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How the US actually stands on education spending

ronburgundy

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In the thread about the cost of Drones, a poster tossed out this meaningless stat below trying to prove that the US spends plenty on Education. That thread isn't about education, so I started a new thread to address more generally the problem with the stats tossed out by people who claim that the there is no problem with the amount the US spends on primary or secondary education.

It's a myth that US spends little on education.
20150414_Education_Fo.jpg

The question is, how are these funds spent? I think the education is in the US too politicized, from both left and right, which reduces effectiveness.

The first problem with that stat is that it makes no sense to present education spending as a % of total spending
by that government. If two countries of equal population spend the same on education but one country spends twice as much as the other of healthcare for kids, then the country that spend less on healthcare for their kids will have spent a higher % of its total spending on education. Yet, by any reasonable analysis is doing less for their kids, even less for education because unhealthy kids learn less and can't go to school.

The second and third problem is that the dollars spent are not adjusted for what matters, which is population size and per Capita GDP.

If you google "education spending by country" most of what you will get is similarly meaningless stats, because they either only adjust for population (per student spending) or only adjust for national GDP, but not both at the same time.
What matters is per pupil spending adjusted for per-capita GDP, which is highly related to cost of living and the differences in average income between countries. IOW, it not only adjust for what the country can afford to pay given its wealth, but what it needs to pay to produce the same amount of education as in countries where things like school building, books, and a median teacher salary cost less due to overall lower GDP.
When you do that, the US is below the 33 country OECD average in dollars spent per pupil as a % of per-capita GDP, for pre-school, primary, and secondary education. Only at the college level does the US spend more than the average OECD countries. (see Table on p. 217 of this OECD report)

The picture actually gets worse when you look at the % of the per pupil "education spending" that is spent on things to directly impact the quality of the instruction. In the US, a much higher % of the education budget goes to paying for schools construction, heating, air-conditioning, etc.. This is because these industries are completely privatized, so taxes spent of "education" are actually spent on making the CEOs and shareholders of energy companies millionaires. Also, new school construction is a larger part of the total "education" spending in the US, and none of that relates to quality of education. New schools are built due to overall population growth, as well as within-country migrations where lots of people move to previously low pop areas. The US has a higher pop growth than all but a few OECD nations, plus we have much higher than typical within-country migrations. The fact that Reno, NV has had to spend hundreds of millions just to have space for the 100% increase in students migrating to the area since 1990, does nothing to improve the per student quantity or quality of education.

Only a small part of total spending counted as "education spending" in the US is used in a way relevant to the quality of that education. One aspect of relevant spending is how much is spent to obtain high quality teachers.
Every viable economic theory predicts that attracting and retaining quality educators to the profession is directly determined by the compensation they receive.
The OECD also has looked at teacher compensation. Of the 20 OECD countries they have data for, the US ranks 16th of 20 in teacher pay relative to per Capita GDP and typical salaries in that country across professions. Yet, the US ranks 3rd in the total classroom hours per year they require of their teachers. In contrast, those 4 countries that have lower teacher salaries than the US, have way fewer required teacher salaries, and rand 15th, 17th, 19th, and 20th in teacher hours. IOW, the US is dead last in GDP-adjusted salary per hours taught.

In sum, on the valid stats that account for population, cost of living, hours worked, and whether the money is spent on actual instruction, the US ranks between below average to dead last compared to other OECD nations when it comes to spending that could impacts the quality of k-12 education.
 
Spending as a % of total public expenditure is a silly number.

What's the absolute dollars per student?
 
The second and third problem is that the dollars spent are not adjusted for what matters, which is population size and per Capita GDP.

Try again. It's a percentage, it's self-adjusting for population size.

The picture actually gets worse when you look at the % of the per pupil "education spending" that is spent on things to directly impact the quality of the instruction. In the US, a much higher % of the education budget goes to paying for schools construction, heating, air-conditioning, etc.. This is because these industries are completely privatized, so taxes spent of "education" are actually spent on making the CEOs and shareholders of energy companies millionaires.

Disagree. Public construction generally costs a lot more than private.
 
The question of which is more expensive, private construction or public construction varies widely across the US. However, there isn't much public construction of schools. It is primarily a plum handed out to local contractors by local school boards. This tends to invite high construction costs, the local contractors don't see much reason to compete with one another, rather they seem to divide the work between themselves.


Some states have taken over the construction of public schools because of this. The one that I am familiar with is South Carolina. They have standardized the construction of schools, based on the school enrollment and the size of the building site and it topography and soil conditions. They contract for more than one school at a time. A very good contractor of mine from Alpena, Michigan was building schools in South Carolina for six years running. We owned part of the company at the time and provided them with some site supervisors when they got too much work.

This method of standardizing the design of schools came largely from the method used to build prisons.

State officials in Columbia told me that previously, most local school boards are only interested in three things in South Carolina, who builds the schools, who provides the schools' annual supplies and football. South Carolina took over the first two, but said that they would have another civil war if they messed with football.

This is about twenty years old, I don't know if it is still being done this way there. We viewed the biggest risk in the business was that the state legislature would cave and turn the construction of the schools back to the control of the local school boards.
 
Question: Do those US spending figures include the cost of Football tickets at the University of Texas?

We are spending a ton on education, particularly after high-school. I'm not sure we're getting the best value for it.

aa
 
Try again. It's a percentage, it's self-adjusting for population size.

No it is not. It's only a percentage of total dollars spent, which has no reliable relationship to population size. As I explained, using that useless stat, a country that spends 30 million on 10,000 students and 30 million on other things would get a 50% on that stat, which is twice as high as a 25% score of a country that spends 30 million on 5,000 students and 90 million on other things. Yet the second country actually spends 33% more per student on education.

SimpleDon covered the issue of "private" versus "public" construction. Other countries tend to have more central control over both education and contracting decisions. But the far bigger difference in cost comes from regional increases in population. When a region sees an influx of people, new facilities need to be built. If the population later declines there is no getting that money back, classrooms just sit empty. So not only does the overall higher pop growth of the US than other OECD countries increase costs, but the US has an extremely high rate of within-country mobility, with about 3% of the US population moves from one state to another every single year.
not just between states but just between parts of a county that is enough to require new school construction. In fact, the massive variance in school quality and the instability in that quality is among the countless factors that prompt this movement. Parents in the US regularly move from one district to another because it allows them to send their kids to a different school.

Teacher pay per hour instruction relative to costs of living and pay in other profession is the portion of all spending that most directly relates to quality of instruction rather than differences in costs due to student mobility, pop growth, energy markets, textbook markets, etc.. The second link in my OP (pages 59-60) shows teacher pay relative to per capita GDP (which is a proxy for both cost of living and pay relative to other professions). Relative pay to other professions will directly determine the quality of applicants who enter into and stay in the field, and the amount of effort they feel obligated to put forth. On that metric, the US is last among the 20 OECD countries that have that data for.
 
Try again. It's a percentage, it's self-adjusting for population size.

No it is not. It's only a percentage of total dollars spent, which has no reliable relationship to population size. As I explained, using that useless stat, a country that spends 30 million on 10,000 students and 30 million on other things would get a 50% on that stat, which is twice as high as a 25% score of a country that spends 30 million on 5,000 students and 90 million on other things. Yet the second country actually spends 33% more per student on education.

The thing is social spending will scale with population anyway. You are right about the distribution of social spending proving nothing, though.
 
No it is not. It's only a percentage of total dollars spent, which has no reliable relationship to population size. As I explained, using that useless stat, a country that spends 30 million on 10,000 students and 30 million on other things would get a 50% on that stat, which is twice as high as a 25% score of a country that spends 30 million on 5,000 students and 90 million on other things. Yet the second country actually spends 33% more per student on education.

The thing is social spending will scale with population anyway. You are right about the distribution of social spending proving nothing, though.

Spending increases with population? One should think so. The question is, does the increase of spending keep up with the needs of the population? Not necessarily. If it does/is, then one has to ask why our public education system is so lackluster when compared to our western neighbors and allies. Why is our classroom equipment and technology decades out of date? Why can't we afford to pay teachers a proper wage so that we attract the best and brightest? This isn't the case with other nations that have comprehensive public education programs so it can't simply be that public education is bad in general. Logic dictates that the flaw is with either funding, execution, or both.
 
The thing is social spending will scale with population anyway. You are right about the distribution of social spending proving nothing, though.

Spending increases with population? One should think so. The question is, does the increase of spending keep up with the needs of the population? Not necessarily. If it does/is, then one has to ask why our public education system is so lackluster when compared to our western neighbors and allies. Why is our classroom equipment and technology decades out of date? Why can't we afford to pay teachers a proper wage so that we attract the best and brightest? This isn't the case with other nations that have comprehensive public education programs so it can't simply be that public education is bad in general. Logic dictates that the flaw is with either funding, execution, or both.

How much of our education budget is wasted on unproductive special-ed stuff, though? (I am not saying all special ed is a waste, but all too much of it is.)
 
Spending increases with population? One should think so. The question is, does the increase of spending keep up with the needs of the population? Not necessarily. If it does/is, then one has to ask why our public education system is so lackluster when compared to our western neighbors and allies. Why is our classroom equipment and technology decades out of date? Why can't we afford to pay teachers a proper wage so that we attract the best and brightest? This isn't the case with other nations that have comprehensive public education programs so it can't simply be that public education is bad in general. Logic dictates that the flaw is with either funding, execution, or both.

How much of our education budget is wasted on unproductive special-ed stuff, though? (I am not saying all special ed is a waste, but all too much of it is.)

Somehow I don't think special education spending is what causes our education system to fall behind. Still, I'll indulge you: Any specific programs you're referring to?
 
Question: Do those US spending figures include the cost of Football tickets at the University of Texas?

??? Very little of that money goes toward any educational programs at Universities. It goes toward $10 million dollar coaches salaries and billion dollar athletic facilities. Also, athletics at most colleges is a net loss to the school, with $ to support the teams coming out of general education funds.

We are spending a ton on education, particularly after high-school.

We do spend an above average amount at the college level. However, the facts in my links show that at the k-12 level, we spend much less on actual instructional cost per student than almost all other comparable countries.
Yes, there is a lot of $ spend that doesn't really go toward quality of education, but most of the waste isn't due to the curriculum. Its due to the massive non-instructional costs that include everything from security (less of an issue in less gun-happy countries), construction costs due to pop growth and high intra-nation migration, etc..

Oh, and a factor I didn't mention before, the cost of busing kids because the US has such a terrible public transit system. The US spends about $24,000,000,000 every year to bus kids to and from school. In most other countries kids just use the public transit system.
So, that is a cost counted as "education" that artificially inflates what the US spends on "education".
 
No it is not. It's only a percentage of total dollars spent, which has no reliable relationship to population size. As I explained, using that useless stat, a country that spends 30 million on 10,000 students and 30 million on other things would get a 50% on that stat, which is twice as high as a 25% score of a country that spends 30 million on 5,000 students and 90 million on other things. Yet the second country actually spends 33% more per student on education.

The thing is social spending will scale with population anyway. You are right about the distribution of social spending proving nothing, though.

They correlate only modestly. There is massive variation in government spending per resident. This is not just because of massive difference in what is publicly funded, but even the most basic services like roads do not correlate highly in terms of dollars per resident. Everything from weather, to geography, to population density impact how much roads, road maintenance, and other infrastructure is needed and what it costs. In many areas, a road is needed regardless of whether 100 or 1000 people use it per day and weather and geography determine the creation and maintenance costs as much or more than the variation is usage. Countless realities like this weaken the correlation between population size and the cost of even the most basic services all governments provide.

The US is 25th of 28 OECD countries in total "education" spending as a % of GDP. GDP and total dollars relate to population size in similar ways and total GDP partly reflects what those dollars are actually worth.

Also, see my post to aa above. The US counts $24 billion per year in busing costs as "education" expenses, whereas most other countries do not count that because most transport is via their far superior general public transit systems. That's equal to about the cost of 100 new schools per year.
 
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How much of our education budget is wasted on unproductive special-ed stuff, though? (I am not saying all special ed is a waste, but all too much of it is.)

Somehow I don't think special education spending is what causes our education system to fall behind. Still, I'll indulge you: Any specific programs you're referring to?

He may have a point. The government spends about 2.3 times more on each Special Ed student than other students. Note that about 80% of that additional cost is paid for by state and local government, not the Fed.
This average applies to 13% of all US k-12 students who are "special needs". So, if you do the math, the additional expense paid for special ed above normal ed adds 17% to the total cost of education. Put another way, if the budgets stayed the same but there were no special ed programs, then it we'd be spending 17% more per student on education than we are now. That's a lot.
OF course, that is not an advocation eliminating all special ed. It's just an illustration of the large amount of education funding that goes towards the increasing % of students with "special needs". (btw, the % of students with special needs increased by 30% from 1990 to 2004). If there is "waste" there and if many such students are being overdiagnosed, etc.., it could be doing the equivalent of cutting our education budgets by 5%-10%.
 
Somehow I don't think special education spending is what causes our education system to fall behind. Still, I'll indulge you: Any specific programs you're referring to?

He may have a point. The government spends about 2.3 times more on each Special Ed student than other students. Note that about 80% of that additional cost is paid for by state and local government, not the Fed.
This average applies to 13% of all US k-12 students who are "special needs". So, if you do the math, the additional expense paid for special ed above normal ed adds 17% to the total cost of education. Put another way, if the budgets stayed the same but there were no special ed programs, then it we'd be spending 17% more per student on education than we are now. That's a lot.
OF course, that is not an advocation eliminating all special ed. It's just an illustration of the large amount of education funding that goes towards the increasing % of students with "special needs". (btw, the % of students with special needs increased by 30% from 1990 to 2004). If there is "waste" there and if many such students are being overdiagnosed, etc.., it could be doing the equivalent of cutting our education budgets by 5%-10%.

Fair enough. I mentioned this before elsewhere but there can be a wide variation in what "Special education" actually means. Some kids are intellectually capable but are disruptive or unable to function in a regular classroom due to their behavior (This was me.) Sometimes it also applies to people in particularly bad physical condition. Not everyone in special education is a mentally handicapped (Although in my experience they do make up the lion's share of special ed. cases.)
 
He may have a point. The government spends about 2.3 times more on each Special Ed student than other students. Note that about 80% of that additional cost is paid for by state and local government, not the Fed.
This average applies to 13% of all US k-12 students who are "special needs". So, if you do the math, the additional expense paid for special ed above normal ed adds 17% to the total cost of education. Put another way, if the budgets stayed the same but there were no special ed programs, then it we'd be spending 17% more per student on education than we are now. That's a lot.
OF course, that is not an advocation eliminating all special ed. It's just an illustration of the large amount of education funding that goes towards the increasing % of students with "special needs". (btw, the % of students with special needs increased by 30% from 1990 to 2004). If there is "waste" there and if many such students are being overdiagnosed, etc.., it could be doing the equivalent of cutting our education budgets by 5%-10%.

Fair enough. I mentioned this before elsewhere but there can be a wide variation in what "Special education" actually means. Some kids are intellectually capable but are disruptive or unable to function in a regular classroom due to their behavior (This was me.) Sometimes it also applies to people in particularly bad physical condition. Not everyone in special education is a mentally handicapped (Although in my experience they do make up the lion's share of special ed. cases.)

I don't think any of the cost of merely physical accommodations are included in those figures. It's pretty much all just the cost of specialist teachers, etc. In fact, special needs kids in private school often have specialists paid by the local public school district to come into their private school, which makes the cost to the public greater than if they were on a public school campus. I know this happened to my niece who was a common combo of dyslexic/left-handed/ADHD/behavioral problems (all modestly correlated with each other).
My sister realized this was happening and put her daughter back into public school.

In general, given the questionable scientific rigor behind skyrocketing ADHD diagnoses with 11% of students getting such a diagnosis at some point, it's plausible that many kids getting expensive "special needs" education is a waste of money that harms education over all.
I'd have to look more into it to form a considered opinion though.
 
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How much of our education budget is wasted on unproductive special-ed stuff, though? (I am not saying all special ed is a waste, but all too much of it is.)

Somehow I don't think special education spending is what causes our education system to fall behind. Still, I'll indulge you: Any specific programs you're referring to?

1) Special ed is half or more of the education budget.

2) It's not programs per se, but how much effort is put into providing very minimal benefit for the students barely capable of learning anything. And how much is fraud.
 
Oh, and a factor I didn't mention before, the cost of busing kids because the US has such a terrible public transit system. The US spends about $24,000,000,000 every year to bus kids to and from school. In most other countries kids just use the public transit system.
So, that is a cost counted as "education" that artificially inflates what the US spends on "education".

But that would mean snowflakes crossing major streets. Can't expect the parents to actually teach the kids, can we??
 
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