Human shields in Gaza: The UN is part of the problem

[Loren Pechtel]

The oppression is real.

This so-called war is imaginary.

It's a nebulous spirit that washes everything away. The blockade. The endless incursions and kidnappings and rapes and murders and destruction of homes. The strangulation of the economy. The limitation of food and medicine. The use of weapons when any reasonable person would know civilians will be killed.

All of this is oppression, not war.

Calling the war imaginary doesn't make it so.

Blockade is a legitimate act of war.

There are only incursions when Hamas attacks.

I haven't heard of a kidnapping by the Israelis. Arrests are not kidnapping.

While I suspect there are rapes (there's enough people involved that it would be unlikely there weren't any) I haven't heard of any.

Killing in war is not murder.

You have half a point about the destruction of homes.

Strangling the enemy economy is a legitimate act of war, and besides most of that strangling comes from Hamas.

Playing a Goebbels about supposed restrictions on food & medicine doesn't make it so.

The death of civilians in attacks on military targets is a normal part of war and is not considered a war crime.

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You just proved that you don't know what it is.

The great irony is that you just reconfirmed you don't know what terrorism is with that response

You continue to think that attacks that hurt civilians are terrorism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The IDF is attacking Hamas, not civilians. Unfortunately, Hamas goes to great lengths to get civilians into the blast zone.

As for choosing to move--we're talking about kids. They undoubtedly didn't even know the situation. Their caretakers are responsible for leaving them in harm's way despite being warned. Furthermore, their explicit purpose in doing so was to hinder the Israeli invasion--thus human shields, not merely despicable inaction.

Your entire argument rests on the notion that the Israelis were guaranteed to kill those children if the UN didn't move them, so by not moving them the UN caretakers were either criminally negligent or downright evil. If I accept your argument I must conclude the IDF are baby-killers, you know they're baby-killers, and you fully support the killing of babies.

I don't accept your argument, though. I think there was a very good chance the IDF would respect a UN shelter and not kill the children huddled inside. I think it was a good enough chance that the safest thing those caretakers could have done was keep the kids off the streets and make sure the IDF knew the building was a shelter with civilians inside.

No. They were being put at undue and avoidable risk.

It is a perfectly acceptable act in wartime to tell people to get out/keep out of combat zones. On the high seas it can go even farther--navies can declare exclusion zones around their operations in which intruders will be considered hostile.

The problem is that Hamas does not respect the shelters. They do the exact opposite--deliberately attack from as close to them as they can get. When Israel shoots at Hamas sometimes the people in the shelters get hit.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you have no skin in the game (INVESTMENT IN WAR PRODUCTION OR PERHAPS SOME KIND OF JOB LOBBYING FOR ISRAEL) then I have to conclude you are simply a racist who hates Arabs or Muslims in general. Your moral arguments make swiss cheese seem solid. The IDF should have NO RIGHT WHATEVER TO FORCE U.N. PERSONNEL TO VACATE THEIR FACILITIES. THE IDF HAS NO RIGHT TO KILL CHILDREN AND WOMEN AND OLD PEOPLE....NO RIGHT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? There were no secondary explosions when the IDF turned its guns on the U.N. schools.

I don't hate Arabs. I don't hate Muslims. My problem is with the fundamentalist Muslims that seek to impose their ways on everyone else. I'm judging them on behavior, not race.

You know damned good and well there were no armaments in those buildings. You know those buildings were in no way part of the Hamas command and control structure. You still have to give me some explanation why you cannot suggest any way to reduce the violence of the IDF and insist it must continue. That makes you essentially the same as you claim Hamas is in this conflict.

And why should I know there are no weapons there? Again and again Israel found weapons in UN facilities in Gaza. Furthermore, what normally happened was Israel was shooting at Hamas rocketeers, not the building itself.

As for continuing the conflict--remember the old adage about the frying pan and the fire. All I see from your side is continual claims that the fire is cool, jump!

 

[untermensche]

There are only incursions when Hamas attacks.

This is a lie. Israel makes constant incursions and constant arrests without charges or trials.

The last one was after the kidnapping and killing of the three settlers. Israel knew they were dead and was pretty sure Hamas was not involved. But Israel still launched an incursion, made unjustified arrests and destroyed homes.

It had absolutely nothing to do with any attack from Hamas.

Simply telling lies is not in the least persuasive.

I haven't heard of a kidnapping by the Israelis. Arrests are not kidnapping.

Disappearing people without charges, trial, or giving anybody the knowledge of their location is kidnapping. And Israel does it all the time.

And not only kidnapping but torture of the kidnapped.

Israel holds no moral high ground to anybody.

 

[Togo]

Israel also assassinates people without trial.

 

[laughing dog]

You continue to think that attacks that hurt civilians are terrorism.

You have no idea what I think. Using applying your logic, the IDF murders civilians and engages in terrorism.

 

[Togo]

You continue to think that attacks that hurt civilians are terrorism.

You have no idea what I think. Using applying your logic, the IDF murders civilians and engages in terrorism.

That is the result of applying the reasoning Loren has presented.

 

[Jayjay]

This is a lie. Israel makes constant incursions and constant arrests without charges or trials.

The last one was after the kidnapping and killing of the three settlers. Israel knew they were dead and was pretty sure Hamas was not involved. But Israel still launched an incursion, made unjustified arrests and destroyed homes.

Israel didn't know they were dead. You can't assume that a phone call that has a few gun shots is sufficient reason to think they were killed. Imagine if your son or wife or mother was kidnapped, and they managed to call the police, and then there was a gunshot heard on the phone line. Would you be satisfied if the police just said, "yup, they're probably dead, so we won't investigate?" The Israeli reaction was justified because Hamas chose to kidnap the teenagers, rather than simple murder. Your point about excessive reaction is only valid as far as the actions after the bodies were found are concerned.

As for being pretty sure that it wasn't Hamas, that's exactly the opposite. Israel said they were sure that it was Hamas from the beginning. And now a senior Hamas member has publicly admitted that they were right.

And it was Hamas who started the ruckus in Gaza. Israel had made no incursions to Gaza until Hamas started firing rockets.

 

[untermensche]

When the boys realized that the Hyundai passengers were not Jews but terrorists, one of them succeeded in calling the police emergency call center and whispered, "We've been kidnapped." In the recording of that phone call, one of the abductors was heard shouting in Hebrew, "Heads down!" Then there were sounds of shouting, volleys from an automatic weapon and a weak voice sighing "Ai," of someone who was injured. This was followed by another volley of shots from an automatic weapon, and the boys fell silent. Then the murderers burst out singing.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/misleading-kidnapping-almoz-hamas-vengeance-hatred.html
Israel was near certain the boys were dead. But they issued a gag order of that fact so they could launch an unjustified incursion.

 

[Jayjay]

When the boys realized that the Hyundai passengers were not Jews but terrorists, one of them succeeded in calling the police emergency call center and whispered, "We've been kidnapped." In the recording of that phone call, one of the abductors was heard shouting in Hebrew, "Heads down!" Then there were sounds of shouting, volleys from an automatic weapon and a weak voice sighing "Ai," of someone who was injured. This was followed by another volley of shots from an automatic weapon, and the boys fell silent. Then the murderers burst out singing.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/misleading-kidnapping-almoz-hamas-vengeance-hatred.html
Israel was near certain the boys were dead. But they issued a gag order of that fact so they could launch an unjustified incursion.

The scenario above could be warning shots. Or one person getting killed and others being gagged. It's impossible to tell. Besides, if Hamas wasn't getting them alive, they were going to hide the bodies and use the ambiguity as bargaining chip like Hezbollah did in 2006 to 2007 when traded dead soldiers to free one Palestinian. Israel can't reasonably risk that just on a hunch based on shots being fired.

 

[Togo]

And now a senior Hamas member has publicly admitted that they were right.

If you actually read your source, rather than simply accept the headline or commentary, you will discover that this is not the case.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is a lie. Israel makes constant incursions and constant arrests without charges or trials.

The last one was after the kidnapping and killing of the three settlers. Israel knew they were dead and was pretty sure Hamas was not involved. But Israel still launched an incursion, made unjustified arrests and destroyed homes.

1) Where are these constant incursions you refer to? About all they're frequently doing is repulsing border probes. (And Hamas sends unarmed people to probe--thus they can pretend they were civilians.)

2) It would be strange for Israel to know that Hamas was not involved when they were. That was a Hamas-funded operation.

I haven't heard of a kidnapping by the Israelis. Arrests are not kidnapping.

Disappearing people without charges, trial, or giving anybody the knowledge of their location is kidnapping. And Israel does it all the time.

Evidence there are people being held without trial???

I do agree that arrests are often kept quiet at first--if you're trying to sweep up a bunch of suspects you don't want them alerting others that haven't been picked up yet. That's normal police procedure anywhere.

And not only kidnapping but torture of the kidnapped.

1) You need to show torture.

2) It's perfectly legal to torture a spy or saboteur anyway.

Israel holds no moral high ground to anybody.

Do you live in a world of inverted gravity?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When the boys realized that the Hyundai passengers were not Jews but terrorists, one of them succeeded in calling the police emergency call center and whispered, "We've been kidnapped." In the recording of that phone call, one of the abductors was heard shouting in Hebrew, "Heads down!" Then there were sounds of shouting, volleys from an automatic weapon and a weak voice sighing "Ai," of someone who was injured. This was followed by another volley of shots from an automatic weapon, and the boys fell silent. Then the murderers burst out singing.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/misleading-kidnapping-almoz-hamas-vengeance-hatred.html
Israel was near certain the boys were dead. But they issued a gag order of that fact so they could launch an unjustified incursion.

1) They issued a gag order because they didn't want the families being told they were dead until they were sure they were dead.

2) As always you're ignoring what Hamas did. Actual timeline:

I) Kidnappings.
II) Massive manhunt for the kidnappers.
III) Hamas rocket barrage in response to the manhunt.
IV) Incursion in response to the rockets.

Note that as always the trigger event was Hamas, not Israel. The rocket barrages are basically not news, however.

 

[Jayjay]

And now a senior Hamas member has publicly admitted that they were right.

If you actually read your source, rather than simply accept the headline or commentary, you will discover that this is not the case.

I did. This was discussed even on this forum a while back. One of Hamas's founding members, who had in fact been organizing and encouraging such kidnappings, bragged that it was conducted by Hamas fighters. What else do you need to see the obvious?

 

[Togo]

If you actually read your source, rather than simply accept the headline or commentary, you will discover that this is not the case.

I did. This was discussed even on this forum a while back. One of Hamas's founding members, who had in fact been organizing and encouraging such kidnappings, bragged that it was conducted by Hamas fighters. What else do you need to see the obvious?

I'd need to see that he was correct, rather than simply taking credit for actions against Israel, which is his job. Is he normally someone who you would trust, or are you choosing to believe him because it suits you?

My understanding was that the kidnapping was carried out by a fringe militant brigade, rather than being organised by Hamas proper. You can blame it on Hamas of course, just as you can blame actions by militant settler groups on Israel. If you don't then your source is inaccurate. If you do then the timeline is:

i) Various violations of the ceasefire including missle strikes into Gaza
ii) Kidnapping of three Israeli settlers in the West Bank
iii) Counter-kidnapping and public lynchings - 7 Palestinians killed
iv) Massive Manhunt for kidnappers of Israeli settlers
v) Rocket attack from Hamas
vi) Israel invades Gaza

You can argue either way, but please be consistent.

 

[untermensche]

1) Where are these constant incursions you refer to? About all they're frequently doing is repulsing border probes. (And Hamas sends unarmed people to probe--thus they can pretend they were civilians.)

2) It would be strange for Israel to know that Hamas was not involved when they were. That was a Hamas-funded operation.

I haven't heard of a kidnapping by the Israelis. Arrests are not kidnapping.

Disappearing people without charges, trial, or giving anybody the knowledge of their location is kidnapping. And Israel does it all the time.

Evidence there are people being held without trial???

I do agree that arrests are often kept quiet at first--if you're trying to sweep up a bunch of suspects you don't want them alerting others that haven't been picked up yet. That's normal police procedure anywhere.

And not only kidnapping but torture of the kidnapped.

1) You need to show torture.

2) It's perfectly legal to torture a spy or saboteur anyway.

Israel holds no moral high ground to anybody.

Do you live in a world of inverted gravity?

With your complete ignorance as to what is happening I suppose it is not surprising you hold these opinions.

Do your own research before you claim to know something.

For decades Israel has been periodically kidnapping and torturing Palestinians without charges or trial.

Do some research. It is all out there is you actually cared to know the truth.

You could start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Where are these constant incursions you refer to? About all they're frequently doing is repulsing border probes. (And Hamas sends unarmed people to probe--thus they can pretend they were civilians.)

2) It would be strange for Israel to know that Hamas was not involved when they were. That was a Hamas-funded operation.

I haven't heard of a kidnapping by the Israelis. Arrests are not kidnapping.

Disappearing people without charges, trial, or giving anybody the knowledge of their location is kidnapping. And Israel does it all the time.

Evidence there are people being held without trial???

I do agree that arrests are often kept quiet at first--if you're trying to sweep up a bunch of suspects you don't want them alerting others that haven't been picked up yet. That's normal police procedure anywhere.

And not only kidnapping but torture of the kidnapped.

1) You need to show torture.

2) It's perfectly legal to torture a spy or saboteur anyway.

Israel holds no moral high ground to anybody.

Do you live in a world of inverted gravity?

With your complete ignorance as to what is happening I suppose it is not surprising you hold these opinions.

Do your own research before you claim to know something.

For decades Israel has been periodically kidnapping and torturing Palestinians without charges or trial.

Do some research. It is all out there is you actually cared to know the truth.

You could start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

That article is heavily slanted as usual for Wikipedia.

The only people that would class as held without trial are those in administrative detention--and that's not proving that they're being held without trial. Remember, one doesn't get tried the instant one is arrested. Often one is not even charged at first. I notice nothing on that page saying how long any given individual was in detention--and without that it looks like how anybody else's system works.

 

[Sabine Grant]

By Loren :That article is heavily slanted as usual for Wikipedia.

If that "usual", I have to wonder why you have been observed linking to Wiki.

I just could not resist.....

 

[Underseer]

1) Where are these constant incursions you refer to? About all they're frequently doing is repulsing border probes. (And Hamas sends unarmed people to probe--thus they can pretend they were civilians.)

2) It would be strange for Israel to know that Hamas was not involved when they were. That was a Hamas-funded operation.

I haven't heard of a kidnapping by the Israelis. Arrests are not kidnapping.

Disappearing people without charges, trial, or giving anybody the knowledge of their location is kidnapping. And Israel does it all the time.

Evidence there are people being held without trial???

I do agree that arrests are often kept quiet at first--if you're trying to sweep up a bunch of suspects you don't want them alerting others that haven't been picked up yet. That's normal police procedure anywhere.

And not only kidnapping but torture of the kidnapped.

1) You need to show torture.

2) It's perfectly legal to torture a spy or saboteur anyway.

Israel holds no moral high ground to anybody.

Do you live in a world of inverted gravity?

With your complete ignorance as to what is happening I suppose it is not surprising you hold these opinions.

Do your own research before you claim to know something.

For decades Israel has been periodically kidnapping and torturing Palestinians without charges or trial.

Do some research. It is all out there is you actually cared to know the truth.

You could start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

That article is heavily slanted as usual for Wikipedia.

[....]

Uh, why are you complaining about that? Isn't this why your fellow rightists created Conservapedia? That way, instead of getting biased information, you can get information that's Fair And Balanced^TM.

 

[untermensche]

That article is heavily slanted as usual for Wikipedia.

The only people that would class as held without trial are those in administrative detention--and that's not proving that they're being held without trial. Remember, one doesn't get tried the instant one is arrested. Often one is not even charged at first. I notice nothing on that page saying how long any given individual was in detention--and without that it looks like how anybody else's system works.

What contortions one must go through to pretend that people held without charges or trial are really held with charges and trial.