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Human shields in Gaza: More evidence of what Hamas was doing

Loren Pechtel said:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4706/gazan-hamas-war-crimes

Leave when Israel warns of incoming bombs? Hamas would shoot you.

There's some other really nasty things in there also.
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Ah, the old human shield argument! Yay!

So, if the human shield argument is a valid argument, doesn't this mean that Palestinians are morally justified in slaughtering as many Jewish settlers as they feel like? After all, they are "human shields" who deliberately put themselves in harm's way in order to achieve a political goal. That means their lives have no value and they can be slaughtered at whim by anyone who doesn't share their political aims, at least according to your logic.
 
I find these type of threads rather wrongheaded. Most people agree it is wrong to kill civilians. In this thread, the OP gives the example of "You can be killed by an Israeli bomb or by Hamas" as if that somehow exonerates the IDF. It exonerates neither the IDF nor Hamas from the killing of those civilians.
 
You oppress people for decades and you end up with groups like Hamas.

The oppressor is responsible for ALL consequences of their oppression.

The oppressed are not responsible, they do not have their full rights.
 
Wow Loren is citing the Gatestone Institute headed by John Bolton a chickenhawk with a hard-on for killing brown people! There's a surprise.
 
As ld points out, two wrongs don't make a right.

And as could be pointed out, the military incursion didn't end Hamas... again.
 
7 replies, nobody interested in what Hamas is doing. Why am I not surprised?
 
Loren Pechtel said:
7 replies, nobody interested in what Hamas is doing. Why am I not surprised?
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Let's see.

There is this very powerful nation that has been crushing millions for decades.

And there is an expected human response.

Why don't we want to focus on the response to oppression?

Probably because we can't do a damn thing about it.

But the oppression. That we could possibly have an effect on.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
7 replies, nobody interested in what Hamas is doing. Why am I not surprised?
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My guess is you're not surprised because the people who usually respond to your posts have been telling you for years that the crimes of Hamas do not expunge the crimes of Israel. You knew how we would respond to your most recent Tu Quoque before you clicked on the Post New Thread tab.

Killing civilians is wrong. It's wrong when Hamas does it. It's wrong when the IDF does it.

Making terroristic death threats targeting civilians who remain in/leave their homes is wrong, and carrying them out is even more wrong. It's wrong when Hamas does it. It's wrong when the IDF does it. It's wrong when anybody does it.
 
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Reply number twelve

Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
7 replies, nobody interested in what Hamas is doing. Why am I not surprised?
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My guess is you're not surprised because the people who usually respond to your posts have been telling you for years that the crimes of Hamas do not expunge the crimes of Israel. You knew how we would respond to your most recent Tu Quoque before you clicked on the Post New Thread tab.

Killing civilians is wrong. It's wrong when Hamas does it. It's wrong when the IDF does it.

Making terroristic death threats targeting civilians who remain in/leave their homes is wrong, and carrying them out is even more wrong. It's wrong when Hamas does it. It's wrong when the IDF does it. It's wrong when anybody does it.
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Did you listen to the Charley Rose interview of a Hamas leader at the height of the last IDF invasion? Do you know what he said? Do you know the names of the people who set up the human shields for the Israelis to murder? Who are they and what were they saying and doing?

Did you hear our illustrious leader define our interests for us and threaten to "hunt down and kill" the enemies of American big oil. These ISIS people are not about to come over here and kill Americans. Obomber's speech is pure projection and a cowardly politician's response. He is trying to buy the approval of the American people to do the same kind of murdering as was done by the IDF in Gaza. He is being dishonest with the American people and is justifying it to himself with still more state secrets. If we leave it up to him and the generals, the military suppliers will accrue even more wealth than they already have and THERE WILL BE BOOTS ON THE GROUND.:thinking:

The problem with letting the Israeli war crimes go is that it becomes more and more acceptable to do things like they did in Gaza and we will be replicating it in other situations...just a different bogey man.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
7 replies, nobody interested in what Hamas is doing. Why am I not surprised?
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The world's just chock full of tender situations, eh? I suppose you chucked your coffee cup this morning, in complete dismay, after reading that it's been legal to discharge fracking wastewater into the Pacific. Think of the helpless and defenseless sea otters chomping on gobs of strontium, barium and benzene! Among other chemical constituents! OH MY GOD!
The fun just never ends, does it? When's the last time you visited the area? I hear Palestine is lovely this time of year.
 
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
7 replies, nobody interested in what Hamas is doing. Why am I not surprised?
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My guess is you're not surprised because the people who usually respond to your posts have been telling you for years that the crimes of Hamas do not expunge the crimes of Israel. You knew how we would respond to your most recent Tu Quoque before you clicked on the Post New Thread tab.
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The point is an unknown but substantial number of those "civilian" deaths were caused by Hamas. Just because you blame Israel for them doesn't make it so.

Making terroristic death threats targeting civilians who remain in/leave their homes is wrong, and carrying them out is even more wrong. It's wrong when Hamas does it. It's wrong when the IDF does it. It's wrong when anybody does it.
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The reality of military operations is that civilians standing on a military target tend to die. That's not a war crime. We have here Hamas forcing civilians to stand on military targets and none of you care.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
My guess is you're not surprised because the people who usually respond to your posts have been telling you for years that the crimes of Hamas do not expunge the crimes of Israel. You knew how we would respond to your most recent Tu Quoque before you clicked on the Post New Thread tab.
Click to expand...

The point is an unknown but substantial number of those "civilian" deaths were caused by Hamas. Just because you blame Israel for them doesn't make it so.
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And just because you blame Hamas doesn't make it so.

Making terroristic death threats targeting civilians who remain in/leave their homes is wrong, and carrying them out is even more wrong. It's wrong when Hamas does it. It's wrong when the IDF does it. It's wrong when anybody does it.
Click to expand...

The reality of military operations is that civilians standing on a military target tend to die. That's not a war crime. We have here Hamas forcing civilians to stand on military targets and none of you care.
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Military operations against civilians is a war crime no matter how you want to spin it. Israel making terroristic death threats against civilians and then carrying through on them is a war crime, just as it's a war crime when Hamas does the same.

No double standards. Things are war crimes based on the nature of the deed, not on who is doing it to whom. If Israel decides to blow up an apartment building full of civilians, the responsibility for that choice and the resulting death toll is Israel's. If Hamas decides to blow up a bus full of civilians, the responsibility for that choice and the resulting death toll is Hamas'. If the US decides to drone strike a wedding party full of civilians, the responsibility for that choice and the resulting death toll belongs to the good old USA.
 
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Arctish said:
Military operations against civilians is a war crime no matter how you want to spin it. Israel making terroristic death threats against civilians and then carrying through on them is a war crime, just as it's a war crime when Hamas does the same.

No double standards. Things are war crimes based on the nature of the deed, not on who is doing it to whom. If Israel decides to blow up an apartment building full of civilians, the responsibility for that choice and the resulting death toll is Israel's. If Hamas decides to blow up a bus full of civilians, the responsibility for that choice and the resulting death toll is Hamas'. If the US decides to drone strike a wedding party full of civilians, the responsibility for that choice and the resulting death toll belongs to the good old USA.
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Where has there been a war crime prosecution for the death of civilians that were on military objectives at the time they were hit??

What you are missing is that the military nature of a target trumps any civilian nature of the target. When something is used for military purposes it becomes a valid target, period. There are no qualifications on this. The presence of civilians does not change this.

Military target: Valid.
No military target: Not valid.

You only see the wedding party. You don't see the meeting of the terrorist commanders that used the wedding as cover.
 
Arctish said:
Military operations against civilians is a war crime no matter how you want to spin it.
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Sometimes you have to look at the circumstances that led up to that killing.

The bombing of Dresden occurred after years of fierce war where the outcome was many times in doubt.

The firebombing of dozens of Japanese cities and the atomic bombs come after years of the same.

And the fate of Palestinians in Gaza is just as much in doubt.

It is very easy when you are not being oppressed and attacked if any amount of resistance is shown to say what is absolutely moral and immoral.
 
I still can't believe that your justification for the attempted ethnic cleansing of an entire people, is based on the fact that people who get bombed a lot don't always react well.
 
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