How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

Your failure to produce results is noted.

Failure is yours.

 

[barbos]

Please note, that Georgia asked to be "occupied" by Russian Empire long time ago.
otherwise there would be no Georgia today, just a Turkish province with Turks inside.
During Soviet time it was heaven on earth (by russian standards).
Georgia was the largest recipients of money from Russian Federation (maybe outside of Baltic states), and produced almost nothing of real value. Great place, but they were living on Russia's expense. Jughashvili was a Georgian, in case you did not know

So these people have absolutely no reason to hate Russia, except that they were left without russian money after Soviet Union dissolved and quickly descended into poverty.

 

[barbos]

Saakashvili, a master of political intrigue, very quickly seized the initiative, after which hysterically anti-Russian slogans began to appear. Their success is explained, among other things, by the fact that in recent years the anti-Russian trend in Georgia has been in vogue. Saakashvili was able to achieve this, including with the support of the United States, which directly finances such activities, including through numerous non-governmental organizations operating in Georgia, through very serious TV channels, through two factions in parliament. All these forces in recent years have built a situation when it became fashionable to be anti-Russian and pro-Western. And talking about rapprochement with Russia in the understanding of these people is a regression, only those who want almost the restoration of the USSR are in favor of this.

That's not me talking. That's Saakashvili right hand talking.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'm an ethnic Slav just like my Russian brothers. The world owes me because I've been brutalized by neighboring tribes over the millennia. Even the word "slave" derives directly from my ethnicity owing to how unjustly I and my fellows have been treated. The world owes me! The world owes me! The world owes me! The world owes me!

Or I could just grow up and act like a mature adult, not a petulant child.

 

[barbos]

I agree, ukrainian slavs, along with Polish, Czech and balto-slavs should grow up and start behaving like adults. And americans, you too.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I agree, ukrainian slavs, along with Polish, Czech and balto-slavs should grow up and start behaving like adults. And americans, you too.

Don't forget the Putinistas.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I agree, ukrainian slavs, along with Polish, Czech and balto-slavs should grow up and start behaving like adults. And americans, you too.

Well, it appears to me that Putin is finally moderating and listening to reason. It might just be a stalling technique as he doesn't want to invade during the Olympics (not sporty). But it seems sincere that the world has a chance of avoiding this war. The west has signaled that it's willing to Russia a way to verify that there aren't offensive cruise missiles at sensitive NATO missile bases in Romania and Poland. Clearly the efforts to enhance Ukraine's defensive capabilities is paying off. The West needs to find a way to rapidly diversify away from Russian gas if Putin invades. But there is some positive news today.

MSN

.

 

[ZiprHead]

very quickly seized the initiative, after which hysterically anti-Russian slogans began to appear. Their success is explained, among other things, by the fact that in recent years the anti-Russian trend in Georgia has been in vogue.

This sounds to me like Saakashvili attached himself to a trend already in vogue. There isn't a politician alive who isn't willing to hop in front of a parade not of their own making.

You know something the US didn't do? Invade Georgia.

 

[lpetrich]

Vlagyiszlav Makszimov on Twitter: "After making EU member Hungary's PM Orbán stand there in silence for almost ten minutes while he delivered his messages on @NATO and Russia's security guarantee demands, this is how Putin closed the conference.

No comments needed. (vid link)" / Twitter
Putin waved in his direction, departed, and Orbán followed him.

Colin Woodard on Twitter: "Like a dog on a leash." / Twitter

Vlagyiszlav Makszimov on Twitter: ""I will be pleased to inform you about how this process is developing" (я с удовольствием проинформирую тебя о том, как развивается этот процесс), #Putin tells #Orbán about 's #NATO demands.

Hm, that's a strange formulation, considering is a @NATO state. Presser delayed. (pic link)" / Twitter

In Moscow, Orbán offers ‘Hungarian model’, blasts idea of sanctions – EURACTIV.com

"Amid simmering tensions between the West and Russia, after nearly five hours of talks in the Russian capital on Tuesday (1 February), the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán blasted the ineffectiveness of the EU’s punitive sanctions on Moscow and hailed his successful relations with Russian President Vladimir Putin."

“What we can offer is the Hungarian model,” he said, pointing out that Hungary, an EU and NATO member, has “excellent relations with Russia.”

“It is possible, there are examples of it, Hungary’s of all countries. It is true that this requires mutual respect,” he added.

Complete with looking the other way at Russia's takeover of Crimea and its troops on Ukraine's border.

 

[barbos]

very quickly seized the initiative, after which hysterically anti-Russian slogans began to appear. Their success is explained, among other things, by the fact that in recent years the anti-Russian trend in Georgia has been in vogue.

This sounds to me like Saakashvili attached himself to a trend already in vogue. There isn't a politician alive who isn't willing to hop in front of a parade not of their own making.

You know something the US didn't do? Invade Georgia.

Who do you think that vogue created?
Saakashvili came to power in 2004 moreless. Left after 2013 I think.
Events described are in 2019

Are you satisfied with results?

 

[ZiprHead]

very quickly seized the initiative, after which hysterically anti-Russian slogans began to appear. Their success is explained, among other things, by the fact that in recent years the anti-Russian trend in Georgia has been in vogue.

This sounds to me like Saakashvili attached himself to a trend already in vogue. There isn't a politician alive who isn't willing to hop in front of a parade not of their own making.

You know something the US didn't do? Invade Georgia.

Who do you think that vogue created?
Saakashvili came to power in 2004 moreless. Left after 2013 I think.
Events described are in 2019

Are you satisfied with results?

I'm going by the words stated in your quote.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Vlagyiszlav Makszimov on Twitter: "After making EU member Hungary's PM Orbán stand there in silence for almost ten minutes while he delivered his messages on @NATO and Russia's security guarantee demands, this is how Putin closed the conference.
No comments needed. (vid link)" / Twitter
Putin waved in his direction, departed, and Orbán followed him.

Colin Woodard on Twitter: "Like a dog on a leash." / Twitter

Vlagyiszlav Makszimov on Twitter: ""I will be pleased to inform you about how this process is developing" (я с удовольствием проинформирую тебя о том, как развивается этот процесс), #Putin tells #Orbán about 's #NATO demands.
Hm, that's a strange formulation, considering is a @NATO state. Presser delayed. (pic link)" / Twitter

In Moscow, Orbán offers ‘Hungarian model’, blasts idea of sanctions – EURACTIV.com

"Amid simmering tensions between the West and Russia, after nearly five hours of talks in the Russian capital on Tuesday (1 February), the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán blasted the ineffectiveness of the EU’s punitive sanctions on Moscow and hailed his successful relations with Russian President Vladimir Putin."

“What we can offer is the Hungarian model,” he said, pointing out that Hungary, an EU and NATO member, has “excellent relations with Russia.”

“It is possible, there are examples of it, Hungary’s of all countries. It is true that this requires mutual respect,” he added.

Complete with looking the other way at Russia's takeover of Crimea and its troops on Ukraine's border.

Well, for one thing the sanctions only take place if Putin invades. But honestly, good for Hungary. I'm not bothered in the least that Orban leans to the East. If Putin controlled the US, we'd be threatening to invade Hungary right now!

 

[lpetrich]

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“ • President of Russia

During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole. These words were not driven by some short-term considerations or prompted by the current political context. It is what I have said on numerous occasions and what I firmly believe. I therefore feel it necessary to explain my position in detail and share my assessments of today's situation.

...
Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians are all descendants of Ancient Rus, which was the largest state in Europe. Slavic and other tribes across the vast territory – from Ladoga, Novgorod, and Pskov to Kiev and Chernigov – were bound together by one language (which we now refer to as Old Russian), economic ties, the rule of the princes of the Rurik dynasty, and – after the baptism of Rus – the Orthodox faith. The spiritual choice made by St. Vladimir, who was both Prince of Novgorod and Grand Prince of Kiev, still largely determines our affinity today.

The throne of Kiev held a dominant position in Ancient Rus. This had been the custom since the late 9th century. The Tale of Bygone Years captured for posterity the words of Oleg the Prophet about Kiev, ”Let it be the mother of all Russian cities.“

That's correct, though it must be noted that common origin does not preclude going in separate directions. That indeed happened to Kievan Rus, where Moscow ended up becoming dominant. Late in it, he notes

The incumbent authorities in Ukraine like to refer to Western experience, seeing it as a model to follow. Just have a look at how Austria and Germany, the USA and Canada live next to each other. Close in ethnic composition, culture, in fact sharing one language, they remain sovereign states with their own interests, with their own foreign policy. But this does not prevent them from the closest integration or allied relations. They have very conditional, transparent borders. And when crossing them the citizens feel at home. They create families, study, work, do business. Incidentally, so do millions of those born in Ukraine who now live in Russia. We see them as our own close people.

 

[barbos]

You know something the US didn't do? Invade Georgia.

Actually, you did, you absolutely did.

 

[barbos]

very quickly seized the initiative, after which hysterically anti-Russian slogans began to appear. Their success is explained, among other things, by the fact that in recent years the anti-Russian trend in Georgia has been in vogue.

This sounds to me like Saakashvili attached himself to a trend already in vogue. There isn't a politician alive who isn't willing to hop in front of a parade not of their own making.

You know something the US didn't do? Invade Georgia.

Who do you think that vogue created?
Saakashvili came to power in 2004 moreless. Left after 2013 I think.
Events described are in 2019

Are you satisfied with results?

I'm going by the words stated in your quote.

No, you are not. Because my quote says US directly financed anti-russian campaign in Georgia.

 

[ZiprHead]

You know something the US didn't do? Invade Georgia.

Actually, you did, you absolutely did.

 

[ZiprHead]

very quickly seized the initiative, after which hysterically anti-Russian slogans began to appear. Their success is explained, among other things, by the fact that in recent years the anti-Russian trend in Georgia has been in vogue.

This sounds to me like Saakashvili attached himself to a trend already in vogue. There isn't a politician alive who isn't willing to hop in front of a parade not of their own making.

You know something the US didn't do? Invade Georgia.

Who do you think that vogue created?
Saakashvili came to power in 2004 moreless. Left after 2013 I think.
Events described are in 2019

Are you satisfied with results?

I'm going by the words stated in your quote.

No, you are not. Because my quote says US directly financed anti-russian campaign in Georgia.

I agree. By my reading, the native trend still came first.

 

[barbos]

I agree. By my reading, the native trend still came first.

What part of "US installed Saakashvili regime in 2004" don't you understand?
You asked for links, I gave you the fucking links!
There was no trend before that. You installed that piece of shit and instructed to be anti-russian. This comes directly from the people who were dealing with US masters.

 

[lpetrich]

Putin's new Ukraine essay reveals imperial ambitions - Atlantic Council

Russian President Vladimir Putin has outlined the historical basis for his claims against Ukraine in a controversial new essay that has been likened in some quarters to a declaration of war. The 5,000-word article, entitled “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians,” was published on July 12 and features many of talking points favored by Putin throughout the past seven years of undeclared war between Russia and Ukraine.

The Russian leader uses the essay to reiterate his frequently voiced conviction that Russians and Ukrainians are “one people,” while blaming the current collapse in bilateral ties on foreign plots and anti-Russian conspiracies.

In one particularly ominous passage, he openly questions the legitimacy of Ukraine’s borders and argues that much of modern-day Ukraine occupies historically Russian lands, before stating matter of factly, “Russia was robbed.” Elsewhere, he hints at a fresh annexation of Ukrainian territory, claiming, “I am becoming more and more convinced of this: Kyiv simply does not need Donbas.”

Putin ends his lengthy treatise by appearing to suggest that Ukrainian statehood itself ultimately depends on Moscow’s consent, declaring, “I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”

Zelenskiy Trolls Putin After Russian President Publishes Article On Ukraine

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy has trolled his Russian counterpart, saying he was "envious" that Vladimir Putin had enough free time on his hands to research the history of their peoples.

...
The assertion seems meant to sound like a positive statement of fraternity but is an affront to many in Ukraine who see it as an attempt to minimize their unique culture and history.

The Ukrainian president said he didn't have enough time to analyze the entire article -- which was also published in Ukrainian on the Kremlin website a day earlier -- but snarked that he could see that the Russian president "spent a lot of time" on it.

"I am envious that the president of such a great power can permit himself to spend so much time [writing] such a volume of detailed work," Zelenskiy said.

He said that, despite Putin's mention of "brotherly" populations, Russia's actions had been anything but brotherly.

"It looks more like Cain and Abel," Zelenskiy said.

That's a reference to two of the sons of Adam and Eve in the Bible. Both of them got into agriculture, with Cain growing plants and Abel herding animals. At one time, both brothers offered some of their harvests to God, and God preferred Abel's offerings to Cain's. Cain then killed Abel, thus being a very sore loser.

 

[lpetrich]

Putin's new Ukraine essay reveals imperial ambitions - Atlantic Council

Notes
Putin’s Dangerous Ukraine Narrative by Anders Åslund - Project Syndicate

Russian President Vladimir Putin has lately been going to great lengths to highlight the historical linkages between his country and Ukraine. In denying that Ukraine has any right to independence, Putin is setting the stage for war.

... It is a masterclass in disinformation – and one step short of a declaration of war.

Four centuries ago, Poland extended far eastward of its current boundaries, including what is now Lithuania, Belarus, and western Ukraine. Poland's armies even got close to Moscow at one point.

But Russia pushed back Poland, something that Putin presented as Russia and Ukraine becoming reunited. Russia, along with Austria and Prussia, conquered Poland in the late 18th cy., making that nation disappear off the map. Poland only returned to existence after WWI, and it also stretched eastward of its current boundaries, but not as much as in 1600. Poland was pushed westward at the end of WWII, into some long-time German territories, with Poland and the Soviet Union splitting East Prussia in two.

Later, Putin condemns the “harsh Polonization” that was carried out during the interwar period, when the Poles suppressed “local culture and traditions.” He then credits the Bolsheviks for “developing and strengthening” Ukrainian “culture, language, and identity” through their policy of Ukrainization.

The problem, Putin continues, is that “Ukrainization was often imposed on those who did not consider themselves Ukrainian.” The Russification of Ukrainians – which far exceeds anything the Poles did – goes unmentioned.

Putin also presents the Soviet Union as the savior of Ukrainian reunification. “In 1939, lands that had previously been seized by Poland were returned to the USSR. Their main part was given to Soviet Ukraine.” This is a bizarre depiction of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the Soviets and Nazi Germany. Yet Putin shamelessly concludes that “contemporary Ukraine was fully created by the Soviet epoch.”

Putin does have his disagreements with the Bolsheviks, beyond their apparently excessive Ukrainization. His problem is not with, say, the Great Famine that killed millions of Ukrainians in 1932-33. (Putin avoids mentioning Stalin at all, and says modern Ukrainian leaders are “rewriting history” when they present the “common tragedy of collectivization and famine” as a genocide.)

Rather, Putin takes issue with the way the Bolsheviks treated the Russian nation: “as an inexhaustible material for social experiments.” Their dreams of “world revolution” and the abolition of nation-states led them arbitrarily to “cut borders” and give away “generous” territorial gifts. “Russia was actually robbed.”

Yet, even as the world condemns the “crimes of the Soviet regime,” it does not regard the actions of the Bolsheviks to “tear away” historical territories – such as Crimea – from Russia as criminal acts. And Putin knows why: “this led to the weakening of Russia,” so our “ill-wishers are satisfied with it.”

Rather screwy takes on Soviet history, it must be noted.