response to thingsweneverdid, Aug 2, #812
(continued from previous Wall of Text)
The nonexistent "miracle-loving age" of Jesus
As already mentioned, Asclepius was also known for miraculous healings.
I.e., the priests at the temples were reported to do divine healings in the name of the ancient healing deity, as is common with religious cults in all periods of history.
Of all the ancient legends and miracle myths, those of Asclepius are suggested as the ones most resembling the healings of Jesus. If Asclepius really lived, it was probably around 1500 BC, perhaps getting a reputation as a healer, and legends evolved over the centuries.
But there's no documentation of Asclepius the actual ancient person who might have had some healing skill, such as we have documentation of the Jesus healings, in writings of the time. No written record of the historical Asclepius, such as we have a written record of the historical Jesus.
All legends about him, the actual historical Asclepius, are found in much later writings which passed on the myths which evolved. But the reported miracles for which there is some evidence are those which happened at the later shrines or temples or statues of Asclepius, which were performed by the Asclepius priests, at the temples, the main one being at Epidaurus in Greece. These are mostly from 400-300 BC. There are no
miracle healings of Asclepius reported, among the inscriptions, from about 300 BC (or 250 BC) to about 100 AD, at which time there was a revival of the ancient cult and miracle claims.
The following "miracle" (maybe it qualifies to be called that) is probably from the very early period, 4th or 3rd century BC, or if not that, then probably it's among the ones appearing after 100 AD. There is no way to determine where this is to be found, as the author, Delbert Burkett, does not give proper documentation to locate it. The proper reference for all the Asclepius inscriptions is in Emma J. Edelstein and Ludwig Edelstein,
Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies.
Maybe the quote is accurate, though there's no way to check it without a reference other than Burkett's "W3" which doesn't locate it in the Edelstein collection.
An introduction to the New Testament and the origins of Christianity (Cambridge University Press, 2002), Delbert Burkett:
Here's the "miracle" supposed as comparable to the Jesus healing miracles:
W3: "A man with all the fingers of his hand crippled except one came to the god as a supplicant. When he saw the tablets in the temple, he doubted the healings and sneered at the inscriptions. While he slept, he dreamed that he was divining with bones under the temple. As he was about to cast the bones, the god appeared, seized his hand, and stretched out the fingers. He seemed to bend the hand to stretch out the fingers one by one. When he had straightened all of them, the god asked him if he still doubted the inscriptions on the tablets in the temple. “No,” he said. Asclepius replied, “Since before you did not believe things that are not incredible, from now on your name will be ‘Skeptic.’ ” When it was day, he came out healed."
One possibility is that some kind of therapy was performed on him as he slept. The Asclepius cult did practice actual cures which were partly legitimate or effective. Some of these were done when the patient slept. Depending on what the affliction was, maybe it was curable, or at least could be helped by some form of therapy, which the Asclepius priest performed.
Also it's questionable if this patient was really crippled -- what does it mean that the fingers were "crippled"? It's not so unusual for some fingers to have difficulty moving, bending, or unbending, at some periods, and then to function correctly at other times. So it's not a clear case of someone with a physical affliction, comparable to the paralytic or the lepers or blind men healed by Jesus.
Nevertheless, the report intends to say he was truly afflicted physically. Maybe it's to be accepted as a "miracle" if it did happen, a non-medical healing. But there's much extra doubt here, as all these inscriptions were from patients who worshiped Asclepius, and from the cult priests.
All the "miracle" cures are found in the inscriptions at the temples, mostly the Epidaurus temple, and yet the vast majority of these inscriptions are not "miracle" cures at all, but normal recoveries, due in most cases to just natural recovery which would have happened anyway, but also due to some therapy or treatments which were successful in some cases. So only a small minority are in the "miracle" category, and a few are bizarre.
The question when the inscription is dated is important. If it's before 300 BC, then it's outside the period of the "Age" in which Jesus appears in history. The absence of miracles in the culture refers to the absence during the "Age" of Jesus which is referred to as the "his miracle-loving age" -- which has to be the 1st century AD, when he lived, and the centuries leading up to it. So this "age" is 100 BC to 100 AD, or maybe 200 BC to 100 AD, or maybe even 300 BC to 100 AD.
No one defined "his miracle-loving age," but it cannot simply be all of ancient history. Even if it meant all history prior to 100 AD, the fact is that the age AFTER that (Dark Ages and later) is far more miracle-loving than the age of Jesus before, even more miracle-loving than all of ancient history. The truth is that miracle fascination is far greater AFTER 100 AD than before. So how can the time of Jesus be called "his miracle-loving age"? compared to what?
There have been vastly more numerous miracle legends AFTER the 1st century than before. And also much more in the time before 300 BC and on earlier.
And it's clear that the miracle fascination was far greater in that earlier period than it was in the 1st century when Jesus lived. As you go farther back you find far more miracle legends than in the 1st century, and period leading to it. There's a virtual total absence of miracle stories in the 1st century, BC or AD. So 100 BC to 100 AD has virtually no miracle stories in the literature, other than mention of the ancient deities and heroes, in the epic poems.
The above Asclepius inscription almost certainly dates from either the earlier period, before 200-300 BC, or after the later period beginning 100 AD, when the Asclepius cult revived.
When you try to prove that Jesus was part of an already-existing "miracle age," and cite miracles appearing during the "age" of Jesus, so that they lead up to him, showing that he is part of a "miracle-loving" culture of the time, you need to give us the evidence, the date, the citation, the ancient quote.
It's not good enough to cite a modern author only, like Burkett, giving his own theories. For the facts, you have to cite the ancient sources, the ancient text, including the date. Even though it's OK to rely on a modern author, you also have to give the ancient quote, including the date. This Asclepius healing story, even if we include it as a "miracle" claim, requires the date, in order to determine if it's part of a "miracle-loving" culture in which Jesus appears.
It's true that as you go back to 500 BC and earlier there are more miracle legends appearing. But these are not part of any "miracle-loving age" of the time of Jesus. The fact is that the time of Jesus was NOT a "miracle-loving age," as all the evidence is that the culture of miracle legends came much earlier, long before the "age" of Jesus, and that it was dying down, and there was virtually no miracle culture to be found near the time of Jesus, from about 200 BC to 100 AD, or even 300 BC to 100 AD.
And the reported Asclepius miracles, in the inscriptions, date from BEFORE 300 BC. All the later inscriptions are not "miracle" stories. In fact, the vast majority of the Asclepius inscriptions are not about miracles at all. They are normal healing stories, of people recovering from an illness, and the god Asclepius is given credit for bringing the recovery.
Also there are normal treatments described, therapies, and also psychological treatment of the patients, according to some legitimate therapy practice. There were some good dieting and exercise prescriptions, along with several prescriptions for odd herbal remedies, ointments, etc., and many superstitious rituals, and maybe also some treatments which were more harm than good, although the practitioners at the Asclepius temples were pretty smart about judging between what was healthy and what was not.
The ancient Asclepius cult even to this day is given credit as an ancient medical institution or establishment which did some good in its prescriptions, mixed in with the superstitions or primitive practices.
For the above Burkett quote to be legitimate, we must have the date of the quote. The miracle claims had died down by the time of Jesus, and this one probably falls outside the "age" of Jesus in one of the 2 periods (the early or the late) when the Asclepius inscriptions reported miracle cures. They did not report miracle cures in the period of 300 BC to 100 AD.
Those who pretend that there were many other reported miracle-workers during the period of Jesus tend to be very sloppy in their facts and quotes and documentation, as we see in this example. When the facts are looked at, in detail, there is no other evidence of miracle claims or miracle-workers throughout this period. No real evidence is provided, showing such reports in any of the literature of the period leading to the time of Jesus and the NT writings.
A few 1st-century charlatans are mentioned in Josephus, but all discredited -- no indication anyone took them seriously, no report that they actually performed the miracles they promised.
What we need are the quotes making the miracle claims crediting miracle acts to this or that prophet or teacher etc., from the ancient sources, with the dating of them included. I.e., proper documentation in the written record of the time, such as we have for the Jesus miracle acts.
and 
and rofl's lol's, etc., because you have nothing thoughtful to offer.
