How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

 

[barbos]

"NATO had become a purely geopolitical project aimed at taking over territories orphaned by the collapse of the Warsaw Treaty Organization and the Soviet Union."

-Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov




-Former Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski

The usual Lavrov - succinct. He should be NATO secretary, he understands the mission and express himself better than the current one.

 

[SLD]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

And so this justification for an invasion? Seriously, I get your points, but you’ve yet to justify a war.

 

[barbos]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

And so this justification for an invasion? Seriously, I get your points, but you’ve yet to justify a war.

This is an explanation for the present state of the affairs where "ukrainian" children want to kill russians.
But if you ask me, authors of these books should be brought to justice.

 

[SLD]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

And so this justification for an invasion? Seriously, I get your points, but you’ve yet to justify a war.

This is an explanation for the present state of the affairs where "ukrainian" children want to kill russians.
But if you ask me, authors of these books should be brought to justice.

So war is the solution?

 

[barbos]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

 

[Jarhyn]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

Troops building up on a border is not called "education", generally. It's called "prelude to an attack". It seems rather bad to take "education" a rather complicated word with a root, and then use it to mean "threat".

I don't want that kind of "education" regardless.

 

[barbos]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

Troops building up on a border is not called "education", generally. It's called "prelude to an attack". It seems rather bad to take "education" a rather complicated word with a root, and then use it to mean "threat".

Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.

I don't want that kind of "education" regardless.

I see you prefer nazi propaganda.

 

[Jarhyn]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

Troops building up on a border is not called "education", generally. It's called "prelude to an attack". It seems rather bad to take "education" a rather complicated word with a root, and then use it to mean "threat".

I don't want that kind of "education" regardless.

Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.

And when they do it, it's not "education". It's "prelude to attack", and even "threat".

As I said, quit offering such "education", because I do not want it.

It's also not "precautionary measures". It's active measures. Of threat.

 

[barbos]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

Troops building up on a border is not called "education", generally. It's called "prelude to an attack". It seems rather bad to take "education" a rather complicated word with a root, and then use it to mean "threat".

I don't want that kind of "education" regardless.

Russia can do whatever it wants within its own borders, including precautionary measures against fascist regime in Ukraine.

And when they do it, it's not "education". It's "prelude to attack", and even "threat".

As I said, quit offering such "education", because I do not want it.

It's also not "precautionary measures". It's active measures. Of threat.

If only you could put your fervor into something good. Like demanding explanation from Ukrainian Junta. Start with this books, then ask about investigation of Odessa massacre. Then proceed to sniper attack during coup.
Oh wait, you have never heard about it. That's right, all you hear is russian troops this russian troops that.

 

[barbos]

Ukrainian piece of shit historian takes WW2 photo of Russian children in finnish concentration camp, accurately cuts part of the photo with a board with finnish warning in it leaving only the part in russian, calls it ukrainian children in russian concentration camp and puts it in a schoolbook.
What do you call that? Education you DO want?
No wonder 120% of ukrainians want to join NATO

 

[barbos]

«Пророссийские сепаратисты». Вашингтон наказал украинцев за связь с Москвой - Газета.Ru

Новые ограничительные меры США нацелены на то, чтобы выявить, подорвать и разоблачить попытки «продолжающейся дестабилизирующей деятельности России на Украине», говорится в сообщении американского Минфина. В черный список на этот раз вошли четверо украинцев.

www.gazeta.ru

Meanwhile US started sanctioning members of ..... ukrainian parliament, for ... being in opposition to current regime in Ukraine. If only US could do the same with their own parliamentarians

 

[Copernicus]

Since barbos has been spouting a lot of mythology about history, particularly Ukrainian history, it's worth knowing where that nonsense came from. The following is an interesting article about the myth that Ukraine is "not a real country".

“There is no Ukraine”: Fact-Checking the Kremlin’s Version of Ukrainian History​

The notion that Ukraine is not a country, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of Russian leadership. Competing interpretations of history have turned into a key ingredient of the deepening dispute between Russia and the West and a subject that Putin in particular appears to feel unusually passionate about. In this article, Dr Björn Alexander Duben explores the question, is it historically accurate to claim has never truly been a nation or state in its own right?

Basically, Dr. Duben argues that the mythology about Ukraine's past was originally crafted by a man called  Vladislav Yuryevich Surkov aka the "Grey Cardinal". (See also this BBC Radio 4 expose on Surkov entitle Meet the most powerful man you’ve never heard of.) Surkov was either fired or quit in February, 2019, but he remains involved in Ukraine affairs. You will find echoes of his claims about Ukraine not being a "real country" not just in Putin's official rhetoric, but in a number of barbos's posts in this forum and this thread about Russian policy towards Ukraine. For example, barbos has falsely claimed that Ukrainian is not really a bona fide language, although he obviously has no knowledge of the Ukrainian language itself. Generally speaking, this is about the ideas that have helped shape general attitudes and opinions that many, if not most Russians, have today towards Ukraine. Even Donald Trump has parroted some of this nonsense, which he apparently got from Putin.

For more than twenty years, Vladislav Surkov was a known quantity in Vladimir Putin’s Kremlin. Dubbed the ‘Grey Cardinal’ and the Kremlin’s main ideologist, Surkov is commonly regarded as the mastermind of Putin’s Ukraine policy which plunged Moscow into open conflict with the West. By late February 2020, however, he had apparently fallen from grace and was unexpectedly sacked from his position as personal advisor to the president. Surkov has been prone to making frank, off-the-cuff public remarks that stand in marked contrast to the omertà practiced by most of Putin’s inner circle, offering rare glimpses into what policymakers in the Kremlin appear to be thinking. True to form, within days of his dismissal he stirred up fresh controversy by publicly questioning the existence of Ukrainian statehood. In an interview published on 26 February, Surkov stated that “there is no Ukraine. There is Ukrainian-ness. That is, a specific disorder of the mind. An astonishing enthusiasm for ethnography, driven to the extreme.” Surkov went on to claim that Ukraine is “a muddle instead of a state. […] But there is no nation. There is only a brochure, ‘The Self-Styled Ukraine’, but there is no Ukraine.”

“Ukraine is not even a state”

Surkov is not the first Russian official to make such a claim. The notion that Ukraine is not a country in its own right, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of many in the Russian leadership. Already long before the Ukraine crisis, at an April 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Vladimir Putin reportedly claimed that “Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? A part of its territory is [in] Eastern Europe, but a[nother] part, a considerable one, was a gift from us!” In his March 18, 2014 speech marking the annexation of Crimea, Putin declared that Russians and Ukrainians “are one people. Kiev is the mother of Russian cities. Ancient Rus’ is our common source and we cannot live without each other.” Since then, Putin has repeated similar claims on many occasions. As recently as February 2020, he once again stated in an interview that Ukrainians and Russians “are one and the same people”, and he insinuated that Ukrainian national identity had emerged as a product of foreign interference. Similarly, Russia’s then-Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev told a perplexed apparatchik in April 2016 that there has been “no state” in Ukraine, neither before nor after the 2014 crisis.

Such slogans and insinuations might be little more than a rhetorical smokescreen concealing a pursuit of sober, hard-nosed realpolitik. But there is much to suggest that these beliefs are in fact informing policymaking at the highest levels of power. What’s more, they appear to have rubbed off on other world leaders as well. In an autumn 2017 briefing, US President Donald Trump reportedly exclaimed that Ukraine “wasn’t a ‘real country,’ that it had always been a part of Russia”.

See the article for a better picture of the actual history of Ukraine, instead of the myths that barbos is purveying here.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

 

[skepticalbip]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

 

[Jarhyn]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

So, joining an organization with commitments to respect borders and sovereignty might also be a bit out of Russia's wheelhouse.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

Fair point. However, we're not sending any troops into Ukraine. We're only sending defensive weapons and moral support! We're lining up substantial economic sanctions against Russia, but I don't consider that to be a police action. You wouldn't consider Liechtenstein and Norway (both recently joined to group of countries that will employ economic sanctions) the world's police would you?

I'm also against us being the world's police. However, IMO, I really think that the civilized world needs to come to together to commonly promote that it isn't acceptable for one country to take over another when there is a dispute. Every country in the world has disputes with their neighbors. The US has disputes with Canada, for example, all the time. Fishing disputes, oil drilling, water disputes and etc. And a lot of them are nasty. But we negotiate in good faith and work it out. Putin is upset that Crimea is running out of water. Fine, I get it. Why not figure out a solution. Negotiate with Ukraine. Yea, it won't be easy. They stole their land. I think that the civilized world needs to come together to figure out methods to peacefully force countries to not invade their neighbors. All countries have a right to sovereignty. We should encourage all countries to respect borders. This should apply to Russia, Israel, China, the US, and even Liechtenstein.

 

[Jayjay]

Can NATO and Europe Count on Germany Against Russia?

If Russia attacks Ukraine, the Western allies must respond in unison. Let’s hope Germany doesn’t go wobbly.

www.bloomberg.com

Deluded American with a german last (and first I think as well) name is unhappy about german reactance to harrras Russia with the same vigor US has.

This dumbass thinks that Nord Stream is not finished.
Also dumbass forgot about "Fuck the EU" incident.

Which dumbass? The columnist obviously knows Nord Stream 2 is finished and only waiting for certification, because he says so. The other guy who's twitter satire he quotes may or may not, but in any case it's hardly the point.

Only in a Russian propaganda-infested mind is an American diplomat using the F-word somehow supposed to be a worse "incident" than the fact that Russian intelligence services are apparently listening on said diplomat's calls. If the FSB or GRU is listening to Americans in Ukraine, they're sure as hell listening to Germans as well.

 

[skepticalbip]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

Fair point. However, we're not sending any troops into Ukraine. We're only sending defensive weapons and moral support! We're lining up substantial economic sanctions against Russia, but I don't consider that to be a police action. You wouldn't consider Liechtenstein and Norway (both recently joined to group of countries that will employ economic sanctions) the world's police would you?

The U.S. isn't sending ground troops or air support... yet. The U.S. involvement in foreign disputes has historically not started with troops but with aid and advice. This has been followed with "advisors" sent in, followed by some defense units to protect the "advisors", eventually combat units because the "advisors" and "defense units" were insufficient to accomplish whatever goal had been set.

It looks like pretty much a repeat here. Aid and military equipment has been sent. My experience with the military is that covert "advisors" accompany weapons shipments.

My question is why should the U.S. be this involved and not the E.U.?

I'm also against us being the world's police. However, IMO, I really think that the civilized world needs to come to together to commonly promote that it isn't acceptable for one country to take over another when there is a dispute. Every country in the world has disputes with their neighbors. The US has disputes with Canada, for example, all the time. Fishing disputes, oil drilling, water disputes and etc. And a lot of them are nasty. But we negotiate in good faith and work it out. Putin is upset that Crimea is running out of water. Fine, I get it. Why not figure out a solution. Negotiate with Ukraine. Yea, it won't be easy. They stole their land. I think that the civilized world needs to come together to figure out methods to peacefully force countries to not invade their neighbors. All countries have a right to sovereignty. We should encourage all countries to respect borders. This should apply to Russia, Israel, China, the US, and even Liechtenstein.

Hey, I am all for diplomatic discussions, even sanctions. But weapon shipments is something that should be done by countries more at risk in the long run like the E.U.

 

[barbos]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.