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How government is failing US education

Yep.

Private sector needs to maximize shareholder value. Delivering education is not a top priority.
 
A couple of things: Charter schools are public schools. Certainly their originally stated purpose has been perverted from acting as education labs focusing on needs of students and giving greater autonomy to teachers and parents and then sharing the results of their endeavors to help broader populations of students to acting like publicly funded private schools. Which is a shame. Real reform is difficult in public education and is often weighed down in a morass of lingo and bureaucracy heavily spiced with conflicting demands from parents (more!) and the general public (no tax increase), all played for political effect. But that doesn't change the fact that charters are indeed public schools. Paid for with tax dollars.

There has been a dramatic increase in administration not only in K-12 but also in higher ed. Massive amounts of money are invested in pretty bells and whistles and special pet projects which result in a physical structure which may be displayed and named! and forever attributed to whatever lucky college president or provost who lead the project. Faculty are demonized just as public school teachers are demonized and tenure is becoming a seriously endangered species. My prediction is that in 20 years--or sooner--the overwhelming majority of university faculty (human that is) in the U.S. will be foreign born. A growing portion of 'learning' will take place online because it is more efficient. A lecturer (why even pretend they are professors anymore?) can reach thousands and a lecture hall's capacity will be irrelevant. So will be students, of course who will show up for their state of the art gym equipment and tail gate parties but not much else.

In my state at least, and I strongly suspect other states as well, the portion of public university costs which are paid for by the state has dramatically decreased over the last 20 years. The students are picking up the difference in costs and lending institutions are making out like bandits. Meanwhile, an entire generation is burdened by enormous student debt equal to mortgage payments which limits their ability to purchase homes, start families, start businesses! or take any kind of risk at all. Instead they become good little worker bees who are afraid to suggest rocking any kind of boat for fear of never graduating from their mother's basement. However alcohol and computer gaming sales are enormous.

I honestly think that the reason is that as a society, we hate children. We hate children because their needs force us to put aside our own childhood and childish pursuits and actually grow up.

Oh, and face the fact that we are getting older and have fucked over the younger generation quite royally and now we will be deservedly fucked as these kids we could not bother ushering to adulthood and equipping for their own future will have little interest or wherewithall to help us when we have declined past being able to look after ourselves.
 
I have a question. Does the U.S. falter in statistics due to the large immigration population? That's not a racist question and I'm not defending the U.S. out of some ass backward nationalism. It's just one of those things I've always wondered about--if it's taken into account.

In the southwestern states the schools are rife with ESL students and I have to think that has some bearing on statistics. So I wonder if that demographic is put aside, how does the U.S. fare?
 
I have a question. Does the U.S. falter in statistics due to the large immigration population? That's not a racist question and I'm not defending the U.S. out of some ass backward nationalism. It's just one of those things I've always wondered about--if it's taken into account.

In the southwestern states the schools are rife with ESL students and I have to think that has some bearing on statistics. So I wonder if that demographic is put aside, how does the U.S. fare?

Better yet why don't we just not count the stupid kids, that would really send our average test scores soaring.

Oh, I just thought of a reason. It is because the test scores are meant to gauge how well we are teaching all of the children that we actually have in the country. It is not some international contest, the Olympics of testing.
 
The biggest failure of our economics is its inability to put a value on the single most important resource that we have in the country, that any country has, its human capital. If we could say that we have lost two trillion dollars in human capital over the last decade and we had better invest more time and money in improving it to stop these massive losses, we would be much better off.

As it is our investments in human capital are considered costs, not investments. Contrast this with the nearly useless so called investments in purely financial instruments, money that does nothing to actually build the nation or its production capacity or improve its human capital. So called investments in stocks, bonds, derivatives, etc. that we are suppose to bow down and express appreciation to the wealthy that they make. That we are expected to tax at a lower rate even though they are no benefit to the real economy of providing jobs and producing the things that people need to live and raise a family.
 
Our gov't simply reflects the ambivalence the US public has about education. I don't blame gov't - we, the people, are the problem.
 
I have a question. Does the U.S. falter in statistics due to the large immigration population? That's not a racist question and I'm not defending the U.S. out of some ass backward nationalism. It's just one of those things I've always wondered about--if it's taken into account.

In the southwestern states the schools are rife with ESL students and I have to think that has some bearing on statistics. So I wonder if that demographic is put aside, how does the U.S. fare?

You would need to look at individual states (education is considered to be largely a state issue rather than a national issue). Most states report statistics for K-12 including the number of ESL students (which varies by school district), percentage of students living in poverty, minority status, etc. I did a very, very brief search and found the following student paper (so take it for what it is worth--even a cursory read notes some errors in statements but I posted it here because of the compilation of stats I couldn't easily reproduce) that looks at student achievement for offspring of immigrants by factors such as country of origin, family income, parental education level, number of siblings, number of family members living in the home, etc. The results are not surprising to me:

http://economics.stanford.edu/files/Theses/Theses_2006/Burk.pdf

To summarize, student achievement by children of recent immigrants varies widely and is broadly predicted by the country of origin. One reason for this, I assume would be that immigrants from some countries tend to hold much higher levels of academic achievement compared with immigrants from other countries. For example, immigrants from India or Pakistan are much more likely to hold advanced degrees than are Hmong immigrants or immigrants from Cambodia. Predictably, offspring of more well educated parents tend to have higher achievement in school.
 

I read the first article, I didn't bother to read the others. The first was incoherent enough.

Profit-seeking in the banking and health care industries has victimized Americans. Now it’s beginning to happen in education, with our children as the products.

So the whole article begins with an attack on "profit-seeking." It then cites two areas where profit-seeking has supposedly victimized Americans. One of those, banking, is a profit seeking sector, but health care is mostly non-profit. It's hard to see the relevance of this. Did profit seeking by General Motors "victimize" Americans? It seems quite the reverse. The problem with General Motors wasn't that they sought a profit, the problem was that they failed to achieve it. Were Americans better off back in the good old days when General Motors made a profit or afterward when they lost money?

The recently updated CREDO study at Stanford revealed that while charters have made progress since 2009, their performance is about the same as that of public schools. The differences are, in the words of the National Education Policy Center, “so small as to be regarded, without hyperbole, as trivial.” Furthermore, the four-year improvement demonstrated by charters may have been due to the closing of schools that underperformed in the earlier study, and also by a variety of means to discourage the attendance of lower-performing students.

I've heard of studies that reached different conclusions, but we'll go with this for sake of argument. Charter schools did improve, the study concluded but only because they closed down underperforming schools. Imagine that! They actually closed down schools that were underperforming. When has a public school been closed down for underperforming?

Furthermore, they distinguish between "public schools" and charter schools but charter schools are public schools. They're simply run under contract instead of directly by public authorities.

Education funding continues to be cut largely because corporations aren’t paying their state taxes.

Untrue, all you have to do is click on the article and read it. Nowhere does it say that corporations are not filing and paying their taxes. The author merely complains that they are only paying what is legally required. He somehow concludes that if they aren't all paying the top rate then they are not paying all of their taxes. They are paying what is required by law, it has nothing do with corporations withholding any required funds as the above statement claims.

Our nation’s impulsive experiment with privatization is causing our schools to look more like boardrooms than classrooms. Charter administrators make a lot more money than their public school counterparts, and their numbers are rapidly increasing. Teachers, on the other hand, are paid less, and they have fewer years of experience and a higher turnover rate.

Totally irrelevant. If high salaries for administrators and lower salaries for teachers leads to a better education then we should go for it. Maybe it doesn't, as they imply, but that is irrelevant in itself. The schools do not exist to provide high paying jobs for teachers.

Finally, the profit motive leads to questionable ethics among school operators, if not outright fraud. After a Los Angeles charter school manager misused funds, the California Charter Schools Association insisted that charter schools areexempt from criminal laws because they are private. The same argument was used in a Chicago case. Charters employ the privatization defense to justify their generous salaries while demanding instructional space as public entities. States around the country are being attracted to the money, as, for example, in Texas and Ohio, where charter-affiliated campaign contributions have led to increased funding and licenses for charter schools.

Public school administrators have never been caught with their hand in the till? I can't cite a public high school for certain, but here in Tallahassee it seems like they are always firing an administrator at FAMU for mis-handling funds. They got fired by I'm not aware of anyone being prosecuted. But in the case referenced above, if the company was a profit making company, then mishandled funds are an offense against the stockholders of that company, not the taxpayers, and if they are a non-profit enterprise, then the "profit-seeking" argument is irrelevant.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of charter schools. Education cannot be centralized. Big bureaucracies cannot pull this off and that includes big public-school bureaucracies. But the whole reason for the rise of charter schools is because the public schools are failing our students.

I went to a small rural school. We had exactly two full-time non-teaching personnel - the school superintendent and the janitor. (Only one janitor and he swept the floors and shoveled coal into the boiler). All other employees were either part-time i.e. bus drivers and cafeteria workers, or also taught part-time. The Commercial Arts teacher got an extra period off to type the superintendent's correspondence. The librarian taught classes part-time. Modern schools are filled with bureaucrats doing all kinds of unnecessary work that hasn't improved education a bit. A lot of that work, of course, is compliance with federal and state regulations which hamper, rather than help, the education process. The school was funded by local taxes with no federal or state aid.

Education needs to be de-centralized, not centralized more. Schools need to be smaller, not larger. If you want a national or state-wide program, it should be to fund vouchers for individuals who can force changes by withdrawing their students. Putting the money into the hands of more bureaucrats, public or private, isn't going to solve the problem.
 
I have a question. Does the U.S. falter in statistics due to the large immigration population? That's not a racist question and I'm not defending the U.S. out of some ass backward nationalism. It's just one of those things I've always wondered about--if it's taken into account.

Two points. (1) The per capita immigrant population of the USA is lower than that of many developed countries. (2) The performance of the USA in international education comparisons is not very different from most other developed countries: small differences are overblown and different methodologies give different results; For example PISA gives the USA quite a low Mathematics score, while TIMMS gives the USA a fairly high score.
 
(2) The performance of the USA in international education comparisons is not very different from most other developed countries: small differences are overblown and different methodologies give different results; For example PISA gives the USA quite a low Mathematics score, while TIMMS gives the USA a fairly high score.

The US doesn't do all that well on the TIMMS either. Compared to developed nations with anywhere near our per capita GDP, we are worse than most of them and we get worse with increasing grade level. This paper from the NCES has a table and there are 8 nations tested on the TIMMS at both 4th grade and 8th Grade in mathematics. At 4th grade we do alright and score better than 5 of the 8. By 8th grade on the same test, 3 of those 5 we were better than have caught up to us, and we didn't catch any of the 3 countries that were ahead of us. This means we are worse than 3, same as 3, and only better than 2. The same Table shows the PISA scores for those 8 countries. PISA is given at age 15, which means 10th grade for most students. By 10th grade we get worse still. 1 of the 2 countries we were better than is now equal with us, and 2 of the 3 we were equal to have now passed us. 1 country we were worse than we caught up to. The result is 5 countries ahead of us, 2 the same, and only Italy remains behind us (which had 55% of our GDP per capita).

The downward trend in TIMMS from 4th to 8th grade suggests that the even worse performance on PISA is at least partly due to the same trend of falling further behind across grades. Yes, the PISA and TIMMS differ in other ways than grade, but those differences largely support the idea that the US is not good at teaching the harder and deeper conceptual issues in math. The TIMMS is basically like a final exam for that years curriculum where the test items are identical to the kind of problems students practiced over and over that year. IOW, no application of knowledge is really needed, just short term memory of facts and a narrow set of procedures. PISA items are more about applying math concepts to real world problems. It requires actually understanding the concepts and principles in a way that allows seeing which principles apply to a novel situation rather than just memorizing how to do a specific narrow problem and repeating it over and over. So what the combined results of TIMMS and PISA suggest is that US students start out okay at basic memorization of math facts used in 4th grade curriculum but as the problems get harder and more conceptual knowledge and application is needed, they get worse.
 
(2) The performance of the USA in international education comparisons is not very different from most other developed countries: small differences are overblown and different methodologies give different results; For example PISA gives the USA quite a low Mathematics score, while TIMMS gives the USA a fairly high score.

The US doesn't do all that well on the TIMMS either. Compared to developed nations with anywhere near our per capita GDP, we are worse than most of them and we get worse with increasing grade level. This paper from the NCES has a table and there are 8 nations tested on the TIMMS at both 4th grade and 8th Grade in mathematics. At 4th grade we do alright and score better than 5 of the 8. By 8th grade on the same test, 3 of those 5 we were better than have caught up to us, and we didn't catch any of the 3 countries that were ahead of us. This means we are worse than 3, same as 3, and only better than 2. The same Table shows the PISA scores for those 8 countries. PISA is given at age 15, which means 10th grade for most students. By 10th grade we get worse still. 1 of the 2 countries we were better than is now equal with us, and 2 of the 3 we were equal to have now passed us. 1 country we were worse than we caught up to. The result is 5 countries ahead of us, 2 the same, and only Italy remains behind us (which had 55% of our GDP per capita).

The downward trend in TIMMS from 4th to 8th grade suggests that the even worse performance on PISA is at least partly due to the same trend of falling further behind across grades. Yes, the PISA and TIMMS differ in other ways than grade, but those differences largely support the idea that the US is not good at teaching the harder and deeper conceptual issues in math. The TIMMS is basically like a final exam for that years curriculum where the test items are identical to the kind of problems students practiced over and over that year. IOW, no application of knowledge is really needed, just short term memory of facts and a narrow set of procedures. PISA items are more about applying math concepts to real world problems. It requires actually understanding the concepts and principles in a way that allows seeing which principles apply to a novel situation rather than just memorizing how to do a specific narrow problem and repeating it over and over. So what the combined results of TIMMS and PISA suggest is that US students start out okay at basic memorization of math facts used in 4th grade curriculum but as the problems get harder and more conceptual knowledge and application is needed, they get worse.

In other countries, are students with serious learning disabilities mainstreamed and given the same standardized tests as is the case in the U.S.? I honestly do not know the answer.
 
To summarize, student achievement by children of recent immigrants varies widely and is broadly predicted by the country of origin. One reason for this, I assume would be that immigrants from some countries tend to hold much higher levels of academic achievement compared with immigrants from other countries. For example, immigrants from India or Pakistan are much more likely to hold advanced degrees than are Hmong immigrants or immigrants from Cambodia. Predictably, offspring of more well educated parents tend to have higher achievement in school.

I fully agree. Educational achievement is highly related to how the parents view education. The state does not have the power to overcome this, at least without being far more intrusive than we are willing to accept.

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I have a question. Does the U.S. falter in statistics due to the large immigration population? That's not a racist question and I'm not defending the U.S. out of some ass backward nationalism. It's just one of those things I've always wondered about--if it's taken into account.

Two points. (1) The per capita immigrant population of the USA is lower than that of many developed countries. (2) The performance of the USA in international education comparisons is not very different from most other developed countries: small differences are overblown and different methodologies give different results; For example PISA gives the USA quite a low Mathematics score, while TIMMS gives the USA a fairly high score.

Yeah. Many of the systems we are being compared to have vocational/college dual-track systems. Of course our single-track students fare poorly compared to the college-track students of a dual-track system--that proves nothing.
 
Better yet why don't we just not count the stupid kids, that would really send our average test scores soaring.

Oh, I just thought of a reason. It is because the test scores are meant to gauge how well we are teaching all of the children that we actually have in the country. It is not some international contest, the Olympics of testing.

Yes. It's good to not take things into consideration or be able to respond to a question within the context of a given topic. Well done.
 
In other countries, are students with serious learning disabilities mainstreamed and given the same standardized tests as is the case in the U.S.? I honestly do not know the answer.

I've wondered about that too. In my daughter's high school there are a number of kids who are simply incapable of benefiting from standard education. I don't know why their parents would want them there when they're not getting the kind of help they need. And I don't imagine the teachers are specially trained to deal with the kinds of issues we're talking about either.
 
I fully agree. Educational achievement is highly related to how the parents view education. The state does not have the power to overcome this, at least without being far more intrusive than we are willing to accept.

We do not agree. The predictive factor was the level of education achieved by the parent, not the value the parent assigned to education. For example, most individuals who immigrate from India, Pakistan or China (aside from children) hold advanced degrees. This is true in part because of U.S. immigration policy which encourages such highly educated individuals to immigrate and at the same time, throws up barriers to individuals from Pakistan, India or China (and other countries) who are less well educated. Of course, uneducated individuals are less likely to be able to afford the transportation costs, much less the other costs associated with immigration and are much less likely to find jobs waiting for them once they arrive.

Highly educated individuals are far better equipped to navigate the educational system to locate the best education for their children and to advocate effectively for their children. They are already proficient in English which makes navigating all aspects of U.S. society easier. They have the greatest mobility and are able to locate where there are excellent educational resources for their children. The achievement of their children reflects this.

On the other hand, consider the Hmong, who have been given preferential immigration. In their home culture, advanced formal education was rare; most immigrants are poorly educated by western standards. However, they highly value education for their children. But lacking formal education, it is much more difficult for this group to move to areas with the best schools or to navigate an educational system, particularly if their English skills are not well developed. It takes longer for the children of immigrants who arrive in the U.S. with little or no formal education to reach the same levels of achievement.

This isn't just true of immigrant families. In my small city, my kids attended public school with mostly white American kids but their fellow students came from across the entire socioeconomic spectrum: from kids who were, from time to time, homeless to kids whose parents are millionaires. The parents might be high school drop outs or hold Ph.D.s and teach at the local university. They might be doctors, lawyers, the mayor or city council members or they might be factory workers, bartenders, holding down several part time jobs with no benefits. Or they might be murderers, thieves, drug dealers, etc. Or run local foundations. So, the whole spectrum. When my kids were young, I spent a great deal of time volunteering in the local elementary schools (and later middle school) and worked with individual students and small groups. What I noticed is that there were plenty of kids whose parents barely graduated high school and struggled to keep the lights on who were very intelligent, very motivated to do well in school and whose parents clearly wanted them to do well in school, too. But the less well educated parents were easily overwhelmed whenever there was a small conflict or issue at school. The more well to do and better educated parents were much more effective at advocating for their kid to get into the more advanced classes, etc. although their kids were not more likely to actually belong in the more advanced classes. It was tough to watch. I spent a lot of time making sure that ALL kids got enrichment opportunities, not just the kids whose parents took them to the ballet or symphony or skiing on winter break.
 
I fully agree. Educational achievement is highly related to how the parents view education. The state does not have the power to overcome this, at least without being far more intrusive than we are willing to accept.

We do not agree. The predictive factor was the level of education achieved by the parent, not the value the parent assigned to education. For example, most individuals who immigrate from India, Pakistan or China (aside from children) hold advanced degrees. This is true in part because of U.S. immigration policy which encourages such highly educated individuals to immigrate and at the same time, throws up barriers to individuals from Pakistan, India or China (and other countries) who are less well educated. Of course, uneducated individuals are less likely to be able to afford the transportation costs, much less the other costs associated with immigration and are much less likely to find jobs waiting for them once they arrive.

In general those who value education highly for their kids value it for themselves and thus are well educated. Even when they can't get the degree themselves, though, they want it for their kids.
 
I fully agree. Educational achievement is highly related to how the parents view education. The state does not have the power to overcome this, at least without being far more intrusive than we are willing to accept.

We do not agree. The predictive factor was the level of education achieved by the parent, not the value the parent assigned to education. For example, most individuals who immigrate from India, Pakistan or China (aside from children) hold advanced degrees. This is true in part because of U.S. immigration policy which encourages such highly educated individuals to immigrate and at the same time, throws up barriers to individuals from Pakistan, India or China (and other countries) who are less well educated. Of course, uneducated individuals are less likely to be able to afford the transportation costs, much less the other costs associated with immigration and are much less likely to find jobs waiting for them once they arrive.

In general those who value education highly for their kids value it for themselves and thus are well educated. Even when they can't get the degree themselves, though, they want it for their kids.

Yes, they value it for their kids but may lack the resources to maximize their kids' educational opportunities.

It is worth mentioning that it is much easier to be highly educated if you come from a family which is highly educated or at least from a family which has the economic resources to ensure you have access to good education. You certainly are well informed enough about the world to be aware that there are plenty of places in the world--and in the U.S.--where access to education is largely dictated by economic circumstance.
 
It's also worth mentioning that it's much easier to be highly educated when you come from a place where the government is not continually slashing its spending on education.
 
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