I have now met a real life creationist.

[DrZoidberg]

We get all of our instructions in writing. Encouragement to do what is wrong or bad would be found there. The public is invited to examine our literature to attend our meetings, and to visit our website JW.ORG. We have no secret meetings, practices nor rituals, nor do we need any.
"ONE rotten apple spoils the whole barrel."

I challenge you to find a single violent, criminal, homosexual, lesbian, foul-mouthed, immoral, able-bodied person on welfare, etc, among JWs! That's the kind of people who are usually kicked out.

Since when is it immoral to be a homosexual? Are you living in the 19'th century still? It's hard enough to be homosexual as it is. The last thing they need is to get shunned by their parents. That is an immoral act. Being gay isn't.

Since you have found nothing in our literature that encourages immoral, violent, dishonest or abusive behavior, I repeat my challenge.

It's like you have no idea how psychological manipulation works. Newsflash, it doesn't have to state it upfront in order to promote the behaviour. If you demand from a group of people to behave in a certain way which is unrealistic for anybody to live up to, you are encouraging dishonesty. It leads to crushing their self esteem and sense of self worth. Which is why ex-JW's often have such problems with it. Inflating the ego while crushing self esteem is a classic manipulation technique in any setting. In JW it's systematic. It's designed to make members psychologically dependent on the community. JW's aren't encouraged to be independent. Guess if disfellowing is much more traumatic for JW's than for other (more psychologically balanced) people? Once members learn that they do wisest in keeping quiet about sins or unacceptable thoughts, even to themselves, they'll be mentally trapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I suggest you read up on the psychological manipulation techniques cults use. They're all the same. The only thing that sets them apart is in what way they're supposed to be the chosen special people. But the psychological dynamic within the groups is all identical. For JW it's especially easy since it's the cult that's been the subject of most studies.

And finally, people can be happy in JW. That's not what I'm talking about. Battered wives often talk about all the happy memories with their abusers. Humans employ all manner of self deceptions in order to protect itself mentally from abuse. Stuff that often takes years to recover from, once they're out.

Due to my ex-JW friends, this is something I actually know a bit about.

But I can separate theological discussions from group dynamic discussions. I knew about the cult dynamic within JW before I joined the on-line study group.

 

[wilson]

Since when is it immoral to be a homosexual? Are you living in the 19'th century still? It's hard enough to be homosexual as it is. The last thing they need is to get shunned by their parents. That is an immoral act. Being gay isn't.

Since you have found nothing in our literature that encourages immoral, violent, dishonest or abusive behavior, I repeat my challenge.

It's like you have no idea how psychological manipulation works. Newsflash, it doesn't have to state it upfront in order to promote the behaviour. If you demand from a group of people to behave in a certain way which is unrealistic for anybody to live up to, you are encouraging dishonesty. It leads to crushing their self esteem and sense of self worth. Which is why ex-JW's often have such problems with it. Inflating the ego while crushing self esteem is a classic manipulation technique in any setting. In JW it's systematic. It's designed to make members psychologically dependent on the community. JW's aren't encouraged to be independent. Guess if disfellowing is much more traumatic for JW's than for other (more psychologically balanced) people? Once members learn that they do wisest in keeping quiet about sins or unacceptable thoughts, even to themselves, they'll be mentally trapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I suggest you read up on the psychological manipulation techniques cults use. They're all the same. The only thing that sets them apart is in what way they're supposed to be the chosen special people. But the psychological dynamic within the groups is all identical. For JW it's especially easy since it's the cult that's been the subject of most studies.

And finally, people can be happy in JW. That's not what I'm talking about. Battered wives often talk about all the happy memories with their abusers. Humans employ all manner of self deceptions in order to protect itself mentally from abuse. Stuff that often takes years to recover from, once they're out.

Due to my ex-JW friends, this is something I actually know a bit about.

But I can separate theological discussions from group dynamic discussions. I knew about the cult dynamic within JW before I joined the on-line study group.

Have you asked yourself why you are making these charges? Just plain hatred? What?
You are quite fortunate that JWs do not sue people for false accusations.
If you were sued, and you were asked to prove it, what defense could you offer in proof of your allegations?
Can you, really defend yourself in a court of law on this matter?
That is something we would all like to see. And...........
I repeat my challenge.

 

[funinspace]

Since you have found nothing in our literature that encourages immoral, violent, dishonest or abusive behavior, I repeat my challenge.

It's like you have no idea how psychological manipulation works. Newsflash, it doesn't have to state it upfront in order to promote the behaviour. If you demand from a group of people to behave in a certain way which is unrealistic for anybody to live up to, you are encouraging dishonesty. It leads to crushing their self esteem and sense of self worth. Which is why ex-JW's often have such problems with it. Inflating the ego while crushing self esteem is a classic manipulation technique in any setting. In JW it's systematic. It's designed to make members psychologically dependent on the community. JW's aren't encouraged to be independent. Guess if disfellowing is much more traumatic for JW's than for other (more psychologically balanced) people? Once members learn that they do wisest in keeping quiet about sins or unacceptable thoughts, even to themselves, they'll be mentally trapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I suggest you read up on the psychological manipulation techniques cults use. They're all the same. The only thing that sets them apart is in what way they're supposed to be the chosen special people. But the psychological dynamic within the groups is all identical. For JW it's especially easy since it's the cult that's been the subject of most studies.

And finally, people can be happy in JW. That's not what I'm talking about. Battered wives often talk about all the happy memories with their abusers. Humans employ all manner of self deceptions in order to protect itself mentally from abuse. Stuff that often takes years to recover from, once they're out.

Due to my ex-JW friends, this is something I actually know a bit about.

But I can separate theological discussions from group dynamic discussions. I knew about the cult dynamic within JW before I joined the on-line study group.

Have you asked yourself why you are making these charges? Just plain hatred? What?

Say what again. Did you happen to notice that you came to an atheist/agnostic chat board, parading your non-creationist creationist non-theology theology?

You are quite fortunate that JWs do not sue people for false accusations.
If you were sued, and you were asked to prove it, what defense could you offer in proof of your allegations?

You sure like your legalisms for someone who struts about as if you aren't into it...

Can you, really defend yourself in a court of law on this matter?
That is something we would all like to see. And...........

You have a mouse in your pocket or what? Can you defend yourself in front of the FSM?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Since you have found nothing in our literature that encourages immoral, violent, dishonest or abusive behavior, I repeat my challenge.

It's like you have no idea how psychological manipulation works. Newsflash, it doesn't have to state it upfront in order to promote the behaviour. If you demand from a group of people to behave in a certain way which is unrealistic for anybody to live up to, you are encouraging dishonesty. It leads to crushing their self esteem and sense of self worth. Which is why ex-JW's often have such problems with it. Inflating the ego while crushing self esteem is a classic manipulation technique in any setting. In JW it's systematic. It's designed to make members psychologically dependent on the community. JW's aren't encouraged to be independent. Guess if disfellowing is much more traumatic for JW's than for other (more psychologically balanced) people? Once members learn that they do wisest in keeping quiet about sins or unacceptable thoughts, even to themselves, they'll be mentally trapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I suggest you read up on the psychological manipulation techniques cults use. They're all the same. The only thing that sets them apart is in what way they're supposed to be the chosen special people. But the psychological dynamic within the groups is all identical. For JW it's especially easy since it's the cult that's been the subject of most studies.

And finally, people can be happy in JW. That's not what I'm talking about. Battered wives often talk about all the happy memories with their abusers. Humans employ all manner of self deceptions in order to protect itself mentally from abuse. Stuff that often takes years to recover from, once they're out.

Due to my ex-JW friends, this is something I actually know a bit about.

But I can separate theological discussions from group dynamic discussions. I knew about the cult dynamic within JW before I joined the on-line study group.

Have you asked yourself why you are making these charges? Just plain hatred? What?
You are quite fortunate that JWs do not sue people for false accusations.
If you were sued, and you were asked to prove it, what defense could you offer in proof of your allegations?
Can you, really defend yourself in a court of law on this matter?
That is something we would all like to see. And...........
I repeat my challenge.

It's love. Believe it or not.

What I am saying isn't remotely controversial. Just Google it. The Internet is awash with bitter JW's angry about lost years in the movement.

If you ever leave JW you might wonder why it took you so long to accept the obvious. But don't beat yourself up. Cults have a way of making us oppress ourselves.

I've seen what damage JW can do. Read up on how cults work and then look at JW videos. It's like a manual of brainwashing. Step by step.

Do you really need examples and sources from me? I think you know it's not false accusations

 

[wilson]

It's like you have no idea how psychological manipulation works. Newsflash, it doesn't have to state it upfront in order to promote the behaviour. If you demand from a group of people to behave in a certain way which is unrealistic for anybody to live up to, you are encouraging dishonesty. It leads to crushing their self esteem and sense of self worth. Which is why ex-JW's often have such problems with it. Inflating the ego while crushing self esteem is a classic manipulation technique in any setting. In JW it's systematic. It's designed to make members psychologically dependent on the community. JW's aren't encouraged to be independent. Guess if disfellowing is much more traumatic for JW's than for other (more psychologically balanced) people? Once members learn that they do wisest in keeping quiet about sins or unacceptable thoughts, even to themselves, they'll be mentally trapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I suggest you read up on the psychological manipulation techniques cults use. They're all the same. The only thing that sets them apart is in what way they're supposed to be the chosen special people. But the psychological dynamic within the groups is all identical. For JW it's especially easy since it's the cult that's been the subject of most studies.

And finally, people can be happy in JW. That's not what I'm talking about. Battered wives often talk about all the happy memories with their abusers. Humans employ all manner of self deceptions in order to protect itself mentally from abuse. Stuff that often takes years to recover from, once they're out.

Due to my ex-JW friends, this is something I actually know a bit about.

But I can separate theological discussions from group dynamic discussions. I knew about the cult dynamic within JW before I joined the on-line study group.

Have you asked yourself why you are making these charges? Just plain hatred? What?
You are quite fortunate that JWs do not sue people for false accusations.
If you were sued, and you were asked to prove it, what defense could you offer in proof of your allegations?
Can you, really defend yourself in a court of law on this matter?
That is something we would all like to see. And...........
I repeat my challenge.

It's love. Believe it or not.

What I am saying isn't remotely controversial. Just Google it. The Internet is awash with bitter JW's angry about lost years in the movement.

If you ever leave JW you might wonder why it took you so long to accept the obvious. But don't beat yourself up. Cults have a way of making us oppress ourselves.

I've seen what damage JW can do. Read up on how cults work and then look at JW videos. It's like a manual of brainwashing. Step by step.

Do you really need examples and sources from me? I think you know it's not false accusations

Just as I thought. You are unable to prove any of your charges. If you had any proof you would have been only too glad to display it here.
The love is in the fact that we do not sue ridiculers with their lies.
Why?
“. . .Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Romans 12:17-21)

It is the bible that is saving your hide.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Just as I thought. You are unable to prove any of your charges. If you had any proof you would have been only too glad to display it here.

I really DO love how much time the Faithful spend on telling the rest of us what we should and shouldn't post, and interpreting those posts we make.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's like you have no idea how psychological manipulation works. Newsflash, it doesn't have to state it upfront in order to promote the behaviour. If you demand from a group of people to behave in a certain way which is unrealistic for anybody to live up to, you are encouraging dishonesty. It leads to crushing their self esteem and sense of self worth. Which is why ex-JW's often have such problems with it. Inflating the ego while crushing self esteem is a classic manipulation technique in any setting. In JW it's systematic. It's designed to make members psychologically dependent on the community. JW's aren't encouraged to be independent. Guess if disfellowing is much more traumatic for JW's than for other (more psychologically balanced) people? Once members learn that they do wisest in keeping quiet about sins or unacceptable thoughts, even to themselves, they'll be mentally trapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I suggest you read up on the psychological manipulation techniques cults use. They're all the same. The only thing that sets them apart is in what way they're supposed to be the chosen special people. But the psychological dynamic within the groups is all identical. For JW it's especially easy since it's the cult that's been the subject of most studies.

And finally, people can be happy in JW. That's not what I'm talking about. Battered wives often talk about all the happy memories with their abusers. Humans employ all manner of self deceptions in order to protect itself mentally from abuse. Stuff that often takes years to recover from, once they're out.

Due to my ex-JW friends, this is something I actually know a bit about.

But I can separate theological discussions from group dynamic discussions. I knew about the cult dynamic within JW before I joined the on-line study group.

Have you asked yourself why you are making these charges? Just plain hatred? What?
You are quite fortunate that JWs do not sue people for false accusations.
If you were sued, and you were asked to prove it, what defense could you offer in proof of your allegations?
Can you, really defend yourself in a court of law on this matter?
That is something we would all like to see. And...........
I repeat my challenge.

It's love. Believe it or not.

What I am saying isn't remotely controversial. Just Google it. The Internet is awash with bitter JW's angry about lost years in the movement.

If you ever leave JW you might wonder why it took you so long to accept the obvious. But don't beat yourself up. Cults have a way of making us oppress ourselves.

I've seen what damage JW can do. Read up on how cults work and then look at JW videos. It's like a manual of brainwashing. Step by step.

Do you really need examples and sources from me? I think you know it's not false accusations

Just as I thought. You are unable to prove any of your charges. If you had any proof you would have been only too glad to display it here.
The love is in the fact that we do not sue ridiculers with their lies.
Why?
“. . .Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Romans 12:17-21)

It is the bible that is saving your hide.

Ok then, I'll google for you. Here's the first thing that pops up. Here's a lady describing her life in Jehovas Witnesses. What she's describing is a deeply dysfunctional group of people. But she's describing it with the distance of having left the movement. I suspect you can recognize all of this.

https://pjmedia.com/faith/2016/05/31/my-childhood-in-the-cult-of-jehovahs-witnesses/

But that was the first thing that popped up, as well as anecdotal evidence. How about research into cults.

http://hjalpkallan.se/
Here's the website of the organisation my ex-JW friend is part of who is a therapist and works with ex-JWs. It's in Swedish. But can be read with Google translate. She doesn't only work with JWs. She works with people who have emerged from any cult. The psychological damage cults inflict is remarkably similar. Like I mentioned before, all the psychological tools employed by JW and other cults are identical. What makes an organisation a cult is how it is organised. Not the values or beliefs it holds.

This is the world's biggest organisation to research cults and help people who wish to break free.
http://www.icsahome.com/

Just search for Jehovas Witnesses on their site. There's constantly coming new research on Jehovas Witnesses specifically. It's too much to list here. Today there's been studies on every aspect, no matter how minute.

And there's like a book a week being published about various aspects of breaking free from JW. All of which can be found on Amazon.

Not to mention all the anti-JW sites. All staffed by ex-JW's who want to help others out of JW's grip. Do you want me to google them for you as well?

This popped up in my search. JW's own explanation of why they're not a cult. It's remarkable how they're pretending that a cult is something completely different than what everybody else means.

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/are-jehovahs-witnesses-a-cult/

There's a number of definitions of cults. But only subtly different. Here's from sociologist Roy Wallis picked from Road to Total Freedom. It's on Scientology. But it's the book I have available, and all cults work the same way. So it applies to JW equally well.

1. Voluntary organization where membership is earned.
2. Membership is exclusive and may be waived by members who do not comply with the group standards.
3. The members look like an elite who possesses special knowledge.
4. The sect is usually in conflict with its surroundings.
5. In itself, the sect is usually egalitarian, that is, all believers are a priesthood.
6. The sect is ethical and ascetic, meaning that you have some living rules and offer time and money for your group.
7. Finally, the sect is totalitarian, that is, requires total commitment and attempts to control the individual's life.

The above research took me 20 minutes. This stuff is not hard to find. It's made extremely easy by the fact that JW is one of the most notorious and extreme cults out there. So it's been extensively researched. And continues to be.

Is that enough, or do you require more googling assistance?

edit: I should probably add, none of this is about Charles Taze Russel, JW's beliefs or theological support. This is ONLY about how JW is organised.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Also worth noting is that NOT creating a cult, is very easy. Setting up a cult is hard and requires deliberate effort. It's nothing people do by mistake. Cults are always deliberately set up by unscrupulous people with deep insights into human psychology.

Organisations don't evolve into cults.

So we can't give either Russel or Rutherford a free pass due to ignorance because the research into this hadn't been done back then. They must have known what they were doing.

 

[wilson]

Jesus Christ also taught us to pray for God's rulership to take over the earth:
“. . .Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.  Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.” (Matthew 6:9, 10)
And.......
There would be no conflicts if bullheaded men heeded the wise admonition from Jesus Christ:
“. . .“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them.. . .” (Matthew 7:12)
Millions of us are living by this principle and have learned how to avoid the conflicts that now plague materialists. We are not involved in the miseries and disappointments of politics, the horrors of warfare nor the disease of materialism. Yes, we have learned to love each other.

Now - tell me how that could fail.

People like freedom, no matter what. I'm for democracy. Any dictator, no matter how good he is is still a dictator. I'd be the first to revolt.

If these few principles are applied, you haven't yet told me how that could fail.

Humans are wired in the head to be dissatisfied with stability. It doesn't matter how bountiful and stable society we live in, humans thrive on change. Again, this is down to our "biological design". If God made us this way it means God made us to revolt to God's rule. That's a damn stupid design for a king to make.

That's your theory.
Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

 

[funinspace]

It's love. Believe it or not.

What I am saying isn't remotely controversial. Just Google it. The Internet is awash with bitter JW's angry about lost years in the movement.

If you ever leave JW you might wonder why it took you so long to accept the obvious. But don't beat yourself up. Cults have a way of making us oppress ourselves.

I've seen what damage JW can do. Read up on how cults work and then look at JW videos. It's like a manual of brainwashing. Step by step.

Do you really need examples and sources from me? I think you know it's not false accusations

Just as I thought. You are unable to prove any of your charges. If you had any proof you would have been only too glad to display it here.
The love is in the fact that we do not sue ridiculers with their lies.

LOL...yeah I could just see that happening. With the JW regularly refusing court orders to turn over documents as part of discovery, what are the chances they will sue, and then refuse the defenses request for documents as part of discovery. The JW church has had to pay such fines in several lawsuits already. That should be a riot, as any judge would get royally pissed at the church for suing, and then balking at providing documents.

Why?
“. . .Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Romans 12:17-21)

It is the bible that is saving your hide.

Not at all, it is the JW trying to keep its secrets, that is first and for most saving anyone's hide. BTW, your hubris is showing...

I find verse 17 quite interesting, as how many people do you think find it 'fine' when YOU project your views into what is in our minds, as if you know them, and insult them. You might want to get a mirror and start looking for that log...

 

[funinspace]

Humans are wired in the head to be dissatisfied with stability. It doesn't matter how bountiful and stable society we live in, humans thrive on change. Again, this is down to our "biological design". If God made us this way it means God made us to revolt to God's rule. That's a damn stupid design for a king to make.

That's your theory.
Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

Pretty funny...oh my...just how could it fail...hum. How about 2,000 years of it clearly failing, just from the general Christian perspective? Your tiny Christian sect may appear functional to you, but its growth rate seems to have slowed quite a bit in the last 10-20 years. And it obviously doesn't work even for your sect, if people also leave (or get booted out) in droves.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...look-at-jehovahs-witnesses-living-in-the-u-s/

Jehovah’s Witnesses have a low retention rate relative to other U.S. religious groups. Among all U.S. adults who were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses, two-thirds (66%) no longer identify with the group. By contrast, about two-thirds of those who were raised as evangelical Protestants (65%) and Mormons (64%) still say they are members of those respective groups.

On the flip side, about two-thirds (65%) of current adult Jehovah’s Witnesses are converts – like Prince, they were raised in another faith.

Don't get me wrong, its a nice idea as many philosophers across the word and time have come up with it independently. Its nice to strive for it, but human societies/civilizations have struggled to become better and it seems to be a long road. At least there seems to be general improvement as measured by centuries.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

People like freedom, no matter what. I'm for democracy. Any dictator, no matter how good he is is still a dictator. I'd be the first to revolt.

If these few principles are applied, you haven't yet told me how that could fail.

Humans are wired in the head to be dissatisfied with stability. It doesn't matter how bountiful and stable society we live in, humans thrive on change. Again, this is down to our "biological design". If God made us this way it means God made us to revolt to God's rule. That's a damn stupid design for a king to make.

That's your theory.
Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

The golden rule and such are part and parcel of many religions and ethical systems that long predate Christianity. Buddhism, Taosim, Confusionism Stoacism, and from people like Democritas and Socrates.

Somehow, the Christians seem to forget all of that and tell us Christianity is somehow something special when it is but one of many lines of thought about ethics.

 

[wilson]

If these few principles are applied, you haven't yet told me how that could fail.

Humans are wired in the head to be dissatisfied with stability. It doesn't matter how bountiful and stable society we live in, humans thrive on change. Again, this is down to our "biological design". If God made us this way it means God made us to revolt to God's rule. That's a damn stupid design for a king to make.

That's your theory. Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

The golden rule and such are part and parcel of many religions and ethical systems that long predate Christianity. Buddhism, Taosim, Confusionism Stoacism, and from people like Democritas and Socrates.

That is not at all true. The history of these religions prove it. They have ALL engaged in bloody warfare.
The Golden Rule has never been practiced by them, despite their claims.

Somehow, the Christians seem to forget all of that and tell us Christianity is somehow something special when it is but one of many lines of thought about ethics.

You're just not getting it Charlie. Your words make it obvious that these principles have NOT been applied.
Idolatry, sexual immorality, violence, social unrest, political trickery, false religion, homosexuality, adultery, magic, crime, abortions, hatred, strife, envy,
tax evasion, deviousness, hypocrisy, etc, etc, are all carefully excluded from biblical Christianity. Show me one word in the Christian Scriptures that approve of any of these things.
The Christian Scriptures DEMAND moral, spiritual and physical purity (not perfection) of all those who WANT to live by them.
You can give me a litany of evil deeds committed by people making all kinds of claims.
But Jesus said:
“. . .By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.” (Matthew 7:16-20)

Have these people loved their neighbor and avoided conflict?

Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

 

[bilby]

Humans are wired in the head to be dissatisfied with stability. It doesn't matter how bountiful and stable society we live in, humans thrive on change. Again, this is down to our "biological design". If God made us this way it means God made us to revolt to God's rule. That's a damn stupid design for a king to make.

That's your theory. Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

The golden rule and such are part and parcel of many religions and ethical systems that long predate Christianity. Buddhism, Taosim, Confusionism Stoacism, and from people like Democritas and Socrates.

That is not at all true. The history of these religions prove it. They have ALL engaged in bloody warfare.
The Golden Rule has never been practiced by them, despite their claims.

Somehow, the Christians seem to forget all of that and tell us Christianity is somehow something special when it is but one of many lines of thought about ethics.

You're just not getting it Charlie. Your words make it obvious that these principles have NOT been applied.
Idolatry, sexual immorality, violence, social unrest, political trickery, false religion, homosexuality, adultery, magic, crime, abortions, hatred, strife, envy,
tax evasion, deviousness, hypocrisy, etc, etc, are all carefully excluded from biblical Christianity. Show me one word in the Christian Scriptures that approve of any of these things.
The Christian Scriptures DEMAND moral, spiritual and physical purity (not perfection) of all those who WANT to live by them.
You can give me a litany of evil deeds committed by people making all kinds of claims.
But Jesus said:
“. . .By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.” (Matthew 7:16-20)

Have these people loved their neighbor and avoided conflict?

Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

It can fail (indeed, it can't NOT fail) because people are incapable of doing it.

You can't avoid conflict.

And I don't mean 'we'; YOU are here, right now, in conflict with other posters in this thread. In principle you could have not posted here, and avoided the conflict - but you didn't, in practice, do so. And the reason that you didn't is that you think (like pretty much everyone ever) that you have something important to tell people about how they are living their lives incorrectly.

You think that your way of doing things is better; AND YOU CAN'T HELP BUT TELL US SO. Which causes conflict.

You (or rather, the religion to which you subscribe) is demanding something that APPEARS reasonable, but is in fact IMPOSSIBLE for humans to achieve. They don't even achieve it themselves (although they have LOTS of excuses and rationalizations ready for anyone who has the cheek to point that out).

Demanding things that sound easy, but are in fact impossible, is a great way to put people under your control. 'See? You can't even do this simple thing. Best you let us tell you how to live, as you are clearly incapable of getting it right by yourself'. But that misses the vital point - nobody gets it right by themselves. Or even with the assistance of others - including any of the thousands of imaginary friends humans have invented to do the job. Humans fuck things up. It's OK. We all do it. You might as well be ashamed of shitting as be ashamed of sinning. It's just inevitable as a part of life (oh, and many religions teach people to be ashamed of shitting too. Shame over the unavoidable is part of the control system. Shitting, pissing, being naked, feeling sexual attraction, farting, pride, falling into conflict, disliking a neighbour, etc., etc.; All of these are used to control people by organizations, cults, churches, and individuals; and all of them are completely unavoidable).

You fail to live up to an impossible standard; But that doesn't make you worthless, nor does it make anyone else (or any book written by anyone else; or any invisible entity claimed by anyone else) a suitable authority over you. No matter how much of a fuck up you might make of your life, you cannot reasonably expect someone else to do a better job of it - nobody else can live your life for you.

 

[Keith&Co.]

You think that your way of doing things is better; AND YOU CAN'T HELP BUT TELL US SO. Which causes conflict.

Not to mention the deviousness and hypocrisy items on his list. wilson demands everyone else provide proof of everything, but he won't even define his terms, much less support his claims, except by demanding others prove any counter-claim to his satisfaction.

I also find it hilarious that he seems to think homosexuality comes from being imperfectly pure.

 

[none]

Maybe he knows how to believe in God

 

[DrZoidberg]

People like freedom, no matter what. I'm for democracy. Any dictator, no matter how good he is is still a dictator. I'd be the first to revolt.

If these few principles are applied, you haven't yet told me how that could fail.

Failure assumes there's a known shared goal we're all trying to reach. What is the goal, Wilson?

Humans are wired in the head to be dissatisfied with stability. It doesn't matter how bountiful and stable society we live in, humans thrive on change. Again, this is down to our "biological design". If God made us this way it means God made us to revolt to God's rule. That's a damn stupid design for a king to make.

That's your theory.
Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

In Nazi Germany Jehovas Witnesses didn't get involved politically to stop Hitler. In the western world they didn't join up to fight Hitler. If other people hadn't sacrificed their lives to fight Hitler he would have won, and all members of Jehovas Witnesses would have been exterminated in concentration camps. I think loving your neighbour is a great attitude to start from. I also think that it's important that we have the ability to forgive. We need to give people second chances. But some people just need to be stopped. I life of hate is bad. But so is a life of nothing but love. There's a middle ground here.

It's in our biology. Just study any troupe of monkeys. Sure, we're smarter than them. But we still have all the same instincts. All humans have the rage and urge to dominate bubbling under the surface. Civilisation to me, is the project by which we've designed a society around curbing our more destructive instincts. For that project to work enough people have to pitch in to help when necessary. If you don't you're part of the problem. JW's are completely dependent on living in a society that is not JW and which does not share their values. I'm just stating facts now. We know what would have happened if Hitler would have won.

 

[DrZoidberg]

]
That is not at all true. The history of these religions prove it. They have ALL engaged in bloody warfare.
The Golden Rule has never been practiced by them, despite their claims.

Here's a little known fact. About of a third of the Golden Horde were Christian. It's the most brutal and savage army the world has ever seen. They make the Nazi's look benevolent. The Mongol army helped spread Christianity all through Asia.

Here's another Christian army, also savage and brutal, the German Nazi army. Hitler was a devout Catholic. His book, Mein Kampf, is full of Biblical references.

If these other religions aren't the solution, Christianity sure as hell doesn't seem to be either. If a system of thought isn't helping, at what point should we declare it a failure? After 2000 years of failure? 4000 years? 10 000?

Idolatry

What's wrong with idolatry?

 

[DrZoidberg]

There's about a billion Christians in the world. ...and somehow most of them are getting it wrong. I work with IT systems. A large part of my job is communication. Especially creating organisations that promote the correct behaviour without having to explain anything. I'm pretty sure I could do a better job than God. I'm not saying I'm omniscient or even a genius. I'm saying that God, if God exists, sucks at this. Everybody in the industry knows that if you release a new product, drop the manual in users hands, and then run away, they're going to use your product wrong.

Knowing what we know now, I think it's a fair assessment to say that Christianity was designed to fail.

 

[wilson]

That's your theory. Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

The golden rule and such are part and parcel of many religions and ethical systems that long predate Christianity. Buddhism, Taosim, Confusionism Stoacism, and from people like Democritas and Socrates.

That is not at all true. The history of these religions prove it. They have ALL engaged in bloody warfare.
The Golden Rule has never been practiced by them, despite their claims.

Somehow, the Christians seem to forget all of that and tell us Christianity is somehow something special when it is but one of many lines of thought about ethics.

You're just not getting it Charlie. Your words make it obvious that these principles have NOT been applied.
Idolatry, sexual immorality, violence, social unrest, political trickery, false religion, homosexuality, adultery, magic, crime, abortions, hatred, strife, envy,
tax evasion, deviousness, hypocrisy, etc, etc, are all carefully excluded from biblical Christianity. Show me one word in the Christian Scriptures that approve of any of these things.
The Christian Scriptures DEMAND moral, spiritual and physical purity (not perfection) of all those who WANT to live by them.
You can give me a litany of evil deeds committed by people making all kinds of claims.
But Jesus said:
“. . .By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.” (Matthew 7:16-20)

Have these people loved their neighbor and avoided conflict?

Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding conflict could possibly fail.

It can fail (indeed, it can't NOT fail) because people are incapable of doing it.

You can't avoid conflict.

That, too, is false.
Show me one time when genuine love of neighbor has failed.

And I don't mean 'we'; YOU are here, right now, in conflict with other posters in this thread. In principle you could have not posted here, and avoided the conflict - but you didn't, in practice, do so. And the reason that you didn't is that you think (like pretty much everyone ever) that you have something important to tell people about how they are living their lives incorrectly.

You think that your way of doing things is better; AND YOU CAN'T HELP BUT TELL US SO. Which causes conflict.

You (or rather, the religion to which you subscribe) is demanding something that APPEARS reasonable, but is in fact IMPOSSIBLE for humans to achieve. They don't even achieve it themselves (although they have LOTS of excuses and rationalizations ready for anyone who has the cheek to point that out).

That is false! They do not demand that anyone inside or outside of their belief circle do anything they do not want to do. We live in peace, free of physical conflict because it is Jehovah's will for us and because we want to. I repeat: In all of the wars of the 20th century, not one drop of blood was spilled by one of JWs. Don't tell me it is not possible because we live it daily.

Demanding things that sound easy, but are in fact impossible, is a great way to put people under your control. 'See? You can't even do this simple thing. Best you let us tell you how to live, as you are clearly incapable of getting it right by yourself'. But that misses the vital point - nobody gets it right by themselves. Or even with the assistance of others - including any of the thousands of imaginary friends humans have invented to do the job. Humans fuck things up. It's OK. We all do it. You might as well be ashamed of shitting as be ashamed of sinning. It's just inevitable as a part of life (oh, and many religions teach people to be ashamed of shitting too. Shame over the unavoidable is part of the control system. Shitting, pissing, being naked, feeling sexual attraction, farting, pride, falling into conflict, disliking a neighbour, etc., etc.; All of these are used to control people by organizations, cults, churches, and individuals; and all of them are completely unavoidable).

You fail to live up to an impossible standard; But that doesn't make you worthless, nor does it make anyone else (or any book written by anyone else; or any invisible entity claimed by anyone else) a suitable authority over you. No matter how much of a fuck up you might make of your life, you cannot reasonably expect someone else to do a better job of it - nobody else can live your life for you.

Remember this?:
"The history of these religions prove it. They have ALL engaged in bloody warfare. The Golden Rule has never been practiced by them, despite their claims."
Sir, you should be able to understand that, by my talking about participation in warfare, I am talking about physical conflict. Unless you are telling me that loving your neighbor and avoiding warfare is wrong, that can, and has been, done by millions of peaceful humans who truly love their fellow man.
I am not asking you to do anything you don't want to do. Like the song says:
"I can't make you love me if you don't. You can't make your heart feel something it won't."
I know this for sure:
“Love never fails. . . .” (1 Corinthians 13:8)
"Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.” (Matthew 7:16-20)

Now - tell me how loving your neighbor and avoiding (physical) conflict could possibly fail.