Human Instinct and Free Will

[ryan]

Using my example, shouldn't the consciousness be included in with decision making since it sets up what future choices will be?

Why do you say ''consciousness sets up what future choices will be'' and not that it is the brain which sets up both the choices being made according to the state of its information base in that instance and the conscious representation of these choices in the form of conscious thoughts and deliberation in its global work space, while consciousness is being formed and generated? Which is a far more accurate description.

I don't understand what you are saying.

 

[DBT]

I'm saying that brain is the agent of consciousness. The latter having no agency in its own right.

 

[untermensche]

I don't know what you mean by "model of the mind"?

Nobody has a "model of the mind" in terms of how activity of the brain is translated into a mind and translated into the things a mind can be aware of.

A 'model' or 'work model' simply refers to a description, theory or hypothesis in relation to how something works...attributes, features, functions, abilities, mechanisms and so on. But you already know this. Your game is all about avoiding to give any sort of description, model or mechanism of mind.....yet continue to make the same claims over and over.....'I can move my finger at will'' - meanwhile ignoring actual experiments that show that multiple systems are involved in both movement intention and their associated motor actions.

I haven't ignored anything because none of that explains what a mind is and therefore what a mind can do.

We are just scratching the surface in our understanding of what the brain is doing. We are not near the end.

Nobody has even a hypothesis for how this happens.

So asking me to do what nobody has done is pretty ridiculous.

So why are you making any claims about mind, conscious intention and motor action whatsoever? You obviously have no idea. And worse, you ignore any understanding of the roles of various systems regarding mind/brain/volition that neuroscience has to offer.

Because the clear phenomena exists. I can move my finger, my whole body, at will. Experiments showing that there is a buildup of electrical activity in the muscle as the mind decides what to do confirms this.

And the hypothesis that the brain on it's own is just doing it and tricking the mind into thinking the mind is doing it is absurd and totally unexplained.

Why does the brain, not the mind, care if the finger moves during some experiment?

 

[untermensche]

I'm saying that brain is the agent of consciousness. The latter having no agency in its own right.

An absurd opinion.

We can clearly see how some compulsions to move are products of the mind.

I need that book. I will get up and get it.

The mind needs the book, not the brain. The brain doesn't know what a book is or that one exists. The mind has conceptions, a product of the brain, not the brain itself.

 

[fromderinside]

I'm saying that brain is the agent of consciousness. The latter having no agency in its own right.

An absurd opinion.

We can clearly see how some compulsions to move are products of the mind.

I need that book. I will get up and get it.

The mind needs the book, not the brain. The brain doesn't know what a book is or that one exists. The mind has conceptions, a product of the brain, not the brain itself.

So the 'mind' uses capabilities one has for communicating with others to communicate with oneself? I awake at night, am about half way to the bathroom, before I realize I need to pee. Not exactly a mind signalling intention is it. Kind of like a click results in my head turning toward the direction it arose. Seems to be more of a case of one talking to oneself reviewing whats taking/taken place. Looks like the 'mind' is an intervening variable used to rationalize action. Take Trump off the prompter and try to explain how his 'mind' is deciding. I mean he gets three words in and the topic changes to something sparked by the third word he said.

 

[untermensche]

An absurd opinion.

We can clearly see how some compulsions to move are products of the mind.

I need that book. I will get up and get it.

The mind needs the book, not the brain. The brain doesn't know what a book is or that one exists. The mind has conceptions, a product of the brain, not the brain itself.

So the 'mind' uses capabilities one has for communicating with others to communicate with oneself? I awake at night, am about half way to the bathroom, before I realize I need to pee. Not exactly a mind signalling intention is it. Kind of like a click results in my head turning toward the direction it arose. Seems to be more of a case of one talking to oneself reviewing whats taking/taken place. Looks like the 'mind' is an intervening variable used to rationalize action. Take Trump off the prompter and try to explain how his 'mind' is deciding. I mean he gets three words in and the topic changes to something sparked by the third word he said.

If you watched the video I provided you will see it is not likely that the language capacity is something that evolved as a means of communication. Most likely it arose as a means of thought and it can be transmitted with the voice or with hand gestures equally as well.

And I doubt very much you have arisen at night and are not aware of it, most likely your short term memory is not engaged and you do not remember. All I can say is that it is a phenomena I have no experience with. And really nothing that can be examined scientifically.

 

[Juma]

And really nothing that can be examined scientifically.

Why not? That is just a question of designing a suitable test scenario and design appropriate apparatus. No, principal problems.

 

[untermensche]

And really nothing that can be examined scientifically.

Why not? That is just a question of designing a suitable test scenario and design appropriate apparatus. No, principal problems.

How do you prove the mind is not aware of something?

How do you get somebody to do this?

If he is navigating then the eyes are working.

But as a child I remember falling out of bed a few times, so obviously my brain wasn't very aware of the bed.

 

[ryan]

I'm saying that brain is the agent of consciousness. The latter having no agency in its own right.

But it would seem that the consciousness at least filters or directs choices based on different reactions to different experiences.

 

[DBT]

I'm saying that brain is the agent of consciousness. The latter having no agency in its own right.

But it would seem that the consciousness at least filters or directs choices based on different reactions to different experiences.

How? How can consciousness do something independently, over and above, separately, etc, to what the very brain activity that shapes and forms and feeds information into its own 'global work space/conscious mind' is already doing?

How is it possible?

 

[DBT]

I'm saying that brain is the agent of consciousness. The latter having no agency in its own right.

An absurd opinion.

We can clearly see how some compulsions to move are products of the mind.

I need that book. I will get up and get it.

The mind needs the book, not the brain. The brain doesn't know what a book is or that one exists. The mind has conceptions, a product of the brain, not the brain itself.

What is absurd is ignoring all the evidence we have pertaining to conscious volition and movement intention and persisting with some vague notions of mind that bear no relationship to what the evidence is telling us....which happens to be the position you hold.

A waste of time, however:

Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

 

[untermensche]

An absurd opinion.

We can clearly see how some compulsions to move are products of the mind.

I need that book. I will get up and get it.

The mind needs the book, not the brain. The brain doesn't know what a book is or that one exists. The mind has conceptions, a product of the brain, not the brain itself.

What is absurd is ignoring all the evidence we have pertaining to conscious volition and movement intention and persisting with some vague notions of mind that bear no relationship to what the evidence is telling us....which happens to be the position you hold.

A waste of time, however:

Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

There is no vague notion of mind.

There is absolute knowledge of mind.

The thing that is known best by every human with one.

You completely ignore my point. I waste my time dealing with you.

And introducing electrical stimulation into the brain has nothing to do with the normal functioning of the brain.

 

[Juma]

There is no vague notion of mind.

There is absolute knowledge of mind.

The thing that is known best by every human with one.

Then how come that hou utterly fail to define what "mind" is?

 

[untermensche]

There is no vague notion of mind.

There is absolute knowledge of mind.

The thing that is known best by every human with one.

Then how come that hou utterly fail to define what "mind" is?

That's like asking people who experienced gravity for centuries why they didn't come up with Newton's theories.

 

[DBT]

What is absurd is ignoring all the evidence we have pertaining to conscious volition and movement intention and persisting with some vague notions of mind that bear no relationship to what the evidence is telling us....which happens to be the position you hold.

A waste of time, however:

Movement Intention After Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans;
''Parietal and premotor cortex regions are serious contenders for bringing motor intentions and motor responses into awareness. We used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Stimulating the right inferior parietal regions triggered a strong intention and desire to move the contralateral hand, arm, or foot, whereas stimulating the left inferior parietal region provoked the intention to move the lips and to talk. When stimulation intensity was increased in parietal areas, participants believed they had really performed these movements, although no electromyographic activity was detected. Stimulation of the premotor region triggered overt mouth and contralateral limb movements. Yet, patients firmly denied that they had moved. Conscious intention and motor awareness thus arise from increased parietal activity before movement execution.''

A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of. Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

There is no vague notion of mind.

There is absolute knowledge of mind.

The thing that is known best by every human with one.

You completely ignore my point. I waste my time dealing with you.

And introducing electrical stimulation into the brain has nothing to do with the normal functioning of the brain.

You waste your own time peddling notions that you yourself can't explain, meanwhile ignoring all understanding of brain/mind function that has been gained through experiments and case studies of brain conditions. Even after is has been shown that intention of movement, your finger example, involves the activation of multiple systems before you (conscious mind/brain activity) are aware of the urge to move your finger.

 

[Juma]

Then how come that hou utterly fail to define what "mind" is?

That's like asking people who experienced gravity for centuries why they didn't come up with Newton's theories.

Nope. Difference being that there is something that can be called gravity whinst "mind" is just what you experience.

 

[untermensche]

There is no vague notion of mind.

There is absolute knowledge of mind.

The thing that is known best by every human with one.

You completely ignore my point. I waste my time dealing with you.

And introducing electrical stimulation into the brain has nothing to do with the normal functioning of the brain.

You waste your own time peddling notions that you yourself can't explain, meanwhile ignoring all understanding of brain/mind function that has been gained through experiments and case studies of brain conditions. Even after is has been shown that intention of movement, your finger example, involves the activation of multiple systems before you (conscious mind/brain activity) are aware of the urge to move your finger.

You haven't shown me anything about what happens in a person that just decides to move their finger at will.

You have shown me what happens to people when they are anticipating having to move in the near future in some artificial setting.

And your depiction of the mind as a vague notion is laughable.

As I said it is the thing a human knows best.

And you completely ignore what you (your mind) want to ignore, like this:

This conclusion assumes that the readiness potential is the signature of the brain planning and preparing to move. “Even people who have been critical of Libet’s work, by and large, haven’t challenged that assumption,” says Aaron Schurger of the National Institute of Health and Medical Research in Saclay, France.

One attempt to do so came in 2009. Judy Trevena and Jeff Miller of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand, asked volunteers to decide, after hearing a tone, whether or not to tap on a keyboard. The readiness potential was present regardless of their decision, suggesting that it did not represent the brain preparing to move. Exactly what it did mean, though, still wasn’t clear.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22144-brain-might-not-stand-in-the-way-of-free-will/

- - - Updated - - -

That's like asking people who experienced gravity for centuries why they didn't come up with Newton's theories.

Nope. Difference being that there is something that can be called gravity whinst "mind" is just what you experience.

If something is experienced then it exists.

As an experience.

Just as real as gravity.

The point stands.

 

[ryan]

But it would seem that the consciousness at least filters or directs choices based on different reactions to different experiences.

How? How can consciousness do something independently, over and above, separately, etc, to what the very brain activity that shapes and forms and feeds information into its own 'global work space/conscious mind' is already doing?

How is it possible?

I didn't say that it had to be independent from the brain. I am assuming that the consciousness is a part of the brain. It seems that you are the one separating the consciousness from the brain.

 

[DBT]

How? How can consciousness do something independently, over and above, separately, etc, to what the very brain activity that shapes and forms and feeds information into its own 'global work space/conscious mind' is already doing?

How is it possible?

I didn't say that it had to be independent from the brain. I am assuming that the consciousness is a part of the brain. It seems that you are the one separating the consciousness from the brain.

You didn't say it was independent, but it was implied in what you said. As for the latter, I have no idea how you come to think that, considering what I have said about brain agency. You must be joking.

 

[DBT]

You waste your own time peddling notions that you yourself can't explain, meanwhile ignoring all understanding of brain/mind function that has been gained through experiments and case studies of brain conditions. Even after is has been shown that intention of movement, your finger example, involves the activation of multiple systems before you (conscious mind/brain activity) are aware of the urge to move your finger.

You haven't shown me anything about what happens in a person that just decides to move their finger at will.

You have shown me what happens to people when they are anticipating having to move in the near future in some artificial setting.

And your depiction of the mind as a vague notion is laughable.

As I said it is the thing a human knows best.

And you completely ignore what you (your mind) want to ignore, like this:

This conclusion assumes that the readiness potential is the signature of the brain planning and preparing to move. “Even people who have been critical of Libet’s work, by and large, haven’t challenged that assumption,” says Aaron Schurger of the National Institute of Health and Medical Research in Saclay, France.

One attempt to do so came in 2009. Judy Trevena and Jeff Miller of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand, asked volunteers to decide, after hearing a tone, whether or not to tap on a keyboard. The readiness potential was present regardless of their decision, suggesting that it did not represent the brain preparing to move. Exactly what it did mean, though, still wasn’t clear.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22144-brain-might-not-stand-in-the-way-of-free-will/

You don't realise that your quote actually supports all that I have been saying about the sequence of events leading to conscious report?

And yes, sure, there are people who are trying to salvage the notion of free will regardless of the evidence stacked up against it....but the best that can be achieved is a purely semantic construct.

You could say ''free will is the ability to move your finger at will'' - which is what you do - ''I can move my finger at will, therefore free will exists'' - which is what you do.

But this means nothing because your definition does not take the actual process of agency into account. You only consider conscious experience and ignore its means of production; the state and condition of the brain producing you and your experience.

That is where any claim to free will fails to establish anything more than a word salad, a game of semantics. The moon is yellow, cheese is yellow, therefore the moon is made of cheese....