How Criminality Became a Black Thing

[AthenaAwakened]

at 29:44, there is an explanation you won't want to miss.

 

[Derec]

Do you have a tl;dw summary of the video? After all, it's almost an hour and a half.

As to your title, while criminality is certainly not a "black thing", I think even you would have to admit that when it comes to violent crimes, blacks in the US commit far more than their fair share. For example, according to FBI blacks commit homicide at a rate 5 times higher than whites and black-on-white homicides are twice as likely as white-on-black homicides, despite what media and BLM activists might lead you to believe.

 

[barbos]

Current crime statistics is technically true but it is still a result of shitty treatment of blacks until this day.
As for using prison system and phony conviction for profit there were recent cases of this too.

 

[barbos]

Do you have a tl;dw summary of the video? After all, it's almost an hour and a half.

Former slave owners used corrupt justice and prison system to continue slavery until 1940s. And federal government did not do much to stop it.
Pretty depressing documentary.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do you have a tl;dw summary of the video? After all, it's almost an hour and a half.

As to your title, while criminality is certainly not a "black thing", I think even you would have to admit that when it comes to violent crimes, blacks in the US commit far more than their fair share. For example, according to FBI blacks commit homicide at a rate 5 times higher than whites and black-on-white homicides are twice as likely as white-on-black homicides, despite what media and BLM activists might lead you to believe.

People tend to be what you condition them to be. And people in desperate conditions tend to turn to desperate means. It should be no surprise that per capita black people in the US do more crime than white people. They are per capita more likely to live in poverty and face discrimination and expectations of them being criminals. Change the perception and change the societal pressures, and you could see very different numbers.

 

[Axulus]

Do you have a tl;dw summary of the video? After all, it's almost an hour and a half.

As to your title, while criminality is certainly not a "black thing", I think even you would have to admit that when it comes to violent crimes, blacks in the US commit far more than their fair share. For example, according to FBI blacks commit homicide at a rate 5 times higher than whites and black-on-white homicides are twice as likely as white-on-black homicides, despite what media and BLM activists might lead you to believe.

People tend to be what you condition them to be. And people in desperate conditions tend to turn to desperate means. It should be no surprise that per capita black people in the US do more crime than white people. They are per capita more likely to live in poverty and face discrimination and expectations of them being criminals. Change the perception and change the societal pressures, and you could see very different numbers.

People of hispanic ethnicity are also more likely to live in poverty and face discrimination (although to a lesser degree than blacks). Yet we see the following:

2013 race/ethnicity breakdown of population:

White alone, not hispanic or latino: 62.6%
Hispanic or latino: 17.1%
Black or African American alone 13.2%

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

FBI Crime Statistics - 2013, arrests, percent distribution of total, by race/ethnicity:

White /Black/Hispanic or Latino

(note that whites who are also of Hispanic or Latino ethnicity are included in the white arrest numbers, they did not have data for arrests for white alone).

Murder and neg manslaughter 45%/52%/13%
Rape 66%/32%/15%
Robbery 42%/56%/11%
Aggravated assault 63%/34%/15%
Burglary 67%/30%/12%
Larceny-theft 68%/29%/6%
Motor vehicle theft 67%/31%/16%
Arson 74%/23%/8%
Other assaults 65%/32%/7%

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

Not in a single one of these categories are they arrested in greater proportion to their percent of the population.

 

[Juma]

People tend to be what you condition them to be. And people in desperate conditions tend to turn to desperate means. It should be no surprise that per capita black people in the US do more crime than white people. They are per capita more likely to live in poverty and face discrimination and expectations of them being criminals. Change the perception and change the societal pressures, and you could see very different numbers.

People of hispanic ethnicity are also more likely to live in poverty and face discrimination (although to a lesser degree than blacks). Yet we see the following:

2013 race/ethnicity breakdown of population:

White alone, not hispanic or latino: 62.6%
Hispanic or latino: 17.1%
Black or African American alone 13.2%

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

FBI Crime Statistics - 2013, arrests, percent distribution of total, by race/ethnicity:

White/Black/Hispanic or Latino

(note that whites who are also of Hispanic or Latino ethnicity are included in the white arrest numbers, they did not have data for arrests for white alone).

Murder and neg manslaughter 45%/52%/13%
Rape66%/32%/15%
Robbery42%/56%/11%
Aggravated assault63%/34%/15%
Burglary67%/30%/12%
Larceny-theft68%/29%/6%
Motor vehicle theft 67%/31%/16%
Arson 74%/23%/8%
Other assaults65%/32%/7%

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

Not in a single one of these categories are they arrested in greater proportion to their percent of the population.

Hispanics where never slaves. Doesnt that tell you something

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Do you have a tl;dw summary of the video? After all, it's almost an hour and a half.

As to your title, while criminality is certainly not a "black thing", I think even you would have to admit that when it comes to violent crimes, blacks in the US commit far more than their fair share. For example, according to FBI blacks commit homicide at a rate 5 times higher than whites and black-on-white homicides are twice as likely as white-on-black homicides, despite what media and BLM activists might lead you to believe.

IIRC, this doesn't change the fact that the majority of violent crimes are STILL committed by white perpetrators and blacks AS A GROUP are more likely to be involved in (not always perpetrators of) violent crimes. Those two distinctions are important because

1) Black people AS A GROUP tend to live in areas where violent crimes are more common for all residents OF those neighborhoods (also known as "the ghetto")

2) Police reporting does not always distinguish between the perpetrator and the victim of a violent crime, as in the case of, say, a fist fight or a road range incident where BOTH subjects may be charged with assault.

It's also worth pointing out -- again -- that black people are not being INCARCERATED at high rates for violent crimes, which implies that most of the "violent crimes" black people are charged with are not jailable offenses. These would include assault and battery, breaking in entering, vandalism and/or destruction of property, domestic violence and disorderly conduct.

All of which falls under the general category of "being loud and obnoxious and dangerously irresponsible." Behaviors which are not particularly uncommon in the ghetto.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Three strikes laws
the criminalization of drugs
the privatization of collection of fines and fees for traffic violations

all these law and policies have had similar effects on black life chances as did the vagrancy laws, public decency laws, and the convict leasing program did in the years between Reconstruction and WWII.

Just curious, how many people committing on this thread have actually watched the video?

 

[RavenSky]

Do you have a tl;dw summary of the video? After all, it's almost an hour and a half.

As to your title, while criminality is certainly not a "black thing", I think even you would have to admit that when it comes to violent crimes, blacks in the US commit far more than their fair share. For example, according to FBI blacks commit homicide at a rate 5 times higher than whites and black-on-white homicides are twice as likely as white-on-black homicides, despite what media and BLM activists might lead you to believe.

The second part of your post above is why you asking for the Cliff Notes version of the video is so wrong on so many levels. Seriously dude, you spend far more than 1.5 hours on this board on a regular basis, so why won't you spend that time watching the video and learning something that will help you answer your own questions.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Do you have a tl;dw summary of the video? After all, it's almost an hour and a half.

As to your title, while criminality is certainly not a "black thing", I think even you would have to admit that when it comes to violent crimes, blacks in the US commit far more than their fair share. For example, according to FBI blacks commit homicide at a rate 5 times higher than whites and black-on-white homicides are twice as likely as white-on-black homicides, despite what media and BLM activists might lead you to believe.

Derec, did you read the sentence UNDER THE VIDEO?

I already knocked off a half hour for you. and if necessary you can stop watching 32:20

Surely you have 3 minutes to watch a snippet.

unless of course you don't really give a shit, and just want to use these boards to vent about how horrible black people are.

 

[Rhea]

I find it interesting (and frustrating and very very sad and wrong) that people will see the discrimination and say, "it's really a matter of socioeconomic status and not racial discrimination" and thereby absolve themselves of worrying about racial discrimination, indeed, even use this to deny it exists. All the while failing to realize the obvious in front of them that racial discrimination is what CAUSES so much of the poverty that black people in America face, and thence the crimes that come with poverty.

Taken all together, yes, the cause of a lot of this crime is indeed simply racial discrimination that we can address and stop and change things for the better.

And that is OUTSIDE OF the direct racial discrimination that leads to people who are black being arrested more for the SAME CRIME than people who are white encounter.

I apologize, I cannot watch the video (bandwidth restrictions). But going from what is being discussed it just seems so strikingly OBVIOUS to me that if you arrest people on a large scale, you have harmed their employment opportunities. Directly causing more poverty and all of the problems inherent in that. That when you decide to punish people who are black more often and more severely for identical behaviors then discrimination is directly responsible for the biased statistics as well as the real behaviors, BOTH of which are adding up to this false narrative that "black culture" (or worse, black genes) are creating crime.

No. White culture has a strong hand in this. A leading hand, IMHO. One that we can fix if we can only admit it.

People who are black are arrested at a higher rate for the same drug crimes that whites are committing at the same rates.
Leads to black people having arrest records that keep them from jobs.
People who are black and have been arrested are convicted more often for the same crimes that whites are arrested for.
Leads to more people who are black having conviction records and difficulty getting jobs in an even wider arena. Also leads to harsher treatment by police the next time they are unequally arrested. ("He had a record a mile long")
People who are black are more likely to get longer sentences than white people who are convicted for the same crimes.
Leads to more people who are black stuck in a criminal cohort since they are in jail with worse offenders.


And all for the want of a horseshoe nail, as it were.

By making a law that says cocaine used by people who are black is a worse crime than cocaine used by people who are white, it is the WHITE CULTURE that has caused black crime rate.

How people can decide not to see this is disturbing and so deeply wrong.

Before anyone has a right to say "black culture causes crime" they need to first either eliminate the white culture contribution and see what difference is actually left, or they need to speak to the white culture contribution and address both in the same breath.

I'm okay with working on both, although it sure is hard to say how much is actually "black culture" when the contribution of white culture TODAY... NOW... not back in slavery, is so vast and debilitating.

 

[bleubird]

Do you have a tl;dw summary of the video? After all, it's almost an hour and a half.

As to your title, while criminality is certainly not a "black thing", I think even you would have to admit that when it comes to violent crimes, blacks in the US commit far more than their fair share. For example, according to FBI blacks commit homicide at a rate 5 times higher than whites and black-on-white homicides are twice as likely as white-on-black homicides, despite what media and BLM activists might lead you to believe.

Derec, did you read the sentence UNDER THE VIDEO?

I already knocked off a half hour for you. and if necessary you can stop watching 32:20

Surely you have 3 minutes to watch a snippet.

unless of course you don't really give a shit, and just want to use these boards to vent about how horrible black people are.

Derec will never make the effort to inform himself of the history of this nation.

 

[Derec]

IIRC, this doesn't change the fact that the majority of violent crimes are STILL committed by white perpetrators

There are a lot more whites than blacks in this country and thus you have to look at per capita rates, not raw numbers.

and blacks AS A GROUP are more likely to be involved in (not always perpetrators of) violent crimes.

I guess you are trying to say that whites commit violent crimes against blacks more often than vice versa. But at least when when it comes to homicides, black on white homicides are more twice as likely as the reverse, according to FBI. I know that is not the impression one gets from watching the news, where race is emphasized with white-on-black crime but downplayed with black-on-white crime and even less from BLM activists who spew nonsense about there being "open season" or even "genocide" on blacks and how they are afraid of walking down the street because they are afraid of whites and/or police when vast majority of homicides with black victims happen at the hand of black civilians.

Those two distinctions are important because

you like playing fast and loose with statistics like ignoring overall population numbers. Same nonsense has been frequently attempted with food stamp recipients as well, comparing raw numbers only and coming to invalid - but politically correct - conclusions.

1) Black people AS A GROUP tend to live in areas where violent crimes are more common for all residents OF those neighborhoods (also known as "the ghetto")

Choice to engage in violent crime is still the individual's responsibility. Plenty of 16 year olds living in poverty do not choose rob people at gunpoint.

2) Police reporting does not always distinguish between the perpetrator and the victim of a violent crime, as in the case of, say, a fist fight or a road range incident where BOTH subjects may be charged with assault.

And what effect do you think that has on crime breakdown by race?

It's also worth pointing out -- again -- that black people are not being INCARCERATED at high rates for violent crimes, which implies that most of the "violent crimes" black people are charged with are not jailable offenses.

I do not understand what you mean here.

These would include assault and battery, breaking in entering, vandalism and/or destruction of property, domestic violence and disorderly conduct.
All of which falls under the general category of "being loud and obnoxious and dangerously irresponsible." Behaviors which are not particularly uncommon in the ghetto.

Those are all jailable offenses. Whether or not they are "not uncommon in the ghetto". And everything you listed except "disorderly conduct" does not fall under "being loud and obnoxious".

- - - Updated - - -

Derec will never make the effort to inform himself of the history of this nation.

Informing oneself about history !=watching a 90 min surely to be biased video that Athena linked to.

 

[fast]

I have a very specific question that I am no longer sure what the answer is. It's hard to ask, so I'll lead with a story about a childhood thought regarding cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol. I once upon a time held the view (in early grade school) that we can easily control our behavior. Thus, I thought anyone could easily quit those things just by not taking their hands and putting the things to their mouth. The part that I had wrong was thinking it's easy. Clearly, it's not easy, mostly because those things are addictions, a snippet of all behaviors that can be controlled but not necessarily easily so.

Although I hear about the propensities for certain members of our society to be more likely to commit crime, I still have a tendency to minimize and somewhat dismiss the purported reasons WHY they commit crimes, primarily because they are not addictions. The mistake I made as a kid was minimizing the stronghold the addictive chemicals had over people, and I'm wondering if I'm making a mistake in minimizing whatever stronghold underlies the kinds of criminal behavior in question now.

Most of you would likely say yes, as evidenced by discussing the history and current explanations of how things have unfolded to how things are now. I have a tendency to shrug off the non-addicive reasons (regardless of how pervasive those things have manifested) and hold steadfast to the notion that despite the historic and current circumstances, people can still control their behavior, but I am open to hearing if the ease in which it can be done is as severely overestimated as was the greatness of the mistake I made as a child.

Telling me why they're doing what they're doing just isn't good enough. Telling me how historic events led to where we are simply explains the situation. I want to know if the psychological drive to turn to a life of crime has the kind of stronghold over people as do people with addictions. It's not enough that their opportunities are minimal. There are too many that are able to escape what history has wrought for me to accept what it feels like I'm being fed.

Don't commit crime, obey the law, and substantially fewer heartaches will manifest. Not easy? People have a tendency to turn away from the seemingly less important issues when faced with a greater issue--rightly so. For instance, as an example, if a white cop unjustifiably shoots a fleeing black person, a typical comment made is that he wouldn't have been shot had he not run. Of course, such a comment is almost invariably irrelevant, as the central core issue has more to do with the unjustifible act of the officer, and as such, a sensible rebuttal to what is relevant at the time is that he wouldn't have been shot had the officer never acted unjustifiably.

At any rate, turn your attention to the seemingly less relevant point when explaining not the systemic high crime rates and the history leading to their plight. Just as each individual may find great difficulty in putting down the cigs, drugs, and drinks, what underlying stronghold do the individual criminals face at the moment of decision? Yes, I hear clearly that circumstances of days gone by have ultimately culminated to where we are, but that's not enough for me. It's not easy to quit smoking. It's not easy to stop drug usage. It's not easy to put the bottle down. And yes, there may very well be rippled down reprocussions from slavery, but it's easy to not pick up a gun. It's easy to not sell drugs. It's easy to say, "yes officer, I will comply."

Control your behavior. It's not that hard. Or, is it?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I find it interesting (and frustrating and very very sad and wrong) that people will see the discrimination and say, "it's really a matter of socioeconomic status and not racial discrimination" and thereby absolve themselves of worrying about racial discrimination, indeed, even use this to deny it exists.

I presume you are not talking about my post above, as I said both.

I'm okay with working on both, although it sure is hard to say how much is actually "black culture" when the contribution of white culture TODAY... NOW... not back in slavery, is so vast and debilitating.

I think it may be a phenomenon similar to learned helplessness. Blacks were enslaved in your country, and are still today stereotyped as criminals and thugs and gangsters. Many live in poverty. That needs to change. Keep telling a kid he's a thug, and he'll very likely become one. Expectations often become reality. And poverty only speeds that along.

It has created a culture of learned helplessness that will persist no matter how fair things are made, even when affirmative action stuff ("reverse " discrimination) is put into place. I think your society through both media and public attitude programs that black means downtrodden (even in those who are not), and many don't see hope of rising out of this, and that turns into an anti-social counter-culture in many black youths, celebrating taking down whitey and leading to just as dangerous a racism in the other direction, celebrating of gangsta lifestyle, etc. That's what I see from the outside looking in. And the more you all (and by you all I mean Americans, not black or white ones) focus on race as relevant and important, the longer it will take you to overcome the racism in both directions.

Denying it can run both directions hampers you as well. When people like Athena here get up on their high horse about how white people are racist and black people can't be, that does more harm than good. When "Black Lives Matter" people mouth off at people who say "All lives matter" that also does you more harm than good. So long as you focus on your differences and your tribes of black and white, instead of on how you are all people, all fallible and susceptible to tribalism and racism, and all with the same needs and hopes, etc, you won't fix this. You need to draw on people's sense of empathy and similarity, not on their tribalism and differences.

Integration is key. I oppose affirmative action type stuff because I think it does more harm than good (it endorses racism), but the integration aspect of it is a positive. There must be other ways you can encourage integration. If the black guy and white guy are playing sports on the same team, or working on the same project, or going to the same church, etc, they are far less likely to continue racist sentiments, and that is the first step towards ending racism.

 

[Derec]

I find it interesting (and frustrating and very very sad and wrong) that people will see the discrimination and say, "it's really a matter of socioeconomic status and not racial discrimination" and thereby absolve themselves of worrying about racial discrimination, indeed, even use this to deny it exists.

In order to determine the extent of racial discrimination (and to gauge whether there is any at all) you must control for other variables, including socioeconomic status. F

All the while failing to realize the obvious in front of them that racial discrimination is what CAUSES so much of the poverty that black people in America face, and thence the crimes that come with poverty.

Many people are poor but do not engage in crime. Thus crime does not necessarily come with poverty.

I apologize, I cannot watch the video (bandwidth restrictions). But going from what is being discussed it just seems so strikingly OBVIOUS to me that if you arrest people on a large scale, you have harmed their employment opportunities. Directly causing more poverty and all of the problems inherent in that. That when you decide to punish people who are black more often and more severely for identical behaviors then discrimination is directly responsible for the biased statistics as well as the real behaviors, BOTH of which are adding up to this false narrative that "black culture" (or worse, black genes) are creating crime.

I think it is naive to discount the factor of culture when for example a 16 year old and some friends decide to steal cars and rob people at gunpoint.
Now some things that are currently criminalized should not be crimes at all, but most should. Theft, robbery, assault and battery, etc. are rightly crimes and people found guilty of them should be punished.

No. White culture has a strong hand in this. A leading hand, IMHO. One that we can fix if we can only admit it.

So "white culture" creates black crime, but "black culture" is innocent of it?

People who are black are arrested at a higher rate for the same drug crimes that whites are committing at the same rates.

And is that because of race or is it an artifact of other variables?

[People who are black and have been arrested are convicted more often for the same crimes that whites are arrested for.

Again, have variables been controlled for?

("He had a record a mile long")

Obviously that person didn't learn the first time he/she was arrested.

And all for the want of a horseshoe nail, as it were.

Huh?

By making a law that says cocaine used by people who are black is a worse crime than cocaine used by people who are white, it is the WHITE CULTURE that has caused black crime rate.

There was never such a law. It distinguished by type of drug - powder (hydrochloride salt) vs. crack (free base) - not by race of user. Crack is sufficiently different from cocaine HCl that different laws weren't just arbitrary.

Before anyone has a right to say "black culture causes crime" they need to first either eliminate the white culture contribution and see what difference is actually left, or they need to speak to the white culture contribution and address both in the same breath.

What you are doing is focusing solely on "white culture" while a priori calling any contribution by "black culture" a myth.

I'm okay with working on both, although it sure is hard to say how much is actually "black culture" when the contribution of white culture TODAY... NOW... not back in slavery, is so vast and debilitating.

When a 15 year old carjacks somebody at gunpoint it is hard for me to see how "white culture" is responsible for that.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

When a 15 year old carjacks somebody at gunpoint it is hard for me to see how "white culture" is responsible for that.

Start by seeing American culture instead of white or black culture. That 15 year old probably grew up with the image from American culture, media, friends, enemies, school, etc that black males are criminals. He probably grew up in a neighbourhood and with friends and neighbours that encouraged him to identify with his street or his group/gang/etc and to lack connection or empathy for those not in his group. So he decided to play his role. How is that "white" culture or "black" culture? That is both mixed together. It is American culture, if culture had any factor here at all. Could be he was just a bad apple regardless of race.

 

[Rhea]

Although I hear about the propensities for certain members of our society to be more likely to commit crime, I still have a tendency to minimize and somewhat dismiss the purported reasons WHY they commit crimes, primarily because they are not addictions. The mistake I made as a kid was minimizing the stronghold the addictive chemicals had over people, and I'm wondering if I'm making a mistake in minimizing whatever stronghold underlies the kinds of criminal behavior in question now.

[...]

Control your behavior. It's not that hard. Or, is it?

These are great questions. I think they get to the heart of HOW we fix things.


There are many studies confirming that if a person is raised with violence, they are more likely to use violence. The prevalence of people who abuse being people who have been abused is well documented. The mechanism for this includes both the tools they are taught, or rather not taught (I don't know how else to discipline a child,) and also the diminished mental capacity for dealing with stressors.

There are also many studies showing that people who live with repeated or constant stress or stressors become changed physiologically such that they are less able to use logic, planning patience and reason. Their long-term planning and gratification are damaged. These are phyisical brain changes that require therapy to treat.

There are many studies showing that poverty and food insecurity are exactly the kind of constant stressors that lead to damaged ability to react properly

It _is_ harder for people exposed to violence - either as victim or as bystander - to make good choices based on long-term consequences and reason because the violence has changed their fight-or-flight settings. Physically.



Many people decry people who are black as failing to have the necessary something (morality, work ethic, intelligence, empathy) to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and that further this quality is something that hard work and good morals can help you acquire.

Many of these SAME PEOPLE have the greatest sympathy and respect for soldiers absolutely decimated by PTSD. They have empathy for the soldier and agree that he needs medical help and deserves it.

Poverty creates many of the same symptoms of PTSD.
Witness to violence creates many of the same symptoms of PTSD.

So take a population - black americans - and put them through slavery, put them through jim crow, put them through stop and frisk, put them through redlined housing put them through lending discrmination, job discrimination, unequal schooling, unequal arrest rates, unequal sentencing structures, voter discrimination

and then , when they show signs of PTSD, the diminished ability to make long-range choices, and increased anger, then you blame them for it and call them lazy thugs.

Not every american who is black manifests this. Not every soldier facing trauma gets PTSD. Not every single abused child grows up to be an abuser.

But when the odds are higher, does it help any of us to just blame the victim and discard the true cause, letting it continue to ruin not only black lives but white ones as well?

No.

This is why I believe we need to address the white culture causes of the violence of poverty and the unequal presence of black lives in that poverty.

 

[Derec]

Start by seeing American culture instead of white or black culture. That 15 year old probably grew up with the image from American culture, media, friends, enemies, school, etc that black males are criminals.

Given that when he was 4 he took some crack with him to school I would say first and foremost family.
As far as culture portraying black men as criminals, that is usually culture made by blacks for blacks. Gangsta rap, movies starring gangsta rappers, Medea goes to jail [] etc. In "mainstream" culture (for example crime shows) I would say blacks are portrayed less frequently as criminals than in the real life.

He probably grew up in a neighbourhood and with friends and neighbours that encouraged him to identify with his street or his group/gang/etc and to lack connection or empathy for those not in his group. So he decided to play his role. How is that "white" culture or "black" culture? That is both mixed together. It is American culture, if culture had any factor here at all.

But again you have to explain why blacks commit homicide at a rate 5 times as high as whites.

Could be he was just a bad apple regardless of race.

That goes without saying. Most teenagers, regardless of race, do not engage in such behaviors.