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Hope For The Dying

I think by now the evidence is overwhelming that animals have minds, and in general are much more intelligent than we ever believed. It is now known that even ants can pass the mirror test. The test probably isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, though, since while dogs cannot pass, they DO pass a “mirror odor” test, recognizing their own odors. I’m pretty sure no human could pass that test.
 
How many mg per hour of Dilaudid would constitute sufficient pain relief in your opinion?

Wouldn't that depend on the individual patient? I thought you used to be a doctor.

What happens when the patient gets habituated to Dilaudid and it no longer works?

Well, the one thing which DOESNT happen is an automatic presumption that the patient should now be euthanized.

What happens when the Dilaudid puts the patient into respiratory failure and you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator?

Why are you asking me? You've answered your own question.

"...you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator".

Would they still want to live?

I don't understand why you think they weren't already suicidal long before they got to that point. And if they were, you're still stuck with the question of whether the State should legalize assisted or unassisted suicide.

One of the biggest issues in this space is...why should a physician get to decide what I can and can't do with my own body - and WHEN.
 
Well, the one thing which DOESNT happen is an automatic presumption that the patient should now be euthanized.

NO.ONE. Presumes this.
The patient has to ASK FOR IT.
And you know this, it has been clarified a thousand times.

So why this untrue accusation?
Doesn’t your jesus frown on making claims that you know to be untrue?

One of the biggest issues in this space is...why should a physician get to decide what I can and can't do with my own body - and WHEN.

The Physician NEVER. GETS. TO. DECIDE.
The patient decides. Every time, all of the time.

And you know this. It has been clarified a thousand times.


All assisted death with dignity is voluntary and requested in front of people qualified to ensure that it is voluntary.

AS. YOU. KNOW.


This strawman that ignores the plain truth is only dished out to support the opinion that YOU get to decide instead of the person who owns the body. You want YOU to decide what happens to other people’s bodies.

It’s so pathetic to whine, “I don’t want someone else to decide what I do with my body,” WHILE you are arguing that YOU get to decide what other people do with their bodies. Can you not even see yourself here? You want to decide FOR ME, and you have never even met me.
 
Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

Of course it is.
The question is about our response.
There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death. (Or making a person think that's the best outcome for all concerned )

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.
This isn't fantasyland where the message makes reality. They know what the situation is.

You think they know they have relatives who are waiting for them to die?

You think they know people want them to end their life prematurely so their money can go to the probate/estate executor instead of paying for continued medical care?

Gee. That's grim. It's almost as if they are being emotionally coerced into suicide.

That extra stress surely can't be good
 
Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

Of course it is.
The question is about our response.
There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death. (Or making a person think that's the best outcome for all concerned )

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.
This isn't fantasyland where the message makes reality. They know what the situation is.

You think they know they have relatives who are waiting for them to die?

You think they know people want them to end their life prematurely so their money can go to the probate/estate executor instead of paying for continued medical care?

Which people want them to end their life prematurely, for the purpose of getting their money? Granted that may be true for some people, but what grounds do you have to generalize this claim? None at all, of course, just like your inability to offer grounds as to why Sky Santa isn’t to blame for brain cancer in innocent children.

How about you now respond to the above post from Rhea, who effortlessly laid bare your entire pathetic dishonesty?
 
Which people want them to end their life prematurely, for the purpose of getting their money?

The ones who want them to end their life prematurely, for the purpose of getting their money. That's who.

Granted that may be true for some people,

Thanks for the acknowledgement that I'm not making this up.

...what grounds do you have to generalize this claim?

I don't generalize it.
Neither do we have homicide laws in the mistaken generalized belief that most people want to kill their fellow humans.

How about you now respond to the above post from Rhea, who effortlessly laid bare your entire pathetic dishonesty?

If you call me a rape apologist or a troll, or mentally ill, dementia, etc, I'll stop answering your posts too. (You might think that's a good thing - you'll get to 'effortlessly lay bare' my posts unchallenged.)

Now, if you said.. I'm sorry, I didn't mean rape apologist... I shouldn't have called you that... I lost my temper... could we start over please... I'd like to have a forceful robust, yet civil argument (where Lion IRC isn't the topic,) then I will always forgive and forget.

But if you think I'm a troll, don't feed me.

If you think I'm mentally ill, save your debating skills and back-slapping victories for an opponent who ISNT.

And if you think I'm a scum of the earth vermin who promotes the rape of women and children then you shouldnt 'platform' me.
 
Read the Niven/Pournelle novel "Inferno". A version of hell that actually makes some sense.
I'm not familiar with that.
I am familiar with a Christian denomination called "Universalist". They are otherwise fairly standard trinitarians. But they teach "Universal Salvation". Essentially, "Almighty God wants all his children Saved. Almighty God gets what Almighty God wants. Therefore everyone is saved."

It's not a "get out of Hell free" card. Depending on how you lived your life you might require a good deal of "purification". But nothing like eternal damnation.
Tom
Their version the person truly must see the error of their ways and repent. And it's based on Dante's version--the only exit is at the center, you must pass through all the rings of sins worse than yours to get there.

And they have some very creative punishments. Like the guy on a bicycle, turns a generator, lights a light. If he doesn't pedal enough a generator kicks in to light the light--and the exhaust goes in his face. Environmentalist, when he learned that he was fighting the wrong fight he kept on anyway because he would become a nobody if he quit.

Everyone's apparently (we see everything from the eyes of a character, there's no big picture) immortal but can be injured to incapacity.
 
"The ones who want them to end their life prematurely, for the purpose of getting their money. That's who"


With checks and balances, the planned death of a patient is not up to the people who want the money, where each case is assessed, including the patients wishes and the relatives motives, before anything is approved.
 
There is only one important difference between humanity and the animals--the mind.
This definition makes most mammals and many birds (along with other more distant relatives such as cuttlefish and octopi) a part of "humanity".

If you genuinely believe that Daily Mail readers have a "mind", while dogs do not, then I would love to see your evidence for that belief.
I meant a human-level mind.

And that doesn't mean they actually use said mind, only that they have it.
 
With checks and balances, the planned death of a patient is not up to the people who want the money...

Therefore, without checks and balances...?

QED Unknown Soldier
 
How many mg per hour of Dilaudid would constitute sufficient pain relief in your opinion?

Wouldn't that depend on the individual patient? I thought you used to be a doctor.
What you fail to understand is that the lines between "enough" (which is measured in pain control) and "too much" (which is measured in respiratory depression) eventually cross.

What happens when the Dilaudid puts the patient into respiratory failure and you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator?

Why are you asking me? You've answered your own question.

"...you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator".
But what's the point in such a life? If you're not conscious to experience it where's the value?

And AFIAK there's no place where I could tell the doctor: I know the lines are going to cross. Let it happen, do not use the ventilator.


Would they still want to live?

I don't understand why you think they weren't already suicidal long before they got to that point. And if they were, you're still stuck with the question of whether the State should legalize assisted or unassisted suicide.

One of the biggest issues in this space is...why should a physician get to decide what I can and can't do with my own body - and WHEN.
Strawman--nobody's saying that they should get to tell you what to do with your body. This whole thing is about the patient's decision. The doctor is only deciding if the legal requirements are met and in some cases of whether the patient meets any contingencies they may have set up. (Some countries have laws set up that the patient can make contingent requests.)
 

You think they know they have relatives who are waiting for them to die?

You think they know people want them to end their life prematurely so their money can go to the probate/estate executor instead of paying for continued medical care?

Gee. That's grim. It's almost as if they are being emotionally coerced into suicide.

That extra stress surely can't be good
Most people don't leave much of an estate anyway.
 

You think they know they have relatives who are waiting for them to die?

You think they know people want them to end their life prematurely so their money can go to the probate/estate executor instead of paying for continued medical care?

Gee. That's grim. It's almost as if they are being emotionally coerced into suicide.

That extra stress surely can't be good
Most people don't leave much of an estate anyway.
That's so true. Lion IRC seems to be implying most people want to kill off their relative to get an early inheritance, and as in the USA most people are nominally Christian, he means Christians want to give an early send off to heaven (or hell) to the relative.
Also many of the people who would be eligible for voluntary euthanasia are already in a terminal condition, so those relatives would expect to inherit soon anyway even without euthanasia. Although this type of relative has probably given prior indication of their avarice, and so may be omitted from the person's will years earlier. Euthanasia is for the benefit of the real person who chooses it, not some hypothetical greedy relatives.
 

You think they know they have relatives who are waiting for them to die?

You think they know people want them to end their life prematurely so their money can go to the probate/estate executor instead of paying for continued medical care?

Gee. That's grim. It's almost as if they are being emotionally coerced into suicide.

That extra stress surely can't be good
Most people don't leave much of an estate anyway.

Well, maybe that's because "most people" don't end their lives prematurely.

Remember, my concern is for patients who DO have money their impatient relatives are thinking about and whether that money could buy a time extension and/or a better quality of life.

Strawman--nobody's saying that they should get to tell you what to do with your body.

That's exactly what is up for debate.
Whether you need a physician's approval to end your own life.

This whole thing is about the patient's decision.

Show me a way for a patient to do whatever they want without the involvement of any other players and you might have a point.

But the minute you include other decision makers and influencers, then The State has an interest in ensuring the system won't legalise murder or coerced suicide.

The doctor is only deciding if the legal requirements are met...

Leaving the power in the hands of one person - a person who isnt the patient.
 
Lion IRC seems to be implying most people want to kill off their relative to get an early inheritance,

No. I think most people (quite rightly) do NOT want to do that.

Just as I think most people in general don't want to commit homicide. And yet we still have laws criminalizing homicide.
 
One of the biggest issues in this space is...why should a physician get to decide what I can and can't do with my own body - and WHEN.
No, that issue is MASSIVELY overshadowed by why should a priest get to decide what I can and can't do with my own body - and WHEN.

Voluntary Assisted Dying is the exact opposite of a physician making that decision, and instead allows the patient to choose.

Why do you oppose upholding the patient's choice, if and when that choice is death? What gives you, I, or anyone else (be they physicians, priests, or plumbers) a better right to decide than the patient?
 
Dear Lion,


I'm sorry, I didn't mean rape apologist... I shouldn't have called you that... I lost my temper... could we start over please... I'd like to have a forceful robust, yet civil argument
 

You think they know they have relatives who are waiting for them to die?

You think they know people want them to end their life prematurely so their money can go to the probate/estate executor instead of paying for continued medical care?

Gee. That's grim. It's almost as if they are being emotionally coerced into suicide.

That extra stress surely can't be good
Most people don't leave much of an estate anyway.

Well, maybe that's because "most people" don't end their lives prematurely.
An awful lot of people have little beyond what they actually use. Personal possessions, perhaps a house. Remember that most retirement income is tied to life and disappears when they die. And note that AFIAK all countries with euthanasia are UHC countries--no appreciable medical bills. Some US states permit lethal prescriptions but the patient must do it themselves, something they can't always do.

Remember, my concern is for patients who DO have money their impatient relatives are thinking about and whether that money could buy a time extension and/or a better quality of life.
You're acting as if it would be a widespread problem. And you're assuming the checks built into the system wouldn't catch such cases.

Strawman--nobody's saying that they should get to tell you what to do with your body.

That's exactly what is up for debate.
Whether you need a physician's approval to end your own life.
You have it backwards. A typical reasonably competent person can end their life with very high reliability. (Suicide failures are very often due to mental illness--an impulsive act with whatever is at hand rather than a reasoned act that requires advance planning.) The problem comes in that by the time you have reached the point you would wish to take that path you are no longer physically capable of doing so, especially if you need to take multiple actions within a reasonably narrow period of time. It's about having outside assistance to do what you can no longer do. And the doctors can do sequenced things that patients are inherently incapable of. (Canada uses an anesthetic followed by a paralytic.)

This whole thing is about the patient's decision.

Show me a way for a patient to do whatever they want without the involvement of any other players and you might have a point.

But the minute you include other decision makers and influencers, then The State has an interest in ensuring the system won't legalise murder or coerced suicide.
Yes, but that doesn't mean a blanket prohibition.

The doctor is only deciding if the legal requirements are met...

Leaving the power in the hands of one person - a person who isnt the patient.
Nothing requires a patient to sign such an advanced directive. They can choose to appoint someone to carry out their wishes, there is no forcing. (This was added in Canada because there's a waiting period in their law--and too many people ended up denied in the end because they had gone far enough downhill to no longer be able to give informed consent.)
 
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Yo, @Lion IRC - please stop being wrong about medical aid in dying for the terminally ill; there's no need to be so mistaken. You are not quoting the laws. @Loren Pechtel is providing facts and information that are true and legal. Your arguments are no match for the actual laws and actual experiences that exist and take place. I don't understand why you're going on about end-of-life care without just reading the laws you seem to be very interested in learning about.

Visit Compassion and Choices. https://www.compassionandchoices.org/

To the person who called medical aid in dying "assisted suicide," please don't do that. Suicide is not rational; other words apply if the decision is rational. Allow me to quote Compassion and Choices, a national nonprofit I once supported with my activism in person and at the polls in New Jersey:

What is medical aid in dying?​

A trusted and time-tested medical practice that allows a terminally ill, mentally capable adult with a prognosis of six months or less to live to request from their doctor a prescription for medication they can decide to self-ingest to die peacefully in their sleep.

Medical aid in dying is sometimes incorrectly referred to as “assisted physician suicide,” “physician aid in dying,” “death with dignity,” and “euthanasia.” Medical aid in dying is not assisted suicide, suicide, or euthanasia. These terms are misleading and factually incorrect.

Further reading and a list of US states where medical aid in dying for the terminally ill is safe and legal: https://www.compassionandchoices.org/our-issues/medical-aid-in-dying
 
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