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Hypothetical affirmative action scenario

Which of these are, in your opinion, racist?

  • Option A

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • Option B

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • Option C

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • Option D

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • Option E

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • Option F

    Votes: 3 42.9%
  • All of the above

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • None of the above

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7

ruby sparks

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So....you live on a small planet that only has two 'races'. One is green-skinned and the other is blue-skinned. About 85% of the population is green-skinned, the remaining 15% are blue-skinned. They refer to themselves as greens and blues respectively.

For historical reasons, the greens are generally, on average, much wealthier, better-educated, more privileged and so on. They also hold many more of the positions of power, status and/or influence. They represent, effectively, the hegemony, as least statistically, though to be fair, much less so than in the past, because things have improved a lot for the blues, and there are privileged, wealthy, educated blues as well as poor, uneducated unprivileged greens. But on the whole, it is most often still an advantage to be green rather than blue, all other things being equal.

Imagine a scenario in which, in a particular jurisdiction or 'state' on the planet, the population mix is mostly blues, or is at least something more like equal numbers of greens and blues. But the politicians and the law enforcers are 95% greens. And there is evidence that there is bias and unfair discrimination going on against the blues, at least to some extent, in the state, including in the law enforcement and government, even if not as much as in the past.

So, it is agreed by everyone, including the green politicians and law enforcers, that more blues would likely be a good thing, for a number of reasons, and it is agreed that this should be an aim, even if only for a temporary period.

A job vacancy (it could be either in the government or the police) is advertised, to all persons, with minimum qualifying criteria specified ('must have the full compliment of eight legs, seven arms and three heads', for example, or, 'must be able to fly unaided, and also breathe underwater where necessary' and so on). Which of the following actions, if any, would you consider to be racist (see multiple choice poll above)? I am not going to try to pre-define the word racism. You can be subjective about that.

A. More effort is put into encouraging blues to apply.

B. Programs are established to help blues in particular become better qualified to apply.

C. In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a blue is permitted to be selected (it's an option given to the state's public service employer).

D. In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a blue is to be selected.

E. Race is permitted to be considered as one valid qualifying criteria among several others during applications. In other words, it is one of a number of 'weighted' criteria.

F. There is a quota rule of some sort for increasing the number of blues, which means that some will get a job ahead of a better-qualified green, though all must meet the minimum criteria.



I probably haven't covered everything or gone into enough detail. But hey, it's a straw poll. Interpret the options as you will and answer as best you can, subjectively, according to your own preferences (and definitions).
 
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Everything up to D, for me. Unless we're talking political appointments, in which case all of the above might be necessary in some cases. Or up to E if there's a valid reason to need a member of the group in a specific role.
 
The scenario frames electoralism (and representation in "the government or police") as the primary means of redress for systemic discrimination and oppression of one population by another. What should be on the table instead of affirmative action is reparations.
 
Everything up to D, for me. Unless we're talking political appointments, in which case all of the above might be necessary in some cases. Or up to E if there's a valid reason to need a member of the group in a specific role.

Is that an answer to 'which of these are, in your opinion, racist?' :)
 
Well, your scenario is about as hypothetical as a guy going into a doctor's office and saying "Hypothetically, if someone had a burning sensation and a rash on his genitals, what would you prescribe to this generic person who's definitely not me?". It's kind of too on-point for the hypothetical-ness to move it away from the actual situation.

If there is actual bias and harassment going on due to the racial make up of the force, then F would be the most optimal solution. The loss of deserved positions amongst the green candidates is a far lesser evil than rectifying the abuses of power brought about by the green members seeing the blues as a lesser group in society whom they can use their authority to discriminate against.
 
Everything up to D, for me. Unless we're talking political appointments, in which case all of the above might be necessary in some cases. Or up to E if there's a valid reason to need a member of the group in a specific role.

Is that an answer to 'which of these are, in your opinion, racist?' :)

I misread your question, sir. None of the above are racist, but some might be situationally bad ideas.
 
The scenario frames electoralism (and representation in "the government or police") as the primary means of redress for systemic discrimination and oppression of one population by another. What should be on the table instead of affirmative action is reparations.

In other words, punish those who did noting wrong.

I can't think of a better recruiting tool for the KKK.

Note that in the real world some places have gone with a de-facto F (lowering the minimum criteria to make it work) and the result has been more bad cops.
 
Note that in the real world some places have gone with a de-facto F (lowering the minimum criteria to make it work) and the result has been more bad cops.

Out of actual curiosity, where?

I ask partly because the only example I know of is here, where there were not many, if any, problems of that sort, as far as I am aware. In fact, policing is now generally working better.
 
I think people in their private capacity should be able to engage in as mush affirmative action as they like. I don't think government's should engage in race discrimination at all. Obviously, this rule ought to primarily benefit the minority.

That said, I don't have a large problem with minority outreach efforts in recruiting candidates. But the jobs should go to the most objectively qualified candidates regardless of skin color.
 
When I was a wee honeychild, "racist" used to mean "negative prejudice and discrimination against a race because of belief in inferiority of that race". It doesn't mean that any more. I'm not going to vote on whether any of the below situations are "racist", but I will explain whether I think they are a good idea or not.

A. More effort is put into encouraging blues to apply.

More effort compared to what? If it means "advertising widely" and "dismantling cushy inside networks" that should happen anyway and not specifically to encourage blues.

B. Programs are established to help blues in particular become better qualified to apply.

At the public's expense? No. The State should not discriminate by race.

C. In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a blue is permitted to be selected (it's an option given to the state's public service employer).

Do you mean, if the recruiters are so inclined, they can choose the blue candidate without any further justification? No, the State should not discriminate by race.

D. In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a blue is to be selected.

No, the State should not discriminate by race.

E. Race is permitted to be considered as one valid qualifying criteria among several others during applications. In other words, it is one of a number of 'weighted' criteria.

No, the State should not discriminate by race.

F. There is a quota rule of some sort for increasing the number of blues, which means that some will get a job ahead of a better-qualified green, though all must meet the minimum criteria.

No, the State should not discriminate by race. In addition, everybody is made poorer if a better-qualified person is passed over for a lesser-qualified person. The person who graduated last in her class in medical school is still called 'doctor', but somehow I'd prefer the person who graduated top of the class to perform my surgery.
 
ruby sparks said:
C. In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a blue is permitted to be selected (it's an option given to the state's public service employer).
But if that is an option, then might one equivalently write C as:


C': In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a green is permitted to be selected (it's an option given to the state's public service employer).​

If that is the right interpretation, surely that is not racist. Otherwise, I'm not sure what this option means.
 
ruby sparks said:
C. In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a blue is permitted to be selected (it's an option given to the state's public service employer).
But if that is an option, then might one equivalently write C as:


C': In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a green is permitted to be selected (it's an option given to the state's public service employer).​

If that is the right interpretation, surely that is not racist. Otherwise, I'm not sure what this option means.

I think that option C differs from D in that, it allows each particular public service employer to decide whether to use race as the deciding factor, or whether every public sector employer must always use race as the deciding factor. When race is used, it would never be used in favor of the greens (as in your scenario), rather it would always favor the blues and otherwise the decision would be just made at random.
 
A and B are basically just increasing the odds that blues get equal/representative consideration in the decision, without impacting either the decision process/criteria or the outcome given the candidates that actually apply. Thus, are not racial discrimination in the hiring decision.

C and D could not exist or would almost never come into play, b/c two applicants are virtually never equal on every job-relevant dimension. The odds of that and that they are the top 2 candidates is around 1 in billions. So, C and D are fictional scenarios that would be (as they currently are) used to provide cover for the real scenarios of E and F, which are actually identical in all meaningful ways and both entail hiring less qualified blues over more qualified greens. F makes this explicit, but it is equally true of E, because weight is a zero sum game and any weight given to being blue inherently and mathematically guarantees less weight given to qualifications and that some less qualified blues will be hired over more qualified greens.
In situations where the unequal qualifications favored the blue candidate, there would be no need to consider race to increase blue representation. E and F differ only in whether the degree of influence of race is implemented in the form of giving race a weight in every hiring decision to increase the ratio of blues (E), versus using it less consistently (heavily in some hires not in others) so long as the resulting ratio is desirable (F).

So, both E and F are, by definition, racial discrimination, and C and D are just a cover for engaging in E and F. Whether they are "racism" depends on whether engaging in deliberate racial discrimination is "racism" regardless of underlying ideology (policies don't have ideology, only the creators of policy do).

The question of whether C thru F could be used for net positive effect is more complicated.
Since all racial discrimination in hiring, regardless of motive, inherently leads to less qualified hires, the quality of work done by the government and police would decline, causing harm to both blues and greens impacted by these officials. Plus, it would legitimize and therefore increase racial discrimination generally by eroding the principle that such discrimination is wrong, which would particularly harm the blues since they are a statistically minority. OTOH, even though the additional blues hired under such policy would be less qualified, they might have more motive to counter the presumed racism being engaged in by the greens in those positions. Plus, they would serve as examples to other blues to strive to become capable to enter those positions w/o the need to be helped by the affirmative action policy. Of course, if the less competence of the blues in those positions, due to the policy, produces obvious lower performance (e.g., as it does with lower gpa and higher dropout rates of minorities in college), then that "example" could be a bad one that actually reduces motives of other blues to pursue that path. The contextual details would determine how each of these factors played out and what the net effect was.

Then, even if they could be used for net positive effect, there is the question of whether they should be. Unethical acts can have positive effects in some contexts, yet we still view them as unethical acts to avoid. Doing harm to particular individuals can of course have benefits to most people and society as a whole, even reducing net harm done to people. E and F (and thus C and D), definitively cause harm to particular individuals and institutionalized unfair treatment. Are those acceptable in the pursuit of even certain societal benefits, let alone merely probabilistic ones based on a host of assumptions?
 
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The question of whether could be used for net positive effect is more complicated.
Since all racial discrimination, regardless of motive, inherently leads to less qualified hires, the quality of work done by the government and police would decline, causing harm to both blues and greens impacted by these officials. Plus, it would legitimize and therefore increase racial discrimination generally by eroding the principle that such discrimination is wrong, which would particularly harm the blues since they are a statistically minority. OTOH, even though the additional blues hired under such policy would be less qualified, they might have more motive to counter the presumed racism being engaged in by the greens in those positions. Plus, they would serve as examples to other blues to strive to become capable to enter those positions w/o the need to be helped by the affirmative action policy.

Thoughtful overall analysis (your post I mean) with which I would not take much issue. Regarding the above specifically (for which I have omitted the last part about college applications because it's not really the OP scenario) I might also add that in a 'divided society' where one group are or feel they are second-class citizens, the quality of the service can improve because the service (eg police) is seen to be more of an equitable representation of the population it serves, which effectively can make the job easier to do, and the functions of such services are to some extent a two-way street between the provider and receivers. This is distinct from whether the performance of individuals (or indeed the police force by extension) declines because of a lower entry bar.

I am also at least a bit sceptical of whether lowering the bar does in fact necessarily mean lower performance of the sort you mention in any case. As I often cite, we had very strong AA quotas here for getting in our case 'greens' (aka Catholics) into the police, which I think was 98% Protestant at its height. I think I am right in saying that the AA had a target of 50% for each, though it did not get to that before it ran its 10-year course (I think it got to 30-something% for catholics) And as far as I am aware, there was no loss of quality in performance that was reported as being measured. I am not sure what all the relevant factors and reasons were (for example, such a thing could be achieved by or be the result of raising the minimum entry requirements for everyone, simultaneously with implementing the AA by quota) I am only saying I am slightly sceptical of assuming that quotas will necessarily result in it. It would be interesting to have more examples than the local one I overuse.

I am also not aware of any loss of performance or quality, in the governments or political parties of those countries that at one time had temporary quotas for female political representatives, because of the quotas. I agree that such things can be taken too far. Perhaps in some cases they have been.

It would be surprising if over all examples there were no failures. How much they could be attributed to the AA is another matter. Another factor could be automatic resistance to the implementation of the AA. Sometimes this can be called a backlash. A backlash can, of course be justified, and/or happen 'for the best of reasons' but I suspect in this sphere of activity it often doesn't.
 
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ruby sparks said:
C. In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a blue is permitted to be selected (it's an option given to the state's public service employer).
But if that is an option, then might one equivalently write C as:


C': In a situation where a blue and a green application candidate are equally qualified, a green is permitted to be selected (it's an option given to the state's public service employer).​

If that is the right interpretation, surely that is not racist. Otherwise, I'm not sure what this option means.

What ronburgundy said, more or less.

Though I agree you have a valid point of order. I am not sure how my option could be rewritten so as to make it more watertight. That probably goes for all of them. I did rather think them up off the cuff.
 
Well, your scenario is about as hypothetical as a guy going into a doctor's office and saying "Hypothetically, if someone had a burning sensation and a rash on his genitals, what would you prescribe to this generic person who's definitely not me?". It's kind of too on-point for the hypothetical-ness to move it away from the actual situation.

I guess it was intentionally meant to be inherently realistic. The only significant tweak was trying to use non-loaded categories, in order to try to reduce unhelpful associations, such as might increase implicit bias.

I am assuming that there are not significant implicit biases that might affect perceptions of green versus blue, but there are probably some. :)

Wiki says a greenist is a supporter of a 'green party' in political terms, but I'm not sure that is going to play a big part. I hope not.
 
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