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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

The hunt for superyachts of sanctioned Russian oligarchs - BBC News
Two superyachts linked to Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich have docked in Turkey, beyond the reach of UK and EU sanctions.

Each of the vessels cost more than $500m and are among a number tracked by Lloyd's List Intelligence. The shipping data experts have been monitoring on-board tracking devices and have shared this information exclusively with the BBC, enabling the journeys of these and other vessels linked to sanctioned Russians to be plotted.

A boatload of young Ukrainians tried to stop the superyacht MY Solaris docking in Bodrum in Turkey. The other Abramovich-linked yacht Eclipse sailed to Marmaris.

The UK, US and EU have said they will target superyachts, and at least eight have been seized so far. More remain at large - some are on the move, others are moored in places that are currently safe from sanctions, including the Maldives.
"Protesters from a junior sailing team try to prevent MY Solaris docking" - that yacht was huge in comparable to the protesters' boat, comparable in size to a typical motorboat.
 
And of course like so many ignorant people anti Russian fear mongers like the Ukrainian will try and use their victim mentality to force others to support their power grabbing attempt

Does anyone know what AGFTA is talking about? Ukraine was threatening to grab power from Russia?

Russia does not need competence .. it just needs to push two little buttons to utterly destroy the Ukraine and everything in it… duh…

"Duh" is right.

Isolation for what? Swatting a bothersome trouble making gnat? Russia then leaves the uncontrolled region for peaceful settlers to take over.

First they were a "power-grabbing" threat; now just a bothersome gnat? One is reminded of Trumpist propagandists, who flip the spin daily hoping nobody notices.

I've always wondered how a Putinist too stupid to trawl the Internet on behalf of Trump or Alex Jones would make a living. It appears that AGFTA — his tongue firmly planted in cheek — is amusing us by concocting a demonstration. Kudos!
 
The MY Solaris was huge compared to the protesters' boat - one might almost say titanic.

Length 139 m, Beam 26 m, Draft 5.8 m, Gross Tonnage 11247, Summer Deadweight Tons 2060, what looks like 6 or 7 above-water decks.

By comparison, the protesters' boat was about 3 meters long, using dimensions of readily-available inflatable boats. That length is only 1/9 the width of that yacht.

It is linked to Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich, its estimated cost was $600 million, it has a crew up to 60, and it can accommodate up to 30 guests. It has a swimming pool and a helipad.
 
I don't know if Ukraine really needs to join Nato. They are kicking Russia's ass right now!
I admit they are holding their own. How well would they be doing without all the military hardware? Look at how much damage to their country they have sustained. Membership in NATO would have prevented the invasion and all the damage. We all know that and should admit our mistake. We fucked up. Time to learn and move on.

Not joining NATO is exactly what the Pig wants to happen. He'll be back unless he sees the price is too high. You've got to remember this isn't about what Russia wants, they are fine with Ukraine being whatever Ukraine wants to be. This is about the Pig and the piglets.
Do you think this is a war!? Warning people before wiping out their entire neighborhood?
This is a cat playing with a mouse he can eat on a whim.

This is a geriatric cat who discovered the mouse was a capybara. Moscow is raining crap on neighborhoods because it's not capable of doing anything more.

And look at the reliability (lack thereof) of Russian weapons. What happens if he tosses a nuke at Ukraine and it doesn't go boom?
Right even if they miss with one nuke.. they have another thousand at the reasdy. You saw what a nuclear accident could do at Chernobyl.. a deliberate attack would do far more damage…making the Ukraine an indefensible uninhabited wasteland but perfect for access to the Black Sea.
Why do you keep repeating this claim that Ukraine was trying to limit Russian access to the black sea?
 
Zelensky is talking about accepting neutrality. If this were to happen the Pig or his successor - accepting that Russia doesn't adopt democratic standards - will eventually invade again. Such an agreement would strike me as being the same as NATO membership because the west would come to Ukraine's aid. The only difference would be that NATO troops and weaponry would not be stationed in Ukraine when Russia invaded again.

Of course the devil is in the details and there may be clauses about many things. Knowing that Russia will eventually invade again pretty much makes such an agreement worthless.
 
He’s standing on a chair with a noose around his neck.
Who’ll get to kick it out?

I had been wondering about Belarus since reading of the Russian assault on Kyiv not being supplied by Belarusian rail.
The above article describes various scenarios. Either way, it don’t look good for Lukashenka.
In times of crisis, people tend to rally around the flag. I don't see how people of Belarus could get rid of Lukashenka now, when they couldn't do it before.
 
Zelensky is talking about accepting neutrality. If this were to happen the Pig or his successor - accepting that Russia doesn't adopt democratic standards - will eventually invade again. Such an agreement would strike me as being the same as NATO membership because the west would come to Ukraine's aid. The only difference would be that NATO troops and weaponry would not be stationed in Ukraine when Russia invaded again.

Of course the devil is in the details and there may be clauses about many things. Knowing that Russia will eventually invade again pretty much makes such an agreement worthless.
If neutrality only means no NATO membership, it doesn't compromise Ukraine's ability to defend itself. It can still arm itself to the teeth against any conventional attack, and it's unlikely that Russia would use nuclear weapons in the next war, if it doesn't do it in this one (the jury's still out on that though).

Russia might demand other concessions though, like not joining EU, or limit the kind of conventional weapons Ukraine can have. Like you said, the devil is in the details. But Ukraine can always reject poison pills like that.

I'm much more concerned about Zelensky's recent statement that Ukraine has to give up some land to avoid WW3. This seems to contradict his other promises about not compromising Ukraine's territorial integrity. If he cuts a deal that gives Mariupol and other cities to Russia, after people died defending those territories, how are Ukrainians going to take it?
 
Zelensky is talking about accepting neutrality. If this were to happen the Pig or his successor - accepting that Russia doesn't adopt democratic standards - will eventually invade again. Such an agreement would strike me as being the same as NATO membership because the west would come to Ukraine's aid. The only difference would be that NATO troops and weaponry would not be stationed in Ukraine when Russia invaded again.

Of course the devil is in the details and there may be clauses about many things. Knowing that Russia will eventually invade again pretty much makes such an agreement worthless.
If neutrality only means no NATO membership, it doesn't compromise Ukraine's ability to defend itself. It can still arm itself to the teeth against any conventional attack, and it's unlikely that Russia would use nuclear weapons in the next war, if it doesn't do it in this one (the jury's still out on that though).

Russia might demand other concessions though, like not joining EU, or limit the kind of conventional weapons Ukraine can have. Like you said, the devil is in the details. But Ukraine can always reject poison pills like that.

I'm much more concerned about Zelensky's recent statement that Ukraine has to give up some land to avoid WW3. This seems to contradict his other promises about not compromising Ukraine's territorial integrity. If he cuts a deal that gives Mariupol and other cities to Russia, after people died defending those territories, how are Ukrainians going to take it?
Well, Ukraine would be crazy to depend on the goodwill of Russia living up to any treaty. I'd trust Putin about as far as I could throw dog shit in a rainstorm. It makes sense that they give up NATO. But arm themselves to the hilt to dis-encourage future Russian "operations". Russia has scared the other eastern European non-Nato countries. I could see in the future Ukraine teaming up with Finland, Sweden, and other countries just to protect themselves.

I've heard that Zelensky's idea is to give up on Crimeria. Then allow the Donbas to decide for themselves their future. I think that this is a brilliant plan.
 
Zelensky is talking about accepting neutrality. If this were to happen the Pig or his successor - accepting that Russia doesn't adopt democratic standards - will eventually invade again. Such an agreement would strike me as being the same as NATO membership because the west would come to Ukraine's aid. The only difference would be that NATO troops and weaponry would not be stationed in Ukraine when Russia invaded again.

Of course the devil is in the details and there may be clauses about many things. Knowing that Russia will eventually invade again pretty much makes such an agreement worthless.
If neutrality only means no NATO membership, it doesn't compromise Ukraine's ability to defend itself. It can still arm itself to the teeth against any conventional attack, and it's unlikely that Russia would use nuclear weapons in the next war, if it doesn't do it in this one (the jury's still out on that though).

Russia might demand other concessions though, like not joining EU, or limit the kind of conventional weapons Ukraine can have. Like you said, the devil is in the details. But Ukraine can always reject poison pills like that.

I'm much more concerned about Zelensky's recent statement that Ukraine has to give up some land to avoid WW3. This seems to contradict his other promises about not compromising Ukraine's territorial integrity. If he cuts a deal that gives Mariupol and other cities to Russia, after people died defending those territories, how are Ukrainians going to take it?
Well, Ukraine would be crazy to depend on the goodwill of Russia living up to any treaty. I'd trust Putin about as far as I could throw dog shit in a rainstorm. It makes sense that they give up NATO. But arm themselves to the hilt to dis-encourage future Russian "operations". Russia has scared the other eastern European non-Nato countries. I could see in the future Ukraine teaming up with Finland, Sweden, and other countries just to protect themselves.

I've heard that Zelensky's idea is to give up on Crimeria. Then allow the Donbas to decide for themselves their future. I think that this is a brilliant plan.
I believe this would be in violation of Ukraine’s constitution. It requires the vote of the nation.
 
He’s standing on a chair with a noose around his neck.
Who’ll get to kick it out?

I had been wondering about Belarus since reading of the Russian assault on Kyiv not being supplied by Belarusian rail.
The above article describes various scenarios. Either way, it don’t look good for Lukashenka.
In times of crisis, people tend to rally around the flag. I don't see how people of Belarus could get rid of Lukashenka now, when they couldn't do it before.
Rallying around the flag in Belarus is not rallying around Lukashenka. His support is abysmal compared to Putin’s. It’s a thin line of security forces between him and demise. As goes Russia’s economy so goes Belarus’. Think those security forces are going to remain loyal when they are wondering where their next paycheck is coming from?
 
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I've heard that Zelensky's idea is to give up on Crimeria. Then allow the Donbas to decide for themselves their future. I think that this is a brilliant plan.
I might let Crimea go. It was Russian originally anyway. Elsewhere I would not give an inch, not even Donbas.
 
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Jesus Christ. If the below link is correct, that the Ukranian negotiators were poisoned, then we should double all efforts to help Ukraine. If this is true, this demonstrates that Putin is an animal and is in no way any near serious about negotiations and cannot be trusted:


Let's hope that the above is a false story.
 
Jesus Christ. If the below link is correct, that the Ukranian negotiators were poisoned, then we should double all efforts to help Ukraine. If this is true, this demonstrates that Putin is an animal and is in no way any near serious about negotiations and cannot be trusted:


Let's hope that the above is a false story.
That does not surprise me and should not surprise anyone even remotely familiar with the Pig.
 
I might let Crimea go. It was Russian originally anyway. Elsewhere I would not give an inch, not even Donbas.
But if the people there don’t want to be part of Ukraine, why force them? That just guarantees future conflict.
Actually, Crimea was part of the Ottoman Empire, before it was gulped up by the Russian Empire. Then it became an autonomous republic in the Soviet Union, not part of Russia. Then Stalin deported or murdered the Tatar population and made it part of Russia for a few years. Then Nikita Khrushchev made it part of Ukraine, because land bridge. So, not originally Russian. Now, back in the Russian Empire, who is to determine what Crimea wants to do? They can have all the referendums they want, but who counts the votes?
 
I might let Crimea go. It was Russian originally anyway. Elsewhere I would not give an inch, not even Donbas.
But if the people there don’t want to be part of Ukraine, why force them? That just guarantees future conflict.
Actually, Crimea was part of the Ottoman Empire, before it was gulped up by the Russian Empire. Then it became an autonomous republic in the Soviet Union, not part of Russia. Then Stalin deported or murdered the Tatar population and made it part of Russia for a few years. Then Nikita Khrushchev made it part of Ukraine, because land bridge. So, not originally Russian. Now, back in the Russian Empire, who is to determine what Crimea wants to do? They can have all the referendums they want, but who counts the votes?
My understanding is Crimea is predominantly Russian. If there was a significant population of Ukrainians there who wanted nationhood with Ukraine, we would have seen that by now. So far, nothing. Crimea is mostly quite in this war.
 
I might let Crimea go. It was Russian originally anyway. Elsewhere I would not give an inch, not even Donbas.
But if the people there don’t want to be part of Ukraine, why force them? That just guarantees future conflict.
Actually, Crimea was part of the Ottoman Empire, before it was gulped up by the Russian Empire. Then it became an autonomous republic in the Soviet Union, not part of Russia. Then Stalin deported or murdered the Tatar population and made it part of Russia for a few years. Then Nikita Khrushchev made it part of Ukraine, because land bridge. So, not originally Russian. Now, back in the Russian Empire, who is to determine what Crimea wants to do? They can have all the referendums they want, but who counts the votes?
My understanding is Crimea is predominantly Russian. If there was a significant population of Ukrainians there who wanted nationhood with Ukraine, we would have seen that by now. So far, nothing. Crimea is mostly quite in this war.
You misspelled "occupied".
 
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