Honest talk about the cost of being ugly

[DrZoidberg]

Is DrZ one of those who hates his job, hates his coworkers, and hates the world?

Why do you ask that? I don't understand where the comment comes from

 

[DrZoidberg]

The most interesting thing about this thread is the reactions it has made. I think only Harry Bosch and Loren Pechtel put the effort in to try to understand what Mike Israetel was saying. The rest got defensive and started attacking me for saying things I never said or even implied. I still don't really understand what exactly Southernhybrid thought I was saying. But it sure missed the mark by a mile. Bilby felt the need to defend Marilyn Monroe as if anyone has ever claimed she's ugly.

When post modernists philosohers talk about something they say that they are "problematising it" by breaking down a phenomena in parts and discussing it, usually through a feminist lens. FYI this is what Mike Israetel is doing in the video. The only difference is that he's not using woke words. If you'd replace the words to woke aproved phrases and words this video would pass as a feminist critique of the modern "aestetic revolution".

Those who thought Israetel was arguing for the superiority of being hot somehow, (I'm still don't quite understand the reactions) I'm guessing care more about presentation than substance. Which is the definition of being superficial.

I'm for honest discussions. Certainly on a free thought forum. Especially when it comes to things that are sensitive. That's usually where we get our biggest cultural blind spots and perpetuated collective delusions. The reactions in this thread proves that the topic is interesting to discuss.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

When women have that luxury, (as we all do in the west

At times you claim to be a leftist, but no leftist or indeed anyone aware of inequality of opportunity in societies would say this.

There's so much black and white fallacy all over this

Nobody in the west is forced into a career they don't want just to survive. They might be forced into taking jobs they don't want. But not a career. Even the poorest in the west has options. In the west we can flounce around without a job for years. Good luck doing that in India.

That doesn't mean everyone in the west has equal opportunities. I never said that. What I did say is that people in the west have more opportunities than people in India. I'd say that's an opinion anyone on any side of the political spectrum can get behind.

Anyway... you were a dishonest debater misrepresenting what I said. Don't do it again.

It is extreme simplification and stereotyping to classify one large, diverse group of people as "the West" and another large, diverse group as "India". Indian people as a whole also have many opportunities. The way you talk about India is very derisive.
As for misrepresenting what you say, considering the contradictory things that you say in many threads it is hard to know what you are saying.

 

[DrZoidberg]

When women have that luxury, (as we all do in the west

At times you claim to be a leftist, but no leftist or indeed anyone aware of inequality of opportunity in societies would say this.

There's so much black and white fallacy all over this

Nobody in the west is forced into a career they don't want just to survive. They might be forced into taking jobs they don't want. But not a career. Even the poorest in the west has options. In the west we can flounce around without a job for years. Good luck doing that in India.

That doesn't mean everyone in the west has equal opportunities. I never said that. What I did say is that people in the west have more opportunities than people in India. I'd say that's an opinion anyone on any side of the political spectrum can get behind.

Anyway... you were a dishonest debater misrepresenting what I said. Don't do it again.

It is extreme simplification and stereotyping to classify one large, diverse group of people as "the West" and another large, diverse group as "India". Indian people as a whole also have many opportunities. The way you talk about India is very derisive.

WTF are you talking about? Econometrics is a real thing. We can measure this stuff. Do you think economists just pull numbers out of their ass?

And no... Indian laws apply to all India. We can know with 100% certainty exactly what government support every Indian is eligable for. It's not a lot. Add to that corruption... something else we can measure. And we can with great certainty generalise about all Indians and know for a fact, they need to be more personally fiscally responsible than people in the west, or they're fucked.

Western economies are somewhat different. But they all have plenty of socialist style policies, welfare and such, that kick in to help those at the bottom of the social ladder. They all have that in common. These legal differences have had large and measurable social impacts, which sets them apart from developing countries.

These countries laws allows us to make accurate generalisations. This should not be controversial.

The fact that some Indians have as many opportunities as someone in the west doesn't make India a haven of social equality.

You're just flat out wrong.

As for misrepresenting what you say, considering the contradictory things that you say in many threads it is hard to know what you are saying.

Ok, I'll bite. Come with an example of something contradictory I've said? I'm going to go out on a limb that it's something taken out of context, or just misunderstood, and that isn't really contradictory.

 

[steve_bank]

Whatever floats your boat Z.

Regardless of how you frame it. it does not change how the physics, biology, and genetics of us humans work

How you spin it to natch your personal agenda is up to you. A benefit of liberal western democracies,. In China interpretation of science has to fit the CCP agenda.

Physiology and biology of men and women are different. That does not mean either are inferior to the other. It does not mean women are not as mentally capable as men. It does mean a woman is not likely to be an NFL running back.

Your view has been carried ti a ridiculous extreme of political correctness. In Hollywood the term actress has been dropped, and both men and women use the make term actor. The word actress was deemed to infer inferiorityr to male.

The ongoing controversy of trans women competing in women's sports. Does being biologically male give a trans woman an unfair advantage competing with women?I'd say say yes it can.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Whatever floats your boat Z.

Regardless of how you frame it. it does not change how the physics, biology, and genetics of us humans work

How you spin it to natch your personal agenda is up to you. A benefit of liberal western democracies,. In China interpretation of science has to fit the CCP agenda.

Physiology and biology of men and women are different. That does not mean either are inferior to the other. It does not mean women are not as mentally capable as men. It does mean a woman is not likely to be an NFL running back.

We seem to have the exact same opions on gender. There's nothing in anything I've said that warrants your bizarre defence of the obvious..

Your view has been carried ti a ridiculous extreme of political correctness.

I am pretty sure we have the same views on gender and we seem to have the same views on activists for woke queer transrights.

In Hollywood the term actress has been dropped, and both men and women use the make term actor. The word actress was deemed to infer inferiorityr to male.

The ongoing controversy of trans women competing in women's sports. Does being biologically male give a trans woman an unfair advantage competing with women?I'd say say yes it can.

Again... we seem to have the exact same opinions on this

 

[southernhybrid]

Apparently, somebody needs an education regarding the differences between male and female brains. Anyone who is curious about our brains would know about these differences, but I will at least provide some information for those who are ignorant regarding this topic.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

There is a lot more info in the link, and there are multiple sources, that one can easily find, that provide similar information. Male and female brains our different. That's a fact. Plus there's that hormonal thing that also influences us.

How our brains differ​

The neuroscience literature shows that the human brain is a sex-typed organ with distinct anatomical differences in neural structures and accompanying physiological differences in function, says UC-Irvine professor of neurobiology and behavior Larry Cahill, PhD. Cahill edited the 70-article January/February 2017 issue of the Journal of Neuroscience Research — the first-ever issue of any neuroscience journal devoted entirely to the influence of sex differences on nervous-system function.

Brain-imaging studies indicate that these differences extend well beyond the strictly reproductive domain, Cahill says. Adjusted for total brain size (men’s are bigger), a woman’s hippocampus, critical to learning and memorization, is larger than a man’s and works differently. Conversely, a man’s amygdala, associated with the experiencing of emotions and the recollection of such experiences, is bigger than a woman’s. It, too, works differently, as Cahill’s research has demonstrated.

In 2000, Cahill scanned the brains of men and women viewing either highly aversive films or emotionally neutral ones. The aversive films were expected to trip off strong negative emotions and concomitant imprinting in the amygdala, an almond-shaped structure found in each brain hemisphere. Activity in the amygdala during the viewing experience, as expected, predicted subjects’ later ability to recall the viewed clips. But in women, this relationship was observed only in the left amygdala. In men, it was only in the right amygdala. Cahill and others have since confirmed these results.

Discoveries like this one should ring researchers’ alarm buzzers. Women, it’s known, retain stronger, more vivid memories of emotional events than men do. They recall emotional memories more quickly, and the ones they recall are richer and more intense. If, as is likely, the amygdala figures into depression or anxiety, any failure to separately analyze men’s and women’s brains to understand their different susceptibilities to either syndrome would be as self-defeating as not knowing left from right.

The two hemispheres of a woman’s brain talk to each other more than a man’s do. In a 2014 study, University of Pennsylvania researchers imaged the brains of 428 male and 521 female youths — an uncharacteristically huge sample — and found that the females’ brains consistently showed more strongly coordinated activity between hemispheres, while the males’ brain activity was more tightly coordinated within local brain regions. This finding, a confirmation of results in smaller studies published earlier, tracks closely with others’ observations that the corpus callosum-— the white-matter cable that crosses and connects the hemispheres — is bigger in women than in men and that women’s brains tend to be more bilaterally symmetrical than men’s.

Many of these cognitive differences appear quite early in life. ‘You see sex differences in spatial-visualization ability in 2- and 3-month-old infants.’

 

[DrZoidberg]

Apparently, somebody needs an education regarding the differences between male and female brains. Anyone who is curious about our brains would know about these differences, but I will at least provide some information for those who are ignorant regarding this topic.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

There is a lot more info in the link, and there are multiple sources, that one can easily find, that provide similar information. Male and female brains our different. That's a fact. Plus there's that hormonal thing that also influences us.

I'm just curious. Who in this thread do you think would disagree with this? The few queer theory pomo fans we have on the forum haven't been active in this thread. I have the same views as you. Which should obvious from my posts.

 

[southernhybrid]

Apparently, somebody needs an education regarding the differences between male and female brains. Anyone who is curious about our brains would know about these differences, but I will at least provide some information for those who are ignorant regarding this topic.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

There is a lot more info in the link, and there are multiple sources, that one can easily find, that provide similar information. Male and female brains our different. That's a fact. Plus there's that hormonal thing that also influences us.

I'm just curious. Who in this thread do you think would disagree with this? The few queer theory pomo fans we have on the forum haven't been active in this thread. I have the same views as you. Which should obvious from my posts.

You! The following line is a direct quote from one of your previous posts.

The brain in all its intricate shapes... the same. Identical

You are the one that claimed that male and female brains are identical, when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Jarhyn]

Apparently, somebody needs an education regarding the differences between male and female brains. Anyone who is curious about our brains would know about these differences, but I will at least provide some information for those who are ignorant regarding this topic.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

There is a lot more info in the link, and there are multiple sources, that one can easily find, that provide similar information. Male and female brains our different. That's a fact. Plus there's that hormonal thing that also influences us.

I'm just curious. Who in this thread do you think would disagree with this? The few queer theory pomo fans we have on the forum haven't been active in this thread. I have the same views as you. Which should obvious from my posts.

You! The following line is a direct quote from one of your previous posts.

The brain in all its intricate shapes... the same. Identical

You are the one that claimed that male and female brains are identical, when noting could be further from the truth.

I mean, it's not like we're arguing with particularly intelligent people.

The worst part is that it always comes down to this kind of bullshit, and it exposed the basic assumption that being 'gender' is a meme rather than a physiological feature, for all of ALSO has memetic and social components that the physiological parts kind of "throw" us at via the structural differences -- via the differences in the way we process things.

As a result, things like the differences in the Amygdala, for example, can gravitate is towards having particular relationships with our emotional states, and this in turn determines how we handle things like fear and conflict, and that in turn informs us whether we identify as "brave" or "pragmatic" or whatever, which pushes us to identify more with one population than another and then suddenly we "induct" into whichever is the more condicive social structure... And this is just ONE such trigger.

Really, it's more a constellation of how we evaluate a number of such "inductive" triggers, and the fact that some structures may be mixed together to draw us in what maybe conflicting ways.

Other times, rather than inducting onto a social group that we find ergonomic, however, we find out that there's not really an ergonomic match, and we just form our own socialization and selections of such behaviors... Only to find later that there's a whole community of like-minded people, and what may actually correspond to as a whole and distinct gender all its own and not typified by "male" or "female", "man" or "woman.

The brain is simply more versatile on differentiation than the gonads, and we know this for a fucking fact.

 

[steve_bank]

Apparently, somebody needs an education regarding the differences between male and female brains. Anyone who is curious about our brains would know about these differences, but I will at least provide some information for those who are ignorant regarding this topic.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

There is a lot more info in the link, and there are multiple sources, that one can easily find, that provide similar information. Male and female brains our different. That's a fact. Plus there's that hormonal thing that also influences us.

I'm just curious. Who in this thread do you think would disagree with this? The few queer theory pomo fans we have on the forum haven't been active in this thread. I have the same views as you. Which should obvious from my posts.

Who in hits thread said men and women are the same?

Wasn't me. Was it you Pood? Who said it?

Any Idea who said it DrZ?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Apparently, somebody needs an education regarding the differences between male and female brains. Anyone who is curious about our brains would know about these differences, but I will at least provide some information for those who are ignorant regarding this topic.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

There is a lot more info in the link, and there are multiple sources, that one can easily find, that provide similar information. Male and female brains our different. That's a fact. Plus there's that hormonal thing that also influences us.

I'm just curious. Who in this thread do you think would disagree with this? The few queer theory pomo fans we have on the forum haven't been active in this thread. I have the same views as you. Which should obvious from my posts.

Who in hits thread said men and women are the same?

Wasn't me. Was it you Pood? Who said it?

Any Idea who said it DrZ?

Nobody said it. You just hallucinated that I said it. I even quoted the quote you misunderstood, and explained your mistake, repeatedly.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here’s a weird thing about people. Most of us are not 9’s or 10’s or even 1’s or 2’s — for those of us who adhere to these juvenile, nonsensical indices. Most of us are somewhere in the middle, roughly,

Yet people get together and make more people, and even love each into old age when they look wrinkled and often grotesque.

Lincoln famously said, “The good lord must have loved the common-LOOKING people, since he made so many of them.” The “looking” part is commonly omitted from the “common” quote.

During one of his 1858 debates with Steven Douglas, Lincoln, whom Douglas had accused of being two-faced, responded with his customary wit: “If I had another face, do you think I’d be wearing this one?”

I think what you and Southern Hybrid are confused about is stuff you are projecting onto what he's saying.

He's not talking about human worth. He's not saying that we should care about looks. He's acknowleging that its a thing and that it affects us. Pretending that it doesn't isn't helping. Its like denying racism exists because we don't like racism. It doesn't help.

FYI, women are rarely attracted to bodybuilders.

Indeed, one thing women hate are muscles. That is why women only try to pick guys up at ComicCons.

I think the question to ask, assuming "women are rarely attracted to bodybuilders" is accurate, is why they are not. It most likely isn't looks that are the issue, which is apparently what you are thinking it is about.

Of course, "looks matter". What the response generally is, is that "looks aren't all that matters". Charisma, attitude, empathy are going to come into play, much like apathy, narcissism, and vanity can as well.

That's not why they do it. They are vain. But its not about attracting the opposite gender for sex or love. It has the opposite effect.

You almost appear to grasp it in the thread. It wouldn't be looks that are the problem, but the vanity.

 

[steve_bank]

Context to what Lincoln said? Heard this in a Lincoln bio I watched.

Lincoln was not condensed attractive. He grew a beard as part of creating a public image.

AI Overview
Abraham Lincoln did not have a stark or sharp jawline. Historical accounts and his life masks show his face was elongated with relatively soft, rounded features rather than a chiseled or highly defined jaw.His bone structure featured several distinct characteristics:

Facial Asymmetry: Medical studies, including laser scans by ophthalmologists, show he had a condition called craniofacial microsomia, where the left side of his face was noticeably smaller and somewhat flatter than the right

Soft Contours: While he had high cheekbones, the lower half of his face was not sharply defined.

Facial Hair: Because he is often remembered for his iconic beard, his actual jawline was generally hidden from the public eye. He grew the beard in 1860, which softened and altered the perceived shape of his chin and jaw.

AI Overview
President Abraham Lincoln's clothes were not selected by consultants in the modern sense. Lincoln chose his own wardrobe, and the 19th-century version of an "image consultant" did not exist for presidents. Instead, he utilized custom tailors to craft a signature, deliberate aesthetic that amplified his towering figure and humble beginnings.

I remember Dan Rather and his sweaters.

AI Overview
The "Dan Rather sweater" refers to a famous fashion pivot in 1982 when CBS News anchor Dan Rather began wearing V-neck sweaters under his suit jacket during the CBS Evening News broadcasts.

Why He Wore the SweaterTo soften his image: Television critics and network executives felt Rather's on-air "stare" and intense demeanor made him seem too stern.

The original excuse: Rather originally threw on his first lamb's wool sweater simply because he had a cold before a major snowstorm.

The ratings boost: Audiences and his wife loved the look, and it successfully softened his intense television presence, helping the broadcast climb in the ratings.

Looks do matter.

 

[Jarhyn]

Apparently, somebody needs an education regarding the differences between male and female brains. Anyone who is curious about our brains would know about these differences, but I will at least provide some information for those who are ignorant regarding this topic.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

There is a lot more info in the link, and there are multiple sources, that one can easily find, that provide similar information. Male and female brains our different. That's a fact. Plus there's that hormonal thing that also influences us.

I'm just curious. Who in this thread do you think would disagree with this? The few queer theory pomo fans we have on the forum haven't been active in this thread. I have the same views as you. Which should obvious from my posts.

Who in hits thread said men and women are the same?

Wasn't me. Was it you Pood? Who said it?

Any Idea who said it DrZ?

Nobody said it. You just hallucinated that I said it. I even quoted the quote you misunderstood, and explained your mistake, repeatedly.

No, you did in fact say that their brains are neurologically identical, which equates to saying they are the same, because behavior is neurologically driven.

The brain in all its intricate shapes... the same. Identical

You are the one that claimed that male and female brains are identical, when nothing could be further from the truth.

All the nerves all go in the exact same pattern on any human...

Are we going to just ignore the multiple times where you said it?

 

[thebeave]

Here’s a weird thing about people. Most of us are not 9’s or 10’s or even 1’s or 2’s — for those of us who adhere to these juvenile, nonsensical indices. Most of us are somewhere in the middle, roughly,

Yet people get together and make more people, and even love each into old age when they look wrinkled and often grotesque.

Lincoln famously said, “The good lord must have loved the common-LOOKING people, since he made so many of them.” The “looking” part is commonly omitted from the “common” quote.

During one of his 1858 debates with Steven Douglas, Lincoln, whom Douglas had accused of being two-faced, responded with his customary wit: “If I had another face, do you think I’d be wearing this one?”

I think what you and Southern Hybrid are confused about is stuff you are projecting onto what he's saying.

He's not talking about human worth. He's not saying that we should care about looks. He's acknowleging that its a thing and that it affects us. Pretending that it doesn't isn't helping. Its like denying racism exists because we don't like racism. It doesn't help.

FYI, women are rarely attracted to bodybuilders.

Indeed, one thing women hate are muscles. That is why women only try to pick guys up at ComicCons.

I think the question to ask, assuming "women are rarely attracted to bodybuilders" is accurate, is why they are not. It most likely isn't looks that are the issue, which is apparently what you are thinking it is about.

Of course, "looks matter". What the response generally is, is that "looks aren't all that matters". Charisma, attitude, empathy are going to come into play, much like apathy, narcissism, and vanity can as well.

That's not why they do it. They are vain. But its not about attracting the opposite gender for sex or love. It has the opposite effect.

You almost appear to grasp it in the thread. It wouldn't be looks that are the problem, but the vanity.

Women like a muscular build, but not to the extreme of a body builder. The reason I've heard is that the big muscles implies the guy is excessively vain and self absorbed. Women don't want a guy who is more vain than they are.

 

[Elixir]

Women like a muscular build, but not to the extreme of a body builder.

Sure. And men like athletic women, but not too athletic.
/ sarcasm
I don’t believe the palliative tropes like “there’s someone out there for everyone”, but there is no ugliness, grotesqueness (grotesquity?) or repellency that doesn’t attract at least some few people.
“People” like some weird shit.

 

[steve_bank]

Physically fit and healthy, nor necessarily a body builder.

 

[Jarhyn]

Women like a muscular build, but not to the extreme of a body builder.

Sure. And men like athletic women, but not too athletic.
/ sarcasm
I don’t believe the palliative tropes like “there’s someone out there for everyone”, but there is no ugliness, grotesqueness (grotesquity?) or repellency that doesn’t attract at least some few people.
“People” like some weird shit.

I know some folks who want to have a fat lard of a spouse, the fatter the better, on all sides of whatever classes you care to name that are not "the identity of the desire itself": skinny people with dicks who want fat lards with a vagina, fat lards with dicks wanted by skinny ladies with vaginas, and then fat lards for fat lards, and skinny folks for skinny folks.

I have broad, arcane, and often hazardous knowledge about the weird shit people like.

To get the biggest elephant in the room out on the floor for viewing, though, it's excrement. People seem to really get off over excrement, whether it's being peed on, pooped on, peeing on someone or pooping on someone, eating shit, watching others eat shit...

I don't really get it. I really don't. Shit isn't my thing, that I know of. But if we're talking about what people pay the big bucks for porn of, it's shitting. I'll admit to a light affinity for pee?

So from my perspective, the shit people are into is not even generally all that weird. Mostly it comes down to the "just plain normal poop-from-a-butt shit". Or excrement in general.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

And he's a body builder. So obviously he's talking from being in the shallow end of humanity. ...

That's a pretty insulting generalization to make about posters here who train, myself included, by the way. Assuming someone lacks depth just because they have the discipline to push weights consistently is, ironically, a shallow statement.

It also misses the bigger picture of how attraction works. Interestingly, the way people behave directly impacts how beautiful others think they are. This is called the halo effect.

Now, it isn't like there is absolutely nothing to the video, but the way our minds work ought to also modify conclusions somewhat.