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Human Instinct and Free Will

It's almost as if you are disputing the coherence of terms like "we" make decisions or "I" make decisions in general. In other words, you should have the same argument whether the will is free or not.
But where does it collapse and why? If there is no reason for it to collapse to one choice over the other, then that is the freedom.


That's the reason why there are at least ten different interpretations of quantum wave function. In some there is no collapse, MW, in others collapse is due to macro scale interactions, gravity, etc. If that wasn't the case, nothing would have formed in the early stages of the BB, no particles, no stars, galaxies, planets, life on Earth.

Even heat collapses wave functions, but it doesn't get to choose where on the volume of probability densities.

Neither does the brain. Nor does conscious mind, nor does Conscious will whether someone hopes to call it 'free' will or not.


According to some compatibilists, it's even easier. At least I am trying to use a more personal and empowering approach.

Compatibalism fails to establish any form of actual freedom of will. It simply offers a semantic definition that doesn't relate to the decision making process. Similar to; God is love, love exists therefore God exists. It's meaningless.

The underlying neuronal mechanisms of decision making cannot be ignored. That's why the issue of free will is an issue of neuroscience; how the brain makes decisions, on what basis, the timing, etc.


My argument is only about the possibility of free will, not that it must exist.

That's fine.
 
When a road changed direction we call that a "curve" but according to your reasoning above we have both the curve and the road at the sane time; Curve would be just an extra nsme and therefore is unnecessary.

Do you realize how weird this sounds? There is a feature of the road that we call curve, it is in no way unnecessary. In the same way there is a feature of the brain called consciousness, it is in no way unnecessary.
And: we still dont know how it works.

Sure, in the scientific sense, there is a body and a consciousness. Nobody is going to argue with that because it's just a scientific term for a common human feature: Doctor asks me my name, where I am, date of birth, and if I answer coherently, check, I am conscious. This is the consciousness that nobody is arguing whether or not exists.

But then there is the philosophy of what the consciousness is:

"The Descriptive Question: What is consciousness? What are its principal features? And by what means can they be best discovered, described and modeled?

The Explanatory Question: How does consciousness of the relevant sort come to exist? Is it a primitive aspect of reality, and if not how does (or could) consciousness in the relevant respect arise from or be caused by nonconscious entities or processes?

The Functional Question: Why does consciousness of the relevant sort exist? Does it have a function, and if so what it is it? Does it act causally and if so with sorts of effects? Does it make a difference to the operation of systems in which it is present, and if so why and how?".

from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

What the *#%# was the meaning of this post?

It didnt explain your previous post at all.
 
You have given no reply.

This is the absolute bare bones conception and you avoid it like the plague.

What is consciousness?

Is it the brain? Is it some activity of the brain? Or is it something that arises out of some activity of the brain?

This is the starting point of any discussion about consciousness.

So stop dancing and just give one straight answer without all the handwaving.

Which of these is it? Just tell me which of the three it is. I don't need a dance.

There you go again, ignoring everything that I have said and provided, including evidence that it is indeed the brain that is generating mind/consciousness, which is accepted by practically all who work in the field.

Recall the sequence of events beginning with sensory input, the roles of neuronal structures, the consequences of chemical and structural changes and so on, for which I provided case studies and experiments....so even though it is not understood how the brain forms its internally generated conscious experience of the world, it is clear that the brain is doing it based on the available evidence.


You completely ignore all research, all evidence, that support brain agency and just assert your own version, whatever that happens to be because even when you are repeatedly asked to explain you ignore the requests, only to reset back to the start.

Now, once again; can you or can you not provide an explanation of your alternative model of mind?

This is unresponsive to my questions.

You have provided no model of a mind. None.

You have talked a bit about basic research and basic understanding of a tiny fraction of neural physiology.

That is miles from a model of a mind.

But this won't go any further if you ignore very simple questions.

Is the mind the brain? Is it some activity of the brain? Or is it something that arises from some activity of the brain?

I can't make it more simple for you.

Your continual dodging of these very simple questions is just evidence of your lack of any understanding.
 
It's almost as if you are disputing the coherence of terms like "we" make decisions or "I" make decisions in general. In other words, you should have the same argument whether the will is free or not.
But where does it collapse and why? If there is no reason for it to collapse to one choice over the other, then that is the freedom.


That's the reason why there are at least ten different interpretations of quantum wave function. In some there is no collapse, MW, in others collapse is due to macro scale interactions, gravity, etc. If that wasn't the case, nothing would have formed in the early stages of the BB, no particles, no stars, galaxies, planets, life on Earth.

Even heat collapses wave functions, but it doesn't get to choose where on the volume of probability densities.

Neither does the brain. Nor does conscious mind, nor does Conscious will whether someone hopes to call it 'free' will or not.


According to some compatibilists, it's even easier. At least I am trying to use a more personal and empowering approach.

Compatibalism fails to establish any form of actual freedom of will. It simply offers a semantic definition that doesn't relate to the decision making process. Similar to; God is love, love exists therefore God exists. It's meaningless.

The underlying neuronal mechanisms of decision making cannot be ignored. That's why the issue of free will is an issue of neuroscience; how the brain makes decisions, on what basis, the timing, etc.


My argument is only about the possibility of free will, not that it must exist.

That's fine.

That's where I am at. I see your side, but I also see mine. I am far far far from certain either way.
 
Sure, in the scientific sense, there is a body and a consciousness. Nobody is going to argue with that because it's just a scientific term for a common human feature: Doctor asks me my name, where I am, date of birth, and if I answer coherently, check, I am conscious. This is the consciousness that nobody is arguing whether or not exists.

But then there is the philosophy of what the consciousness is:

"The Descriptive Question: What is consciousness? What are its principal features? And by what means can they be best discovered, described and modeled?

The Explanatory Question: How does consciousness of the relevant sort come to exist? Is it a primitive aspect of reality, and if not how does (or could) consciousness in the relevant respect arise from or be caused by nonconscious entities or processes?

The Functional Question: Why does consciousness of the relevant sort exist? Does it have a function, and if so what it is it? Does it act causally and if so with sorts of effects? Does it make a difference to the operation of systems in which it is present, and if so why and how?".

from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

What the *#%# was the meaning of this post?

It didnt explain your previous post at all.

Well, the curve in the road is a physical feature; the philosophical consciousness is not. It is philosophical whether you can have a body without the mind, but how could you have the road without its curve?
 
This is unresponsive to my questions.

You have provided no model of a mind. None.

You have talked a bit about basic research and basic understanding of a tiny fraction of neural physiology.

That is miles from a model of a mind.

But this won't go any further if you ignore very simple questions.

Is the mind the brain? Is it some activity of the brain? Or is it something that arises from some activity of the brain?

I can't make it more simple for you.

Your continual dodging of these very simple questions is just evidence of your lack of any understanding.

So you can't offer an explanation for your version of mind?

As for me, did you not read what I said....that it isn't understood how the brain forms mind/consciousness?

That based on the available evidence it is quite clear that the brain is the generator of mind/consciousness. Which is not according to me, but the position that the majority of neuro-scientists hold.

One hypotheses being that consciousness is a property of patterns of firing being fed information from surrounding structures, enabling sense experience and associated feelings, thoughts and actions.

If you have something better, please, let's see your version of the nature, origin, function and relationship between mind and brain.
 
This is unresponsive to my questions.

You have provided no model of a mind. None.

You have talked a bit about basic research and basic understanding of a tiny fraction of neural physiology.

That is miles from a model of a mind.

But this won't go any further if you ignore very simple questions.

Is the mind the brain? Is it some activity of the brain? Or is it something that arises from some activity of the brain?

I can't make it more simple for you.

Your continual dodging of these very simple questions is just evidence of your lack of any understanding.

So you can't offer an explanation for your version of mind?

As for me, did you not read what I said....that it isn't understood how the brain forms mind/consciousness?

That based on the available evidence it is quite clear that the brain is the generator of mind/consciousness. Which is not according to me, but the position that the majority of neuro-scientists hold.

One hypotheses being that consciousness is a property of patterns of firing being fed information from surrounding structures, enabling sense experience and associated feelings, thoughts and actions.

If you have something better, please, let's see your version of the nature, origin, function and relationship between mind and brain.

Do you not understand the questions? Can you not read them?

All it requires is a one sentence answer.

Is consciousness the brain? Is it brain activity? Or is it something that arises out of brain activity?

One hypotheses being that consciousness is a property of patterns of firing being fed information from surrounding structures, enabling sense experience and associated feelings, thoughts and actions.

So it is something that arises from brain activity? You are as clear as mud.

How many times will you dodge this and provide evidence you have no serious position here?
 
...
In science, it is completely normal to say conscious as a verb and he has consciousness as a noun because it only means that the person is reacting coherently. The consciousness noun that I mean is more about the philosophical definition; the one we are talking about.
...

Just catching up on the discussion after the weekend.

Conscious isn't a verb, it's either a noun or an adjective:
any member of a class of words that modify nouns and pronouns, primarily by describing a particular quality of the word they are modifying ...

Consciousness is a noun, as you said.

Consciously is an adverb:
a word or phrase that modifies or qualifies an adjective, verb, or other adverb or a word group, expressing a relation of place, time, circumstance, manner, cause, degree, etc. (e.g., gently, quite, then, there ).

No, no, that's ok. I don't want any thanks.
 
Just catching up on the discussion after the weekend.

Conscious isn't a verb, it's either a noun or an adjective:
any member of a class of words that modify nouns and pronouns, primarily by describing a particular quality of the word they are modifying ...

Consciousness is a noun, as you said.

Consciously is an adverb:
a word or phrase that modifies or qualifies an adjective, verb, or other adverb or a word group, expressing a relation of place, time, circumstance, manner, cause, degree, etc. (e.g., gently, quite, then, there ).

No, no, that's ok. I don't want any thanks.

Right, it was a brain fart. I hope that is all I was wrong about. 😉
 
So you can't offer an explanation for your version of mind?

As for me, did you not read what I said....that it isn't understood how the brain forms mind/consciousness?

That based on the available evidence it is quite clear that the brain is the generator of mind/consciousness. Which is not according to me, but the position that the majority of neuro-scientists hold.

One hypotheses being that consciousness is a property of patterns of firing being fed information from surrounding structures, enabling sense experience and associated feelings, thoughts and actions.

If you have something better, please, let's see your version of the nature, origin, function and relationship between mind and brain.

Do you not understand the questions? Can you not read them?

Your questions are bogus. Bogus because you ignore what I actually say and just repeat questions that have no relationship whatsoever to what I have said all along.


All it requires is a one sentence answer.

Is consciousness the brain? Is it brain activity? Or is it something that arises out of brain activity?


Why don't you address what I said about that instead of asking the question again. It's not a one sentence reply because it's more complicated than that.

So for the hundredth time, it is not understood how the brain forms conscious experience, mind, thought, etc, but based on the evidence we have, it is clear that it is the brain that is forming mind whilst in an awake state and responding to sensory information or memory based reflections.

That is the answer. Deal with that. Don't repeat your strawman questions.


So it is something that arises from brain activity? You are as clear as mud.

I've already said that it mind is thought to be an attribute of neural activity, therefore mind is an experience formed from that activity. Deal with what I say. Don't repeat questions while ignoring the replies.

''Consciousness, as William James pointed out, is not a thing, but a process or stream that is changing on a time scale of fractions of seconds (1). As he emphasized, a fundamental aspect of the stream of consciousness is that it is highly unified or integrated. Integration is a property shared by every conscious experience irrespective of its specific content: Each conscious state comprises a single "scene" that cannot be decomposed into independent components (5). Integration is best appreciated by considering the impossibility of conceiving of a conscious scene that is not integrated, that is, one which is not experienced from a single point of view. A striking demonstration is given by split-brain patients performing a spatial memory task in which two independent sequences of visuospatial positions were presented, one to the left and one to the right hemisphere. In these patients, each hemisphere perceived a separate, simple visual problem and the subjects were able to solve the double task well. Normal subjects could not treat the two independent visual sequences as independent, parallel tasks. Instead, they combined the visual information into a single conscious scene and into a single, large problem that was much more difficult to solve.

In summary: Conventional approaches to understanding consciousness are generally concerned with the contribution of specific brain areas or groups of neurons. By contrast, the authors consider what kinds of neural processes can account for key properties of conscious experience. Applying measures of neural integration and complexity, together with an analysis of extensive neurological data, leads to a testable proposal -- the dynamic core hypothesis -- about the properties of the neural substrate of consciousness.''


Thalamocortical, Reticular, and Limbic systems.
Limbic or emotional networks simultaneously coordinate behavioral, autonomic, and endocrine adjustments required to maintain cellular homeostasis. Bonding, feeding, reproductive, fightor-
flight behaviors are accompanied by specific change in neurohormonal output
and autonomic discharge rates to the heart, immune system, and other viscera.

There are two triggering stimuli, which I mentioned earlier, that trigger emotional and visceral reactions. One is social environmental cues. Social environmental cues induce emotional and visceral reactions. And physiological stress, for
xample, asphyxia triggers visceral and emotional reactions. So in essence, the entire network serves as a large memory bank, learning from memory of previous experiences, and then reacting appropriately or inappropriately.


The insular cortex, orbital frontal, and mesocortex are activated by transient asphyxiation, by hypoglycemia, by hypothermic stress, and by electrolyte volume imbalances; and also by changes in arterial blood pressure. The mesocortex
receives its information from the viscera down below the board by way of the thalamus. The thalamus projects information to the mesocortex, which influences development of the cognitive neocortex by virtue of its reciprocity—its reciprocal interconnections. These structures form a closed reciprocally interconnected neurohumerally modulated loop involved in learning, memory, and conditioning''


The mesocortex is the perceptual and coding mechanism. It perceives information, especially information from the internal milieu, by way of connections with the visceral associational
areas. The activator of adaptive or maladaptive behaviors.''


How many times will you dodge this and provide evidence you have no serious position here?


I'm not the one dodging. How many times have you been asked to provide a description of your own model of mind/consciousness? Too many times.....and the result? Nothing, zilch, zip, nada.

It's clear that you have nothing to offer.
 
Just catching up on the discussion after the weekend.

Conscious isn't a verb, it's either a noun or an adjective:


Consciousness is a noun, as you said.

Consciously is an adverb:
a word or phrase that modifies or qualifies an adjective, verb, or other adverb or a word group, expressing a relation of place, time, circumstance, manner, cause, degree, etc. (e.g., gently, quite, then, there ).

No, no, that's ok. I don't want any thanks.

Right, it was a brain fart. I hope that is all I was wrong about. ??????


Which just goes to prove that it is in fact the state and condition of the brain in any given instance that determines how you perceive the world and how you respond to it.

The term 'free will' is an oxymoron
 
Just catching up on the discussion after the weekend.

Conscious isn't a verb, it's either a noun or an adjective:


Consciousness is a noun, as you said.

Consciously is an adverb:
a word or phrase that modifies or qualifies an adjective, verb, or other adverb or a word group, expressing a relation of place, time, circumstance, manner, cause, degree, etc. (e.g., gently, quite, then, there ).

No, no, that's ok. I don't want any thanks.

Right, it was a brain fart. I hope that is all I was wrong about. ������


Which just goes to prove that it is in fact the state and condition of the brain in any given instance that determines how you perceive the world and how you respond to it.

The term 'free will' is an oxymoron

"proof"?! come on
 
"proof"?! come on


If you could have done otherwise in that instance, or any instance, you surely would have.

We would all avoid errors and embarrassing or costly decisions, if we could. Decisions that may be regretted a moment after being made, but too late to avoid the consequences....that is not to say that good decisions are not made, but that both have the same source: the state and condition of the brain in the moment of decision making.

The proof lies in your example and your experience.
 
If you could have done otherwise in that instance, or any instance, you surely would have.
Unfortunately, freedom means freedom from preplanned intentions, freedom from your earlier self. But then again, some mistakes have better outcomes; that's how we learn.


You appear to be setting your own terms and definitions. What does ''freedom from your earlier self'' even mean?

If mind/self/consciousness is an expression of brain state/condition in any given instance in time, as it appears to be for the given reasons, earlier self is no less an expression of brain state/condition than is current self or future self.
 
I wish to choose to not choose. Explain how I can do that whilst my mind is being manipulated by the environment around me.

That has nothing to do with free will.

Free will is the ability to make free choices within the constraints of reality.

Talking about things removed from reality has nothing to do with free will.

Free will isn't constrained because I can't flap my arms and fly.

"within the constraints of reality"... hmm
It is perfectly "real" to be asked or not asked to move one's finger... this is not the same thing as being free to do 'impossible' things.

Are you free to have $200,000 available in your savings account? do it. choose to and do it if you are "free". Many thousands of other people have done this.

If one wishes to define "free will" to mean "free to do what you are able to do without too much difficulty" then I will agree that this tautology "exists". However meaningless that is.
 
Yes it is complex. Saying it is complex is just another dodge from acknowledgement of a clear observable phenomena.

Your words are empty nothingness and not an explanation or a coherent position.

If you didn't have a mind you could not understand what I am saying or try to form a response. Words and ideas are not fragments of some fragmented process. They are whole entities that must arise out of something capable of constructing and understanding them. We call that a mind.

Playing ostrich with it's head in the sand and pretending minds don't exist is not a logical position.

It is avoiding having one and then pretending avoidance is an answer.

A clear phenomena like grouping three things in a randomly patterned sky? Does that self referenced pattern make it a phenomena too?

Okham would say if it is so complex that we cannot adequately explain it it is better to say nothing at all or to say we don't know what it is. Do you understand the "Rings of Saturn" argument? Correlations increase when we add elements like the patterns of the rings of Saturn. Its in the math not in the world.

Assigning value to that which we cannot materially explain is like Trump saying "I know because I heard ...."

I understand awareness and I understand attention and I understand object s opposed to randomness. But I don't understand either a mind or a consciousness as a state of that mind that have no justification beyond "I heard it for an ancient". Self evidence isn't evidence.

As far as I'm concerned mind and consciousness are convenient fictions that arise out of whole cloth.

Look, Several months ago I wrote about research showing individuals constructed their views of the world around observations about others about them. If one changes the threat status of those individuals their views changed correspondingly. It was proposed that that is the reality we deal with as social animals. Manipulating those variables do lead to predictable changes in viewpoint consistent with the model that as social animals we deal with our surroundings, particularly those who makeup that social surrounding, as threatening. Your world is you you dealing with your perceived fears.
 
I understand awareness and I understand attention and I understand object s opposed to randomness. But I don't understand either a mind or a consciousness as a state of that mind that have no justification beyond "I heard it for an ancient". Self evidence isn't evidence.

As far as I'm concerned mind and consciousness are convenient fictions that arise out of whole cloth.

I don't really think there could be a bigger ignorance than to use ones mind to deny one has one.

You don't know attention if you can't tell me how the brain creates the things we can attend.

You know areas of the brain involved in certain processes.

That is barely knowing more than they occur in the brain.

Your "knowledge" is a scraping of the surface.

But of course the surface must be scraped before more can be seen, so there is nothing wrong with it. What is wrong is not knowing all you have done is scrape the surface.
 
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