rank about 10-15.

Whatever the exact score you arrive at, anyone reasonable has to agree that the 3rd century Philostratus stories are greatly lacking in credibility, whereas the Jesus miracle acts are supported by good evidence which meets the normal standards for reporting events of ancient history, including that they have the extra attestation needed in the case of miracle claims or anything very unusual.

. . . and (2) that such people were common in the eastern part of the early empire."
No more common than in other places and at other times. Miracle claims do exist, but there is very little evidence that such claims were widely believed. Just that some crusader claimed to have such power doesn't mean that he had many followers/believers. The evidence usually is that the vast majority of the population dismissed such claims as false, and dismissed as charlatans those claiming to possess such power.

The question is NOT whether Apollonius or Rabbi Hanina/Chanina ben Dosa really performed supernatural miracles. They didn't -- and . . .
No, suppressing the question and rebuking someone for asking the question is not the right response. ALL questions are legitimate, and your proper response is not to dogmatically dictate what is the answer without any explanation or facts or reasons or evidence --- No, the proper response is to accept the question -- ANY question -- as deserving an answer based on the particular evidence in that case. Regardless of your own bias or prejudice -- you still have to give the reasons in each case, for each question, and demonstrate how your belief about it is correct and the contrary belief is wrong. You can't just dictate your prejudice as being the Absolute Truth which cannot be questioned. You have to give proper respect to every question -- rather than dictating "that's not the question" -- and then explain your answer rather than just dictating it on your own authority as if you're an automatic infallible source which cannot be questioned.

. . . NOT whether Apollonius or Rabbi Hanina/Chanina ben Dosa really performed supernatural miracles. They didn't -- and . . .
I.e., the evidence is that they did not. Or, there is virtually no evidence that they performed miracles.

They didn't -- and neither did Jesus of Nazareth.
The evidence is that Jesus did perform such acts. There is multiple attestation in sources near to the time. This is how we know what events did or did not happen, in ancient history.

The question is whether "acceptable" contemporaneous or nearly contemporaneous documents allege such miracles. Francis tells us "without fear of contamination" that Apollonius was "a wandering ... wonderworker."
Francis, a modern author, is not a legitimate source. There's only one source, Philostratus, which every modern author relies on. Only one source 120 years later is not a legitimate source to rely on for claims of a miracle event.

It's difficult to separate fact from fiction, in ALL the ancient history writings. But still we have the writings and we draw some conclusions from them, and the accepted "ancient history" is based on drawing these conclusions, this guesswork. It's this same process of guesswork from which we can conclude that Jesus did miracle acts and Apollonius of Tyana did not.

We'd always like to have more documents than we have, more archaeological findings, more evidence to go on, like the more evidence we have for modern history. But even with the limited evidence we do have, just as for other ancient history facts, we can conclude that the miracle acts of Jesus are historical, factual, real events from the past, whereas virtually all the other reported miracles in the ancient world are fiction, for lack of evidence.
 
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Lumpy,always good good to see you.

If you do no mind my asking do you have a day job?
 
Dishonesty among Scholars
about the Historical Jesus


Here is another pundit (albeit legitimate scholar, mostly reliable) who has the need to lie about miracle-worker legends in antiquity, claiming that there were many other reported miracle-workers similar and prior to Jesus, who therefore was not unique. What's dishonest is his failure to note that there is no legitimate historical evidence for any of the pre-Jesus miracle-worker examples he gives. All the sources for these are post-Jesus and are dated centuries later than when the alleged miracle-workers did their deeds. There is no indication of Jewish miracle-workers prior to Jesus, other than the ancient Moses and Elijah/Elisha legends.

And there was virtually no interest in any miracle-worker claims among Jews in the centuries leading up to Jesus in 30 AD. In that period Jews were oblivious to the ancient Elijah/Elisha miracle tradition. There is a huge volume of non-canonical Jewish literature, e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls, which totally ignores miracle-workers. Elijah is ignored by 1st-century Jews -- e.g. Philo the Alexandrian mentions a story about him but doesn't name Elijah, and the reference totally ignores anything miraculous about Elijah. Philo and other Jews of the early 1st century had a disdain for miracle-worker stories.

It's only after Jesus, or after 50 AD, that any Jews notice Elijah, and these were the early Christian Jews comparing Jesus to Elijah. Elijah would have been totally forgotten by Jews except for the appearance of Jesus in history, as a miracle-worker having some resemblance to Elijah.

I'll select some quotes from this video -- click the link for the entire presentation.


Jewish Galilean Miracle Workers in the Life & Times of Jesus -
The Mages of the Rabbinical World
YouTube Channel Esoterica

Part of Jesus of Nazareth's claim to fame are the many miracles associated with him, from turning water to wine, resurrecting the dead, including himself, . . . healing the sick and exorcising demons. These, among other supernatural feats, are taken to be evidence of Jesus' unique status. . . . Though several other Galilean miracle-workers are known to us, both from Jewish history and lore. . . .

. . . because of the glare cast by Jesus and early Christianity, it’s easy to forget that such miracle-workers abounded in the ancient world generally and in the Jewish context more specifically.
This is a falsehood. By comparison to other historical periods, the period of about 800 BC up to the time of Jesus is a period almost totally devoid of miracle-workers and miracle stories. Rather, it's after about 100 AD when miracle stories abound and increase. This later period and into the Middle Ages vastly surpasses classical antiquity in the volume of miracle stories, as even the modern time does. By comparison the classical Greek/Roman age and pre-Christian Judaism show a conspicuous disdain for the miraculous and for miracle-workers, especially for anything other than very ancient legends from 1000+ years earlier (e.g. ancient legends like Zeus, Apollo, Hercules, Asclepius, etc.). I.e., any alleged miracle-workers of recent time were scoffed at, not followed by anyone, and disbelieved as charlatans.

Several other specifically Galilean miracle-workers are known to us from both Jewish history and lore. In fact, they seem to have constituted a unique class of men capable of such miraculous feats, known as 'anshe ma’aseh' or “men of deeds.” In fact, Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries very likely would have understood him in something like this category.
Note the phrase "would have understood him" = they didn't really understand him that way at all, because there was no such "category" of 'anshe ma'aseh' miracle-workers in that time, because this is much later Jewish terminology, from the Talmud period, not the 1st century AD. This "men of deeds" language did not exist until after the time of Jesus, which inspired a renewed interest in Elijah and miracle-workers.

In collaboration with ‪@ReligionForBreakfast‬ I explore a few of these Galilean miracle-workers or anshe ma’aseh who lived just before and after the lifetime of Jesus of Nazareth. From Honi the circle-maker who could compel G-d to make it rain, . . .
The earliest source for Honi the Circle-Drawer is Josephus, writing 150 years later than the reported miracle-worker. The only reported miracle is that he once caused it to rain. After this one brief reference in Josephus, about 90 AD, there developed further legends which appear in the Talmud centuries later. This is not legitimate evidence for a miracle event of 150 BC. We need multiple sources near to the time of the alleged event. We know that miracle tales can easily evolve in the culture over many generations and centuries of story-telling. In many cases the character in question may have attracted attention in his time, and then stories began to develop as he was remembered, but it always required centuries for miracle tales to be added to the legend.

The only exception to this pattern is the case of a powerful military hero, like Alexander the Great, to whom a miracle rumor might emerge even during his lifetime -- very rare, only in the case of a widely popular hero worshiped by millions of admirers during his lifetime. Other examples of this are Julius Caesar and Emperors Caesar Augustus and Vespasian, for whom there are a few miracle claims. They acquired this mythic hero status only because they were worshiped as gods by millions of devoted fanatics, even before their death. Obviously nothing like this can explain the reported Jesus miracle acts.

. . . to Hanina ben Dosa’s extreme piety accidentally inducing miracles and who forestalled the power of the Queen of Demons to Shimon bar Yochai, so pious that even the key commandments of the Torah didn’t apply to him and whose very gaze could incinerate those before him and from whom the secrets of the Kabbalah are said to flow, even an errant resurrection of the dead following fisticuffs at a Purim party.
These are ridiculous examples, silly tales which required centuries to evolve, based only on much later legends in the Talmud and even later Jewish sources, after many centuries. This is not serious history. It is dishonest to give an example like this, pretending that it has anything to do with actual history, based on legitimate evidence, such as we have in the case of the Jesus miracle-worker of 30 AD.

Our scholar here tries to give the impression that these legendary Jewish miracle-workers are part of a tradition which preceded Jesus, as part of a culture or tradition of miracle legends, to which then Jesus was added later, as though these earlier figures established the trend of legends earlier, and then this "context" of legends explains how Jesus became mythologized into another miracle-worker similar to them -- a total distortion. He was EARLIER, while they were later legends inspired by the Galilean Jesus of 30 AD.

Why does a scholar who knows better promote this totally false picture of the miracle legends? Such legends did not exist prior to Jesus, unless you go way back centuries to Elijah/Elisha, 900 years earlier, where there is an ancient legend of this kind, and then 500 years back to Moses.

He tells us that these were "Galilean miracle-workers or anshe ma’aseh who lived just before and after the lifetime of Jesus of Nazareth" as though the tradition predates Jesus. He implies there were "multiple accounts" of such miracle-workers prior to Jesus. But this is dishonest because the stories are all post-Jesus, as there is no source earlier than Josephus, and the vast majority of it is many centuries later. All this tradition of Galilean miracle-workers was likely inspired by the earlier Jesus miracle legend of 30 AD (or about 50-90 AD), which was earlier. We have no evidence of any other such miracle tradition prior to the latter 1st century AD.

bottom line: There was no "context" or culture of miracle-worker legends prior to Jesus in 30 AD. Rather, he pops into history suddenly, unexpectedly out of nowhere, performing miracle acts for which there is no precedent in the ancient culture.
 
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Wow! Talk about selective reading!

I'm not going to fight the paywall, or attempt to pursue what seems to be another complex rabbit-hole of research but in the first page I quoted, Francis writes "So little remains of sources prior to VA". He does NOT write that there is ZERO information before VA, but there is LITTLE. His task as a professional historian is to glean what he can from minimal fragments.

Scholars who want to understand Jesus of Nazareth are in a similar situation. The only significant source for Jesus prior to the Gospels (written at least 4 decades after his death) is the writings of Paul. Scholars can read Paul to better guess which parts of the Gospels are fact, and which fiction.

And indeed from Paul we learn
(1) that there was apparently no physical Resurrection. Paul treats the "Resurrection" and Jesus' Ascension into Heaven as one and the same event.
(2) that if Paul was aware of any SPECIFIC wonder that the living Jesus had performed, he never wrote it down. Why not? (Paul's own "miracles" were described in Acts and NOT in Paul's own writing.)
 
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