Human Instinct and Free Will

[untermensche]

Nonsense.

You move it at the timing of YOUR choosing and the manner of YOUR choosing.

Or you decide to not move it, another expression of your "will".

The conversation can't move forward if you deny clear evidence.

If it was nonsense then all you have to do is give a clear, precise, unambiguous definition of "free will".

I have never seen those who seem to enjoy arguing about free will that are willing to.

I did. Those that can read probably picked it up.

Freedom is without coercion.

And the example of "will" is the ability to move at a time and in a manner of the "mind's" choosing.

Moving the finger at a time and in a manner the mind desires is evidence of "freedom of will".

The "mind" can direct the body to move.

How this is not "freedom of will" is what needs explanation.

But explanation is not what you do.

 

[untermensche]

Are you claiming you can't move your finger, your entire body, with your "mind"?

I am saying, quite obviously, that it is ultimately the brain that performs these functions....partly through generation of conscious mind and largely unconsciously.

Why exactly would you "unconsciously" move your finger randomly?

Why do these movements correspond to random and capricious decisions of the "mind" based on a conception of the world?

What you are claiming is not rational nor is there any evidence to support it.

I can. Any time I want and in a manner of my mind's choosing.

Only because 'your' brain is producing both 'you' and your experience of conscious agency.....which, fine while the brain is functional, is ultimately an illusion.

That is not any kind if explanation. It is an evasion.

The "mind" (most likely a product of some kind of activity in the brain) is able to influence other parts of the brain, based on conceptions of the world, to move the body.

It is impossible for us to know how the "mind" does it.

Since we have no idea what the "mind" is.

 

[Malintent]

The 'proof' is in the inability to define either "free" or "will" in a meaningful way to continue discussion.
If I were to have moved my finger, it would not have been "free will", it would have been YOU imposing some kind of will upon me. Did you forget that you "told" me to move my finger? If I don't move it, I am perhaps "free", but I haven't exerted any "will".

Nonsense.

You move it at the timing of YOUR choosing and the manner of YOUR choosing.

Or you decide to not move it, another expression of your "will".

The conversation can't move forward if you deny clear evidence.

Deny clear evidence of what? You are the one that put the idea of moving my finger in my head... I was not free to avoid that consideration. That entire process was completely beyond my control... the consequence of all that (which you started, and I merely walked though the mental steps leading down those stairs you basically pushed me down) is called a decision. I may have decided one way or another, but there was exactly zero "freedom" to it.

Try this... Don't think of a black cat.

You were free to either think of a cat or not... but you did... because you are not really free.

the Matrix has you.

 

[untermensche]

Nonsense.

You move it at the timing of YOUR choosing and the manner of YOUR choosing.

Or you decide to not move it, another expression of your "will".

The conversation can't move forward if you deny clear evidence.

Deny clear evidence of what? You are the one that put the idea of moving my finger in my head... I was not free to avoid that consideration. That entire process was completely beyond my control... the consequence of all that (which you started, and I merely walked though the mental steps leading down those stairs you basically pushed me down) is called a decision. I may have decided one way or another, but there was exactly zero "freedom" to it.

Try this... Don't think of a black cat.

You were free to either think of a cat or not... but you did... because you are not really free.

the Matrix has you.

How exactly is moving your finger "beyond your control"? Are you paralyzed?

That makes no sense.

 

[skepticalbip]

If it was nonsense then all you have to do is give a clear, precise, unambiguous definition of "free will".

I have never seen those who seem to enjoy arguing about free will that are willing to.

I did. Those that can read probably picked it up.

Freedom is without coercion.

And the example of "will" is the ability to move at a time and in a manner of the "mind's" choosing.

Moving the finger at a time and in a manner the mind desires is evidence of "freedom of will".

The "mind" can direct the body to move.

How this is not "freedom of will" is what needs explanation.

But explanation is not what you do.

That is hardly unambiguous. The whole argument (as I have seen) over freewill is exactly what is considered "coercion". Is coercion someone holding a gun to another's head, social pressure, suggestion, cause and effect, etc.?

And this isn't even getting into the ridiculous arguments over "mind" - which no one seems to want to agree on a definition before arguing.

Such arguments are nonsense until everyone involved in the argument agree on the unambiguous definitions of the terms used.

 

[untermensche]

I did. Those that can read probably picked it up.

Freedom is without coercion.

And the example of "will" is the ability to move at a time and in a manner of the "mind's" choosing.

Moving the finger at a time and in a manner the mind desires is evidence of "freedom of will".

The "mind" can direct the body to move.

How this is not "freedom of will" is what needs explanation.

But explanation is not what you do.

That is hardly unambiguous. The whole argument (as I have seen) over freewill is exactly what is considered "coercion". Is coercion someone holding a gun to another's head, social pressure, suggestion, cause and effect, etc.?

And this isn't even getting into the ridiculous arguments over "mind".

You may want to avoid the crucial arguments, but that is just a prejudice.

We make real world decisions with our "minds". That is the decision maker in many cases.

We don't decide with our "mind" to have a sex drive. But we decide with our "mind" who we have sex with.

We don't decide all things with our "minds" but for things like direction of locomotion across a room we use our "minds", our desire and our conceptions of the room.

If we want to talk about "freedom of will" we have to talk about the "mind". You can't just talk about the brain as if the "mind" doesn't exist and the "mind" is not making considered decisions based on the external world.

There is no way around it.

 

[DBT]

I am saying, quite obviously, that it is ultimately the brain that performs these functions....partly through generation of conscious mind and largely unconsciously.

Why exactly would you "unconsciously" move your finger randomly?

Where did you get random from? Motor actions are faster than conscious thought and deliberation, and often bypass conscious thought altogether.

If a boxer had to consider his moves consciously he'd be knocked out in no time. If you stood considering your options when a speeding car is bearing down on you, you'd probably be road kill.

Even when the conscious is active (a brain activity) motor actions are initiated micro seconds before conscious report.

I have provided the relevant material, neuroscience, etc, for you in past threads but you merely brush it aside or ignore what it's telling us.

You just repeat your belief in mind as the agent as if mind is independent from the brain.

Evidence shows the reverse is true, that the mind is what brain does. Nothing more, nothing less. The state of the brain is the state of mind, which is the state of you as a conscious entity. An entity shaped and formed by a brain.

Consequently, you have no argument and you have no case.

 

[untermensche]

Why exactly would you "unconsciously" move your finger randomly?

Where did you get random from? Motor actions are faster than conscious thought and deliberation, and often bypass conscious thought altogether.

Nonsense. You have no idea how fast a thought moves because you have no idea, anatomically and physiologically, what a thought is.

You are pulling things from your ass and trying to pass them off as knowledge.

If a boxer had to consider his moves consciously he'd be knocked out in no time. If you stood considering your options when a speeding car is bearing down on you, you'd probably be road kill.

Hand waving.

This is about a simple conscious movement.

Why are you trying to change the subject?

Even when the conscious is active (a brain activity) motor actions are initiated micro seconds before conscious report.

The "conscious is active"?

You are now babbling.

I don't believe your nonsense. The original researcher didn't believe this nonsense.

You are merely assigning agency to brain activity you don't understand. Ignorance piled upon ignorance.

The human can move based entirely on conceptions of the world. To do this requires the freedom to do it.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Nonsense.

You move it at the timing of YOUR choosing and the manner of YOUR choosing.

Or you decide to not move it, another expression of your "will".

The conversation can't move forward if you deny clear evidence.

Deny clear evidence of what? You are the one that put the idea of moving my finger in my head... I was not free to avoid that consideration. That entire process was completely beyond my control... the consequence of all that (which you started, and I merely walked though the mental steps leading down those stairs you basically pushed me down) is called a decision. I may have decided one way or another, but there was exactly zero "freedom" to it.

Try this... Don't think of a black cat.

You were free to either think of a cat or not... but you did... because you are not really free.

the Matrix has you.

Yes, but it couldn't not have me. The Matrix is not free either.
EB

 

[Juma]

Where did you get random from? Motor actions are faster than conscious thought and deliberation, and often bypass conscious thought altogether.

Nonsense. You have no idea how fast a thought moves because you have no idea, anatomically and physiologically, what a thought is.

You are pulling things from your ass and trying to pass them off as knowledge.

If a boxer had to consider his moves consciously he'd be knocked out in no time. If you stood considering your options when a speeding car is bearing down on you, you'd probably be road kill.

Hand waving.

This is about a simple conscious movement.

Why are you trying to change the subject?

Even when the conscious is active (a brain activity) motor actions are initiated micro seconds before conscious report.

The "conscious is active"?

You are now babbling.

I don't believe your nonsense. The original researcher didn't believe this nonsense.

You are merely assigning agency to brain activity you don't understand. Ignorance piled upon ignorance.

The human can move based entirely on conceptions of the world. To do this requires the freedom to do it.

What the fuck are you doing writing these posts? You are not discussing since you really doesnt care what others write.. Do you belifve thst there are an audience for your posts out there somewhere? Uou are so wrong, the only one enjoying your posts is wokld be you, but I'm not sure even you do.

 

[DBT]

Where did you get random from? Motor actions are faster than conscious thought and deliberation, and often bypass conscious thought altogether.

Nonsense. You have no idea how fast a thought moves because you have no idea, anatomically and physiologically, what a thought is.

You are pulling things from your ass and trying to pass them off as knowledge.

If a boxer had to consider his moves consciously he'd be knocked out in no time. If you stood considering your options when a speeding car is bearing down on you, you'd probably be road kill.

Hand waving.

This is about a simple conscious movement.

Why are you trying to change the subject?

Even when the conscious is active (a brain activity) motor actions are initiated micro seconds before conscious report.

The "conscious is active"?

You are now babbling.

I don't believe your nonsense. The original researcher didn't believe this nonsense.

You are merely assigning agency to brain activity you don't understand. Ignorance piled upon ignorance.

The human can move based entirely on conceptions of the world. To do this requires the freedom to do it.

You ignore all evidence and research on brain/cognitive function and just repeat the same fallacious assertions...your own ideas (that's if you aren't trolling).

It would be better if you just conceded gracefully.

 

[untermensche]

Nonsense. You have no idea how fast a thought moves because you have no idea, anatomically and physiologically, what a thought is.

You are pulling things from your ass and trying to pass them off as knowledge.

If a boxer had to consider his moves consciously he'd be knocked out in no time. If you stood considering your options when a speeding car is bearing down on you, you'd probably be road kill.

Hand waving.

This is about a simple conscious movement.

Why are you trying to change the subject?

Even when the conscious is active (a brain activity) motor actions are initiated micro seconds before conscious report.

The "conscious is active"?

You are now babbling.

I don't believe your nonsense. The original researcher didn't believe this nonsense.

You are merely assigning agency to brain activity you don't understand. Ignorance piled upon ignorance.

The human can move based entirely on conceptions of the world. To do this requires the freedom to do it.

You ignore all evidence and research on brain/cognitive function and just repeat the same fallacious assertions...your own ideas (that's if you aren't trolling).

It would be better if you just conceded gracefully.

I'm sure I'm ignoring something.

But if you actually opened your eyes and looked around you would realize that many question the conclusions, not evidence, you're peddling.

You and others are looking at activity in the brain and assigning a specific function to it without the slightest idea what the activity is actually doing.

You have no idea how brain activity translates into consciousness yet you want to pretend you do.

It is not science.

 

[Malintent]

Deny clear evidence of what? You are the one that put the idea of moving my finger in my head... I was not free to avoid that consideration. That entire process was completely beyond my control... the consequence of all that (which you started, and I merely walked though the mental steps leading down those stairs you basically pushed me down) is called a decision. I may have decided one way or another, but there was exactly zero "freedom" to it.

Try this... Don't think of a black cat.

You were free to either think of a cat or not... but you did... because you are not really free.

the Matrix has you.

How exactly is moving your finger "beyond your control"? Are you paralyzed?

That makes no sense.

Of course that makes no sense.. it's not what I said.. far removed from the context of the entire statement. Read again.

Why would I have moved my finger?
Why would I have even considered moving it?

Our brains process information as a matter of course... one cannot decide to consider options. One is not free to make decisions. Decisions happen as a result of variables you are exposed to.

 

[Malintent]

Why exactly would you "unconsciously" move your finger randomly?

Where did you get random from? Motor actions are faster than conscious thought and deliberation, and often bypass conscious thought altogether.

If a boxer had to consider his moves consciously he'd be knocked out in no time. If you stood considering your options when a speeding car is bearing down on you, you'd probably be road kill.

Even when the conscious is active (a brain activity) motor actions are initiated micro seconds before conscious report.

I have provided the relevant material, neuroscience, etc, for you in past threads but you merely brush it aside or ignore what it's telling us.

You just repeat your belief in mind as the agent as if mind is independent from the brain.

Evidence shows the reverse is true, that the mind is what brain does. Nothing more, nothing less. The state of the brain is the state of mind, which is the state of you as a conscious entity. An entity shaped and formed by a brain.

Consequently, you have no argument and you have no case.

In addition to those things, we have what are called "mirroring neurons" whose sole purpose is to imitate other human beings around you so as to help build a case in the mind for one action over an other... all completely unconscious and beyond our control.

In fact, we can take advantage of this in others... If during a conversation with someone, you mimic their movements and body positioning in a subtle way, they will be more likely to accept what you are saying to them... this is because their mirroring neurons are signaling them that you are "on their side", so to speak.

 

[untermensche]

How exactly is moving your finger "beyond your control"? Are you paralyzed?

That makes no sense.

Of course that makes no sense.. it's not what I said.. far removed from the context of the entire statement. Read again.

Why would I have moved my finger?
Why would I have even considered moving it?

Our brains process information as a matter of course... one cannot decide to consider options. One is not free to make decisions. Decisions happen as a result of variables you are exposed to.

You are hand waving. No pun intended.

I can move my finger any time my mind chooses.

And it is my mind choosing, not some cell or neurotransmitter deciding.

All the ideas you just expressed were the end result of decisions you made with your mind.

By expressing them you proved your mind makes free decisions.

Unless you can demonstrate you were forced in some way to express them. Does somebody have a gun to your head?

 

[DBT]

I'm sure I'm ignoring something.

But if you actually opened your eyes and looked around you would realize that many question the conclusions, not evidence, you're peddling.

You and others are looking at activity in the brain and assigning a specific function to it without the slightest idea what the activity is actually doing.

You have no idea how brain activity translates into consciousness yet you want to pretend you do.

It is not science.

You shouldn't be mentioning science considering that it you who completely ignores the science and base your assertions on subjective experience.

Nobody disputes the fact that we can move our fingers at will, or engage in hand waving like you....but this ignores the mechanisms by which we first feel the impulse to move and the motor action of movement.

The latter is what you studiously ignore, just to repeat the former, which nobody is disputing.

Here's a primer...not that it'll help you understand. You don't want to learn.

Abstract
''Are we in command of our motor acts?The popular belief holds that our conscious decisions are the direct causes of our actions. However, overwhelming evidence from neurosciences demonstrates that our actions are instead largely driven by brain processes that unfold outside of our consciousness''


Introduction

''In daily life, we usually have the feeling that we are the authors of the actions we make, that the decisions we make and the corresponding movements we perform are consciously initiated and controlled. The belief that our actions are caused by our mental states, and these mental states are causally independent from brain processes reflects a dualistic philosophy (Descartes, 1641). However, the current scientific view holds that human actions and mental states are both biologically determined and stem from patterns of neural activity in the brain.''

Voluntary action is unconsciously generated

''The idea that intention is a direct translation of desires and goals into behavior is deeply embedded in our culture. But it is supported by experimental evidence? That is the question which interested Benjamin Libet 30 years ago (Libet et al., 1983). In his pioneer experiment, participants were asked to make a voluntary movement at will and to report the exact time on a clock at the instant they had decided to move, while their readiness potential, a change in electroencephalography (EEG) activity over the motor cortex that occurs prior to voluntary movement, was being recorded. The results showed that the preparatory motor activity began more than 350 ms before subjects became aware of the decision to act. More recently, Soon et al. (2008) used a brain decoding statistical method to show that an action could be predicted by blood-oxygen-level-dependent functional magnetic resonance imaging (BOLD fMRI) signal. Although the volunteers felt they consciously decided to move, the vector machine could classify the outcome of their decision by means of the activity in several cortical regions, such as the precuneus and the fronto-polar cortex, up to a few seconds before the decision to move entered awareness, while the activity in the supplementary motor area (SMA) determined the timing of that decision.''

 

[untermensche]

You are a broken record.

You keep trying to pass this mythology off as science.

Libet did not think his experiment said a thing about "will" nor did it explain anything about consciousness or conscious movement.

Unexplained brain activity, really cellular activity, can never be more than unexplained brain activity.

Despite your mythology.

I could do an experiment that I know you would fail miserably.

I could show you scan after brain scan and ask you what the person was doing or thinking.

And you will never be able to tell me.

Because all you have is a mythology and no real understanding of what brain activity is.

 

[iolo]

You are a broken record.

You keep trying to pass this mythology off as science.

Libet did not think his experiment said a thing about "will" nor did it explain anything about consciousness or conscious movement.

Unexplained brain activity, really cellular activity, can never be more than unexplained brain activity.

Despite your mythology.

I could do an experiment that I know you would fail miserably.

I could show you scan after brain scan and ask you what the person was doing or thinking.

And you will never be able to tell me.

Because all you have is a mythology and no real understanding of what brain activity is.

The difficulty, untermensche, is that you believe you have, though your grounds for this belief are, as far as I can see, a matter of faith, not fact.

 

[untermensche]

You are a broken record.

You keep trying to pass this mythology off as science.

Libet did not think his experiment said a thing about "will" nor did it explain anything about consciousness or conscious movement.

Unexplained brain activity, really cellular activity, can never be more than unexplained brain activity.

Despite your mythology.

I could do an experiment that I know you would fail miserably.

I could show you scan after brain scan and ask you what the person was doing or thinking.

And you will never be able to tell me.

Because all you have is a mythology and no real understanding of what brain activity is.

The difficulty, untermensche, is that you believe you have, though your grounds for this belief are, as far as I can see, a matter of faith, not fact.

You have not made a coherent point.

I am not claiming I can divine intentions from crude brain scans of some aspects, not all, of brain activity. That is a modern mythology.

The mythology of: We don't have a clue how brain activity translates to consciousness but we know everything brain activity is doing when we see it.

I am claiming I can move my finger by "willing" it. Move it by wanting it to move.

Which is an observation.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I'm not free to renounce the idea of free-will. Like Popeye/Trump said: I am what I am.
EB

Popeye has bigger forearms, no doubt. And loves Spinach.

Trump isn't in love with Spanish.
EB