How much longer has the American empire got?

[jonatha]

And the American slave traders had trouble with the Barbary Pirates.

Cite that the merchantmen captured by the Barbary Pirates were engaged in the slave trade.

This was North Africa and the Mediterranean, not the African west coast

 

[untermensche]

And the American slave traders had trouble with the Barbary Pirates.

Cite that the merchantmen captured by the Barbary Pirates were engaged in the slave trade.

This was North Africa and the Mediterranean, not the African west coast

There was no magical dividing line between the slave trade and US trade in the Mediterranean.

The slave trade and slavery is what drove the US economy.

But of course those awful Barbary Pirates, they put people in the midst of a system profiting from slavery into slavery.

 

[jonatha]

Cite that the merchantmen captured by the Barbary Pirates were engaged in the slave trade.

This was North Africa and the Mediterranean, not the African west coast

There was no magical dividing line between the slave trade and US trade in the Mediterranean.

Your original statement, for which I requested a citation, implies that the US ships seized by the Barbary Corsairs were slavers. Was that your intent?

If it was not, please say so. If it was, can you explain what you mean by your second statement?

 

[Axulus]

What empire?

Despite recently closing hundreds of bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, the United States still maintains nearly 800 military bases in more than 70 countries and territories abroad—from giant “Little Americas” to small radar facilities. Britain, France and Russia, by contrast, have about 30 foreign bases combined.

And these are just the bases our government allows us to know about. As it does things everyday all over the world it is too ashamed to tell us about.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321

Foreign bases is not what constitutes an empire. It is control and occupation of land, continuous expansion of borders and territory as a primary goal of the country, that constitutions an empire. Almost every one of those bases has the permission of the host country to be there.

 

[Axulus]

Actually, we want you to know about all of them. It just works better in the long run if you have to cruise conspiracy sites in order to find out about them...

Yeah, I know.

The destruction of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Nicaragua, Afghanistan and Iraq, and others using proxies.

That's just my lifetime.

No, no empire here. Nothing but a conspiracy theory.

This endless massive war. That's what everybody is doing.

What taxation from those territories does the US government collect? What power to create laws in those territories does the US government have? What troops are in those territories without permission of the host countries (South Vietnam gave us permission and asked for our help, by the way). Which of those territories has the US sent governors over to govern as a territory of the US?

These are all features of an empire that seem to be missing. Your hyperbolic claims of "empire" make your arguments easy to dismiss as full of hysterics.

 

[untermensche]

Yeah, I know.

The destruction of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Nicaragua, Afghanistan and Iraq, and others using proxies.

That's just my lifetime.

No, no empire here. Nothing but a conspiracy theory.

This endless massive war. That's what everybody is doing.

What taxation from those territories does the US government collect? What power to create laws in those territories does the US government have? What troops are in those territories without permission of the host countries (South Vietnam gave us permission and asked for our help, by the way). Which of those territories has the US sent governors over to govern as a territory of the US?

These are all features of an empire that seem to be missing. Your hyperbolic claims of "empire" make your arguments easy to dismiss as full of hysterics.

The taxes are the resources and human capital exploited.

The US does this by putting thugs into power and keeping them in power. Like the thugs in Vietnam who had no support from their people. Or the thugs in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations.

Like the thugs the US supported in Indonesia and the Philippines, and the list goes on forever.

Modern imperialism.

You use your military and intelligence capacities to put ruthless dictators into power.

Then these dictators allow you to freely exploit the resources and human capital in your empire.

Or in the case of China the dictators are already there, you just have to bribe them to allow you to exploit their nation.

 

[untermensche]

There was no magical dividing line between the slave trade and US trade in the Mediterranean.

Your original statement, for which I requested a citation, implies that the US ships seized by the Barbary Corsairs were slavers. Was that your intent?

If it was not, please say so. If it was, can you explain what you mean by your second statement?

They were part of a system fully entrenched in the slave trade, profiting from that system.

They were not part of some free loving system of human justice.

They were no better than the criminals who put them into slavery.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What empire?



And these are just the bases our government allows us to know about. As it does things everyday all over the world it is too ashamed to tell us about.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321

Foreign bases is not what constitutes an empire. It is control and occupation of land, continuous expansion of borders and territory as a primary goal of the country, that constitutions an empire. Almost every one of those bases has the permission of the host country to be there.

Could be argued as far as global influence of the US, it could possibly be part of the equation at least as far as the vague and useless OP question may (or may not) be asking. Russia doesn't have a base in Germany or the US... or Cuba for that matter. The US has bases all over the place. Even in fictional countries like Fredonia and Denmark!

 

[Deepak]

Yeah, I know.

The destruction of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Nicaragua, Afghanistan and Iraq, and others using proxies.

That's just my lifetime.

No, no empire here. Nothing but a conspiracy theory.

This endless massive war. That's what everybody is doing.

What taxation from those territories does the US government collect? What power to create laws in those territories does the US government have? What troops are in those territories without permission of the host countries (South Vietnam gave us permission and asked for our help, by the way). Which of those territories has the US sent governors over to govern as a territory of the US?

These are all features of an empire that seem to be missing. Your hyperbolic claims of "empire" make your arguments easy to dismiss as full of hysterics.

More to the point - how many are unwanted? I'm sure NATO and the UN would love it if we stopped subsidizing their budgets by saving them money on defense and peacekeeping bodies and treasure.

 

[untermensche]

More to the point - how many are unwanted?

By who?

The people of the world don't want them.

Many dictators or people involved in authoritarian systems of exploitation do.

 

[dismal]

There was no magical dividing line between the slave trade and US trade in the Mediterranean.

The slave trade and slavery is what drove the US economy.

Historical fact: a very small percentage of the African slave trade involved the US. 3 to 5%, roughly, and most of that when it was technically still England.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimag...atabase-about-the-trans-atlantic-slave-trade/

 

[untermensche]

There was no magical dividing line between the slave trade and US trade in the Mediterranean.

The slave trade and slavery is what drove the US economy.

Historical fact: a very small percentage of the African slave trade involved the US. 3 to 5%, roughly, and most of that when it was technically still England.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimag...atabase-about-the-trans-atlantic-slave-trade/

The US economy was built around slavery.

In 1860 slaves were 12.6% of the total population.

 

[Bronzeage]

Your original statement, for which I requested a citation, implies that the US ships seized by the Barbary Corsairs were slavers. Was that your intent?

If it was not, please say so. If it was, can you explain what you mean by your second statement?

They were part of a system fully entrenched in the slave trade, profiting from that system.

They were not part of some free loving system of human justice.

They were no better than the criminals who put them into slavery.

International Slave trade was outlawed by the United States in 1807. The perennial battles with the Pirate city states of the Mediterranean Sea lasted from 1801 til 1829. If the US Navy were sent to protect slave ships, it would have been for a very short period of time.

 

[untermensche]

They were part of a system fully entrenched in the slave trade, profiting from that system.

They were not part of some free loving system of human justice.

They were no better than the criminals who put them into slavery.

International Slave trade was outlawed by the United States in 1807. The perennial battles with the Pirate city states of the Mediterranean Sea lasted from 1801 til 1829. If the US Navy were sent to protect slave ships, it would have been for a very short period of time.

At the outskirts of the American/British system were the slave traders.

At the outskirts of the Ottoman Empire were the Barbary Pirates.

In Africa, mostly young men were enslaved by one system. In the Mediterranean, other, just as innocent young men, were enslaved by another.

 

[Bronzeage]

International Slave trade was outlawed by the United States in 1807. The perennial battles with the Pirate city states of the Mediterranean Sea lasted from 1801 til 1829. If the US Navy were sent to protect slave ships, it would have been for a very short period of time.

At the outskirts of the American/British system were the slave traders.

At the outskirts of the Ottoman Empire were the Barbary Pirates.

In Africa, mostly young men were enslaved by one system. In the Mediterranean, other, just as innocent young men, were enslaved by another.

I'm sure you have point, in there somewhere.

The population growth of enslaved people in the US made importation of slaves more trouble than it was worth. The banning of the slave trade had more to do with reinforcing South Carolina's position as a slave producing state, than any humanitarian concerns. We really didn't need trans-Atlantic slavers, because we were doing perfectly well, with our domestic market.

 

[Deepak]

More to the point - how many are unwanted?

By who?

The people of the world don't want them.

Many dictators or people involved in authoritarian systems of exploitation do.

By whom

 

[untermensche]

At the outskirts of the American/British system were the slave traders.

At the outskirts of the Ottoman Empire were the Barbary Pirates.

In Africa, mostly young men were enslaved by one system. In the Mediterranean, other, just as innocent young men, were enslaved by another.

I'm sure you have point, in there somewhere.

The population growth of enslaved people in the US made importation of slaves more trouble than it was worth. The banning of the slave trade had more to do with reinforcing South Carolina's position as a slave producing state, than any humanitarian concerns. We really didn't need trans-Atlantic slavers, because we were doing perfectly well, with our domestic market.

The point is that the Barbary Pirates were not an anomaly.

By restricting the importation of slaves, those with slave both had more power and their slaves were worth more.

Slave systems reward the brutal and inhumane.

And slavery only ends when technology and widespread desperation makes wage slavery cheaper.

The slave owner actually had to care about the well being of the slave.

The wage slaver doesn't have to care at all. If the slave dies or is injured or resists brutal conditions he just gets another and is out nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

By who?

The people of the world don't want them.

Many dictators or people involved in authoritarian systems of exploitation do.

By whom

You are a well trained poodle. Good boy!

Can you answer the question?

Take Okinawa for instance. The people there have wanted the US out for decades.

That doesn't mean a thing.

Empire.

 

[dismal]

Historical fact: a very small percentage of the African slave trade involved the US. 3 to 5%, roughly, and most of that when it was technically still England.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimag...atabase-about-the-trans-atlantic-slave-trade/

The US economy was built around slavery.

In 1860 slaves were 12.6% of the total population.

I'm not sure what these arguments have to do with the point that the US was a small portion of the international slave trade.

 

[untermensche]

The US economy was built around slavery.

In 1860 slaves were 12.6% of the total population.

I'm not sure what these arguments have to do with the point that the US was a small portion of the international slave trade.

What does being a small portion of the slave trade have to do with having an economy with a foundation of slavery?

It is slavery that allowed the US, and other nations, to grow rich. It provided cheap cotton, a major commodity for trade.

The US had land and it could put those slaves to good use to create wealth. It didn't have to rely on the slave trade across the ocean for it's economy. It just used the wealth from commodities like cotton and tobacco and sugar to buy those slaves.

 

[dismal]

I'm not sure what these arguments have to do with the point that the US was a small portion of the international slave trade.

What does being a small portion of the slave trade have to do with having an economy with a foundation of slavery?

It is slavery that allowed the US, and other nations, to grow rich. It provided cheap cotton, a major commodity for trade.

The US had land and it could put those slaves to good use to create wealth. It didn't have to rely on the slave trade across the ocean for it's economy. It just used the wealth from commodities like cotton and tobacco and sugar to buy those slaves.

Well if having slaves was the key to prosperity all those other countries that had even more slaves must be even richer.

Haiti, Jamaica. Places like that.