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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

I personally don't care about Putin. I care about myself. I know that this shit you are planning will not end well for anybody in Russia including myself.
You've never personally experienced a functioning democracy with a legacy of law so I can understand where you are coming from. You literally fear the change and maybe even the responsibility. You're not unlike Putin except that Putin is more afraid than you and is willing to terrorize and kill his own people at home to maintain his power.
 
How in the heck do we take over Russia?
Don't need to, all you need to do is install a puppet or simply start civil war.

Ah, yes... you mean do to them what Pootey has been trying to do to America for decades.
Great idea.
Here's a hint for you, barbos:
Russia has an uninterrupted history of invading and trying to assimilate its neighbors into a "Republic".
Therefore, NATO.
Now Russia is doing it again, and the only thing that makes Pootey hesitant is ...
yeah, you guessed it: NATO
 
Man that is paranoid.
No, it is not. That's just fact.

We never had any goodwill with Russia.
Maybe, but there was a lot of it in Russia in the 90s. Not much food though.

Russia isn't clean. The Soviet Government was guilty of murdering so many of their own people and tried to maintain an iron grasp on Eastern Europe, plunging those economies into Communistic failure. This isn't news, you know this.
How do you know that? Hollywood?


Russia isn't clean
That's why it has to be reformed and suitable puppet installed or destroyed if it does not work?

Then why did you ask about it? The contention was that locals around Russia were worried about Russia absorbing them.
No! Finland had no choice but to align with Hitler.
And why are we talking about that?
Are you seriously trying to convince me that these countries that afraid of Russia?
After I told you that they themselves admitted that US pay them to hate Russia?

Russia is demonstrating why there is a need for NATO to exist.
No, Measeheimer specifically addressed this BS. Go and watch it.
 
What a Russian assault on Ukraine would look like - YouTube by the Caspian Report
notes
U.S. Intelligence Sees Russian Plan for Possible Ukraine Invasion - The New York Times - Dec 4
with
Russia planning massive military offensive against Ukraine involving 175,000 troops, U.S. intelligence warns - The Washington Post
and I found
U.S. Intelligence Document on Russian Military Movements - The New York Times - Dec 3

Big mobilizations of troops and equipment east and northeast of Ukraine, enough for 175,000 troops, even if that number is not now present there. The WaPo article states that US assessments are at 70,000 troops, and Ukrainian ones at 94,000 troops.

The Caspian Report video has some discussion of a possible invasion plan. This plan has three waves of invasion, three waves in sequence with pauses for negotiations.

The first wave is in south Ukraine, starting from the Ukraine-Russia border and Crimea, going along the coast through Mariupol and Odessa. It will then go into Transnistria, a thin strip at Moldova's eastern border with a separatist movement.

The second wave has two subwaves. The first one starts in Donbass, at the east end of Ukraine, with Donetsk and Luhansk, where there is already a pro-Russian separatist movement. It goes west to the Dnieper River, which divides Ukraine into two roughly equal halves. The second one starts in the northeast, and goes through Kharkiv and Poltava before reaching the Dnieper.

The third wave also has two subwaves. One is from the north-northeast and heads toward Ukraine's capital Kyiv. The other one goes through Belarus and north Ukraine and also heads toward Kyiv. That city will thus be surrounded by Russian attackers.

What might happen if Russia does attack Ukraine? - YouTube by Binkov's Battlegrounds

Both the Caspian Reporter and Binkov discuss the relative troop and equipment strength on each side. Ukraine is rather behind Russia there, but it has the advantage of defense, and if they can hold out, that may make a lot of Russians discontented with the war.

The Caspian Reporter speculates that Russia won't want to dismember Ukraine, but instead give its provinces much greater autonomy, with not much for the central government in Kyiv to do.

In any case, that is likely to drive the unconquered parts of Ukraine much closer to NATO, and Sweden and Finland may end up joining that alliance.
 
I personally don't care about Putin. I care about myself. I know that this shit you are planning will not end well for anybody in Russia including myself.
You've never personally experienced a functioning democracy with a legacy of law so I can understand where you are coming from. You literally fear the change and maybe even the responsibility. You're not unlike Putin except that Putin is more afraid than you and is willing to terrorize and kill his own people at home to maintain his power.
Actually I have, I have lived in US.
Of course US is not that democratic (compared to most of EU)
But sign me up for US "democracy". Problem is, that's not what all of this is about.
US does not care about Democracy, otherwise you would fucking bomb Saudi Arabia tomorrow. All you or rather your neocons care is US and its well being at the expense of anybody else. So if Russia "threatens" it (which it does not), then it must be changed, destroyed, does not really matter, threat must be eliminated.
Saudi Arabia does not "threaten" US, they are under total control of US. So they can cut journalists in pieces alive and execute dissidents without even pretending to be good guys.
 
In any case, that is likely to drive the unconquered parts of Ukraine much closer to NATO, and Sweden and Finland may end up joining that alliance.
Do you know what I think really happened? US "diplomats" pressured these countries to say that.
 
Russia isn't clean. The Soviet Government was guilty of murdering so many of their own people and tried to maintain an iron grasp on Eastern Europe, plunging those economies into Communistic failure. This isn't news, you know this.
How do you know that? Hollywood?
How do you not know that?
Russia is demonstrating why there is a need for NATO to exist.
No, Measeheimer specifically addressed this BS. Go and watch it.
So you found one person who agrees with you. What makes that person any more worthy of discussion than anyone else?
 
Problem is, that's not what all of this is about.
US does not care about Democracy, otherwise you would fucking bomb Saudi Arabia tomorrow. All you or rather your neocons care is US and its well being at the expense of anybody else. So if Russia "threatens" it (which it does not), then it must be changed, destroyed, does not really matter, threat must be eliminated.
The problem with what you just said is that the US and western allies do not fear democracy. Why does Putin fear democracy? Why do Chinese communists fear democracy? Why does Putin fear a democratic Ukraine? Why does Putin need non-democratic states as buffer states to Russia?
 
So you found one person who agrees with you. What makes that person any more worthy of discussion than anyone else?
Not one, the whole damn lecture hall, and these are not random MSM propaganda recipients like yourself :)
The problem with what you just said is that the US and western allies do not fear democracy. Why does Putin fear democracy? Why do Chinese communists fear democracy? Why does Putin fear a democratic Ukraine? Why does Putin need non-democratic states as buffer states to Russia?
Actually, you have half of your Congress fearing democracy :)
And Putin does not fear democratic Ukraine. He fears puppet fascist regime you installed there.
How do you not know that?
I asked first
That you say this demonstrates that you do not understand democracy.
Please, enlighten me.
 
And Putin does not fear democratic Ukraine.
Putin fears losing personal power. He doesn't have his iron curtain and his berlin wall anymore but still desires both. Some things have changed in the Gulag State but not enough, though too much for him. Democratic states are a personal threat to his present status and power. He's not much different than Stalin but the world has changed around him.
 
The problem with what you just said is that the US and western allies do not fear democracy. Why does Putin fear democracy? Why do Chinese communists fear democracy? Why does Putin fear a democratic Ukraine? Why does Putin need non-democratic states as buffer states to Russia?
Actually, you have half of your Congress fearing democracy :)
And Putin does not fear democratic Ukraine. He fears puppet fascist regime you installed there.
Jebus Christ! Putin only likes the fascist regime he installs in Ukraine.
 
What is the worst thing that could happen if the Russians back down?
The worst thing is nuclear war.
You honestly think that the Nato plans to nuke Russia if Russia doesn't invade? That doesn't make any sense. I actually think that we should consider reengaging with Russia regarding the Nuke missile treaty that Trump scraped.
Not NATO, US. And yes, I think NATO aggressive expansion could eventually lead to nuclear War. Cuban Missile Crisis almost did. And do you know whose fault was that? US, 100%. Your fucking "democracy" almost killed everyone.

NATO has never even tried to annex anyone. Joining it has always been by choice.

As for the Cuban missile crisis--chest thumping by both sides but rational minds were in control.

However, consider the highest nuclear alert the world has ever seen:

A rocket heads up from off the coast of Norway. The burn time is a perfect match for an older US sub-launched ballistic missile. It's heading north and east, nowhere near Moscow but it would make sense if it was intended as an EMP decapitation strike. Has Norway ever launched a scientific mission like this? No.

The bird was real. The crappy Russian radars couldn't locate it very well (they were range-only radars, bearing could only be obtained by comparing the results from several radars), the actual launch point was an island off the coast of Norway used for scientific launches. The burn time matched because it was an older US ballistic missile--repurposed to carry a scientific bird. Likewise, the crappy Russian radars were not locating it properly--it was heading north along the coast, not towards Russia. Just like the launch notification had said, but the Russian bureaucracy lost it. (Perhaps because the notification didn't have a launch time--they were waiting until the aroura did what they wanted to look at, the launch time wasn't known until shortly before launch.)
 
But it is Russia that is causing this conflict. The countries that border Russia want to join Nato because they are tired of being bullied by Russia.
No!
It's you. The whole damn point of all these videos is to show it's actually you.
The same way it was You who almost killed everyone during missile crisis.
It is you!

We are trying to start a war by interfering with Russia starting a war?!
 
You keep repeating this garbage.
There can't be no doubt that West is coming, and it is coming after Russia and Putin specifically.
You conducted a coup in Ukraine, you conducted a coup in Georgia. Tried a coup in Belarus. But Russia and Putin personally is an ultimate goal. There can't be no doubt about that.
I personally don't care about Putin. I care about myself. I know that this shit you are planning will not end well for anybody in Russia including myself.

You prop up puppets that are disliked, don't be surprised when the locals try to throw them out. Doesn't mean we're behind the coups.

Russia is a mess of a kleptocracy, why in the world would we even want it?
 
Don't need to, all you need to do is install a puppet or simply start civil war.

His Flatulence was too stupid to be able to start a civil war, all the rest of our leaders aren't insane enough to want to start one.

Civil war in a nuclear-armed country? Hell, no! You blow yourselves to bits, we have to deal with the fallout.
 
NATO has never even tried to annex anyone. Joining it has always been by choice.
This is patently false. Montenegro was pretty much annexed, by supporting candidates which were pro-nato. Will of the people? to hell with it.
In reality it is true for all NATO new-comers. US runs around and support russo-phobes and shutdowns anyone who does not cooperate. That's what these people say themselves.

The rest of your neocon propaganda comments has been answered many many many times already. No need to answer it.
 
There are actually deeper reasons for the Russian threat to invade Ukraine than NATO expansion. Russian right wing nationalists really think of Belarus and Ukraine as "theirs". You hear this from Putin quite often and from many other Russian politicians and commentators. I think that barbos feels the same. This attitude goes back centuries--all the way to the  Kievan Rus', when the areas we think of now as Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia were all part of a vast territory. Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia all trace their historical origin back to the Kievan Rus'. The entire area was composed of tribes or principalities that spoke dialects of the old East Slavic language and traded their paganism in for the Orthodox Christian religion administered from Constantinople (called "Tsargrad" by the Rus'). Much of the western Russian Empire was constructed on the basis of the myth that it had the right to rule over that old area, even though cities like Novgorod and Kiev had been centers of East Slavic culture and commerce long before Moscow became a player in regional politics.

So, for many Russians, they see the annexation of Ukrainian territory as essentially returning those territories to their historical heartland. For part of that area to join NATO or the Western Alliance is unthinkable.
 
And Putin does not fear democratic Ukraine.
Putin fears losing personal power. He doesn't have his iron curtain and his berlin wall anymore but still desires both. Some things have changed in the Gulag State but not enough, though too much for him. Democratic states are a personal threat to his present status and power. He's not much different than Stalin but the world has changed around him.
No need to repeat this garbage. I have heard you the first thousand times.
 
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