How should west respond to potential (likely) U.S. invasion of Venezuela?

[barbos]

Maduro was awful. No question about it. And whatshisname, the idiot who nationalized the oil companies was an idiot too.

And US oil companies which were literally stealing oil from Venezuelans were geniuses?

 

[TV and credit cards]

They're still Americans. I have so far never met an American not extremely proud of its democracy and personal freedoms.

You have not actually lived in US, have you?

The Dr might note that there are good reasons for the existence of the ACLU and many other organizations of people who think the degree of freedom we have is very limited and that calling the US a democracy is an exaggeration. At best, we are only a representative republic, and based on voting rights laws in many states, gerrymandering, and a long history of voter repression, it is even questionable how strongly we can honestly claim to be a fully representative republic.

He clearly have not met ordinary Americans in their natural habitat which is America.
I have, and can safely say that none of them were "extremely proud". And it is actually true for most people in most countries.
Nobody goes around and feels proud. Most people are pissed off at their governments. At best they think that other countries are worse. Usually it's recent "immigrants" who run around proud of America.
And more educated people in US are pretty cynical about US.

Most people simply don’t wear it on their sleeve. For most, the freedoms we grew up with are the freedoms we take for granted and expect will always be.
Most people want to just live their life and will make the best of their lot in life.
Then there are those who live in a social media bubble and can’t get off the internet. I think they are a smaller group.

 

[barbos]

They're still Americans. I have so far never met an American not extremely proud of its democracy and personal freedoms.

You have not actually lived in US, have you?

The Dr might note that there are good reasons for the existence of the ACLU and many other organizations of people who think the degree of freedom we have is very limited and that calling the US a democracy is an exaggeration. At best, we are only a representative republic, and based on voting rights laws in many states, gerrymandering, and a long history of voter repression, it is even questionable how strongly we can honestly claim to be a fully representative republic.

He clearly have not met ordinary Americans in their natural habitat which is America.
I have, and can safely say that none of them were "extremely proud". And it is actually true for most people in most countries.
Nobody goes around and feels proud. Most people are pissed off at their governments. At best they think that other countries are worse. Usually it's recent "immigrants" who run around proud of America.
And more educated people in US are pretty cynical about US.

Most people simply don’t wear it on their sleeve. For most, the freedoms we grew up with are the freedoms we take for granted and expect will always be.
Most people want to just live their life and will make the best of their lot in life.

That's basically what I just said.

Then there are those who live in a social media bubble and can’t get off the internet. I think they are a smaller group.

And you of course don't think you are one of them

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Maduro was awful. No question about it. And whatshisname, the idiot who nationalized the oil companies was an idiot too.

And US oil companies which were literally stealing oil from Venezuelans were geniuses?

From the 50s into the mid 80s, Venezuela was the richest nation in South America. It had high living standards on a near per capital basis with the U.S. When the market crashed though, it plainly revealed that the country had failed to expand its economy beyond oil, which caused severe problems. Still, the world was willing to help e.g. IMF in order to prevent destabilization. The people went from high living standards to lower standards, and then...

Chavez came along and promised Venezuelans a utopian paradise under socialism, which they bought. Then he set about wrecking everything that could've and almost certainly would've resulted in recovery. Now it's among the most violent countries in the world and the vast majority are dirt poor.

Unfortunately, any notion that Trump is going to help bring them back to their former status is delusional. Some think it can't get any worse, but uttering those words is too often a jinx. Things can always get worse.

 

[barbos]

From the 50s into the mid 80s, Venezuela was the richest nation in South America. It had high living standards on a near per capital basis with the U.S.

Says who? Small percentage of the population?
The fact is, US was stealing money and paying off regime which was allowing said theft.

Chavez came along and promised Venezuelans a utopian paradise under socialism, which they bought. Then he set about wrecking everything that could've and almost certainly would've resulted in recovery. Now it's among the most violent countries in the world and the vast majority are dirt poor.

The fact that he mismanaged oil production is orthogonal to the fact that US had been stealing that oil before him.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

From the 50s into the mid 80s, Venezuela was the richest nation in South America. It had high living standards on a near per capital basis with the U.S.

Says who? Small percentage of the population?
The fact is, US was stealing money and paying off regime which was allowing said theft.

Chavez came along and promised Venezuelans a utopian paradise under socialism, which they bought. Then he set about wrecking everything that could've and almost certainly would've resulted in recovery. Now it's among the most violent countries in the world and the vast majority are dirt poor.

The fact that he mismanaged oil production is orthogonal to the fact that US had been stealing that oil before him.

Look up Venezuelan prosperity during the times I mentioned.

The U.S. and other nations paid for Venezuelan oil. There was no stealing involved.

Finally, the tired socialist/communist salt that only the rich benefitted is utter bullshit. It's the same lie Chavez used to initially get into power.

 

[barbos]

Look up Venezuelan prosperity during the times I mentioned.

Irrelevant. Economic troubles were the result of mismanagement but it was also a result of US sanctions.
Same thing with USSR, yes, system was not great, but the West was actively trying to undermine it too.
Venezuela was a capitalist shithole before Chavez that's why Chavez won the elections in the first place!

 

[lostone]

The same could be said of Cuba. Sanctions bring results. But do they allow observers to fairly judge what the sanctioned might have done if they had not been sanctioned? Mismanagement, OTOH, is practically a universal constant, in all political systems, in all of human history. We humans might not know how to make a perfect society, or even a very good one , but by gosh and by golly, we damn sure know how to fuck one up.

 

[barbos]

Finally, the tired socialist/communist salt that only the rich benefitted is utter bullshit. It's the same lie Chavez used to initially get into power.

Come on, even wikipedia disagrees with you.
And I remember the same situation in USSR with oil money which were wasted in the 70s.
Both Chavez and soviets did distribute oil wealth among population.

 

[barbos]

But do they allow observers to fairly judge what the sanctioned might have done if they had not been sanctioned?

China is the only example of self-contained regime which escaped US/West wrath.
The Irony is, in USSR in the 60-70s they were thinking about doing the same thing China did later. But then oil crisis happened and shitload of money came, which was spectacularly wasted on supporting Africa, Latin America and importing food. I remember the food, which then quickly disappeared once the oil prices fell.

But China has proven that socialist regimes are capable of managing the economy as well as the best capitalist regimes.
One, of course, can say that China is Socialism in name only. It does not matter, regime transitioned to "capitalism" by its own plan. Chinese have to thank Russians for that.
For comparison, look at India which was kinda in the same situation at the start as China but a capitalist democracy.
Not to mention capitalist shitholes of South America. So superiority of capitalist system is not that obvious.

 

[barbos]

US should let regimes fail on its own, without sanctions and interference.
But you can't do that becasue you know that your "success" to a large degree is based on control and the robbery of the whole world.

 

[Patooka]

Here's a theory. China's main oil imports come from Venezuela and Iran. Is controlling Venezuela and Iran about cutting off China from oil?

What do you guys think?

There's flaws in this since all China needs to do is pivot and get new oil rich allies, which they certainly are rich enough to do. But it would be annoying for China

Nope because the bottleneck isn't drilling but refining.

And there's no fucking way oil companies are about to change that.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Here's a theory. China's main oil imports come from Venezuela and Iran. Is controlling Venezuela and Iran about cutting off China from oil?

What do you guys think?

There's flaws in this since all China needs to do is pivot and get new oil rich allies, which they certainly are rich enough to do. But it would be annoying for China

Nope because the bottleneck isn't drilling but refining.

And there's no fucking way oil companies are about to change that.

The US refiners on the Gulf coast who process Canadian tar sand can also process Venezuelan Orinoco oil. They are eagerly awaiting.
Aside from Chevron who has always maintained a presence in Venezuela, the bottleneck it would seem is everything but refining.

 

[robnisch]

Here's a theory. China's main oil imports come from Venezuela and Iran. Is controlling Venezuela and Iran about cutting off China from oil?

What do you guys think?

There's flaws in this since all China needs to do is pivot and get new oil rich allies, which they certainly are rich enough to do. But it would be annoying for China

Nope because the bottleneck isn't drilling but refining.

And there's no fucking way oil companies are about to change that.

The US refiners on the Gulf coast who process Canadian tar sand can also process Venezuelan Orinoco oil. They are eagerly awaiting.
Aside from Chevron who has always maintained a presence in Venezuela, the bottleneck it would seem is everything but refining.

Someone call Billy Bob Thorton, he can settle this.

 

[Patooka]

Here's a theory. China's main oil imports come from Venezuela and Iran. Is controlling Venezuela and Iran about cutting off China from oil?

What do you guys think?

There's flaws in this since all China needs to do is pivot and get new oil rich allies, which they certainly are rich enough to do. But it would be annoying for China

Nope because the bottleneck isn't drilling but refining.

And there's no fucking way oil companies are about to change that.

The US refiners on the Gulf coast who process Canadian tar sand can also process Venezuelan Orinoco oil. They are eagerly awaiting.
Aside from Chevron who has always maintained a presence in Venezuela, the bottleneck it would seem is everything but refining.

The US is currently refining at 95% of its capacity. Unless one wants zero maintenance works to occur at refinery plants that's well and truly maxed out. An influx of crude would achieve fuck all.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But do they allow observers to fairly judge what the sanctioned might have done if they had not been sanctioned?

China is the only example of self-contained regime which escaped US/West wrath.
The Irony is, in USSR in the 60-70s they were thinking about doing the same thing China did later. But then oil crisis happened and shitload of money came, which was spectacularly wasted on supporting Africa, Latin America and importing food. I remember the food, which then quickly disappeared once the oil prices fell.

But China has proven that socialist regimes are capable of managing the economy as well as the best capitalist regimes.
One, of course, can say that China is Socialism in name only. It does not matter, regime transitioned to "capitalism" by its own plan. Chinese have to thank Russians for that.
For comparison, look at India which was kinda in the same situation at the start as China but a capitalist democracy.
Not to mention capitalist shitholes of South America. So superiority of capitalist system is not that obvious.

Communism and awful leadership through it got millions of Chinese to starve. The Catholic Church managed a good starvation in Ireland too. Dictators in Africa have helped their people starve. The US fucked up in the prairies, but good leadership helped fix agricultural mistakes and the US became a remarkable producer of food. .

Capitalism is necessary, but it needs a leash. A short one called socialism.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

From the 50s into the mid 80s, Venezuela was the richest nation in South America. It had high living standards on a near per capital basis with the U.S.

Says who? Small percentage of the population?
The fact is, US was stealing money and paying off regime which was allowing said theft.

Chavez came along and promised Venezuelans a utopian paradise under socialism, which they bought. Then he set about wrecking everything that could've and almost certainly would've resulted in recovery. Now it's among the most violent countries in the world and the vast majority are dirt poor.

The fact that he mismanaged oil production is orthogonal to the fact that US had been stealing that oil before him.

Look up Venezuelan prosperity during the times I mentioned.

The U.S. and other nations paid for Venezuelan oil. There was no stealing involved--or at least no actions by the U.S. that decimated the economy. There was certainly corruption in Venezuela's government, and it was bad, but it wasn't enough to put the country face down in the dirt and not bad enough to prevent recovery.

Finally, the tired socialist/communist salt that only the rich prospered is the same lie Chavez used to initially get into power.

 

[Elixir]

This (Venezuela, Greenland, Minneapolis etc etc) is all just intentionally abject stupidity and gratuitous violence that accomplishes its purpose, as long as we are not talking about
JEFFREY EPSTEIN.

 

[ZiprHead]

The same could be said of Cuba. Sanctions bring results. But do they allow observers to fairly judge what the sanctioned might have done if they had not been sanctioned? Mismanagement, OTOH, is practically a universal constant, in all political systems, in all of human history. We humans might not know how to make a perfect society, or even a very good one , but by gosh and by golly, we damn sure know how to fuck one up.

As far as Cuba goes, when Obama dropped sanctions and allowed direct travel to Cuba it spurred a massive capitalist movement of people creating their own private businesses spurred on by tourist dollars.

Biden reversed that decision and Trump continued it and I think both were counter productive to better relations.

 

[barbos]

The U.S. and other nations paid for Venezuelan oil.

Half the price?

There was no stealing involved--or at least no actions by the U.S. that decimated the economy.

You just admitted stealing (a little).

There was certainly corruption in Venezuela's government, and it was bad, but it wasn't enough to put the country face down in the dirt and not bad enough to prevent recovery.

More than enough reason to maidan US puppet regime, right?
And after that new government paid US oil companies for their investments.