I think fines and court costs should be ajusted to one's net worth or yearly income.

[NobleSavage]

Although my license is in good order now, my license was suspended twice. At that time I was living paycheck to paycheck, out far from any public transportation, and although I knew my license would be suspended for non-payment of a ticket, I kept driving. I didn't have friends or family I could rely on to get to work, and the girlfriend and I at the time shard a vehicle and had to get back and forth to work. We had kids to support as well as ourselves. When I went to court for the first ticket, I explained the situation and then paid it when tax time came around, but I forgot about a separate payment of $50.00 in court fees. A couple of years later I get pulled over for supposedly running a stop sign. My license was re-suspended for nonpayment of those court fees, plus a warrant (unknown to me) had been issued for my arrest.

So, I was cuffed and taken in to the local jail for the city I was pulled over in, and I used my one phone call to call my girlfriend to let her know what was going on. I get arraigned in video court the next day, and I'm ordered to pay the court costs plus other fees and so on, totaling up almost $400. I don't have it, my girlfriend doesn't have it. No one does, so I sit in the drunk tank there. One day, two days, three. Then they transfer me to the jail where I actually owe the old outstanding court fee. An hour and a half drive. I get rebooked and stay there for a few days. It took some doing to get answers, but apparently you can do time served to pay this kind of debt off, so I only have a few more months of waiting and I'll be a free man once more. Yipee. Fortunately a few people pooled their resources after they got paid and got me out. I owed $50.00. My stay ended up being 8 days. It ended up costing more in officer salaries to book me the first time than the fine was worth. After that the state had to pay 8 days of incarceration, transport to another facility, and further court fees. Of course I lost my job being gone for 8 days, employers don't generally care why you're in jail, they just want to move on. Cost to get my license back in order? Almost $2000.

If you're a tax payer, they are pissing your money away.

That is where an attorney would have come in handy. The Supreme Court ruled in Bearden v. Georgia Judges cannot send people to jail just because they are too poor to pay their court fines -- it basically amounts to debtors prison. This is often ignored by judges (or they just don't know about it). The other scam I have seen is where 3rd party business will pay your debt and you have to make monthly payments to them, but the interest rate is crazy high. You end up paying double or triple the amount. And they have a deal worked out with the cops that if you don't make a payment then they can suspend your license and issue a bench warrant.

I was an acquainted with a girl that got busted with a personal amount of heroin. She was smoking it, not injecting. She was looking at a 6 month jail sentence. However, she contacted an attorney and he said she could get her out of jail if she payed x,xxx plus his fee of x,xxx. She had no money so she turned to her dealer and started selling heroin to raise the money.

Another friend in Denver, pre-marijuana legalization, got busted with a small amount of hash in his car. They gave him a DWI even though he was not under the influence of hash and had nothing to drink. He got a suspended license for 60 days, but the court required him to go to classes. So he had to drive without a license to attend the classes. And on top of that he had to get an ignition interlock (which is really stupid because he wasn't a drinker) that he had to blow into every so often. This cost a big amount for installation and $300 a month + court costs. He started selling marijuana to his friends to cover the costs.

A buddy I went to HS and College with got a DWI while he was in college. Basically, he had to pay a fine and have a suspended license for a period of time. Twenty years later he was leaving a bar and cop was waiting to pull people over leaving the bar. He had about 3 drinks and failed the breathalyzer. Because of this was his second DWI he got a suspended license for a year and had to pay thousands in fines. He works full time as an independent contractor fixing peoples houses. He has 3 kids to feed. So he basically had to drive with a suspended license to take care of his family.

 

[NobleSavage]

Another interesting case, the brother of my brother-in-law (not sure what that makes him to me), had a job as a Fortran programer on big iron. He was making 100K a year. He lost his job due to downsizing and the shift away from big iron computers. Fortran was the only language he new; he tried really hard to get a new job and couldn't. In the mean time he missed his child support payments and in my state if you don't keep up with child support you go to jail. He was sentenced to one year in prison with a felony. When he got out the only job he could find was sorting books for a publisher at minimum wage. He lost his house and had to move in with relatives.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Noble Savage says we need a tax hike to pay for courts because people not making enough money can pay the fines and fees. Lets impeach him!

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You must disclose your financial assets to the IRS already; why would this be a big deal? Indeed, it would make sense to base fines on the income on your most recent tax return - so no new disclosure would be needed at all.

Actually, no. There's no obligation to report your assets unless they are held in foreign bank accounts or substantial interests in foreign corporations. (And these rules exist to ensure the income gets reported.)

You must report income, not assets.



As for the general idea: I hate it.

1) Net worth is a really bad idea--entrepreneurs might have a lot of paper wealth without much liquid wealth. (For a period of years my former boss was worth upwards of $10M on paper--but it was totally illiquid and in the end something like $20M went poof over three years, leaving him destitute.)

2) It provides an incentive to law enforcement to hunt the rich. The financial motivations for tickets are bad enough now, this would make it worse.

I think the real answer is to go the opposite direction: I would like to see the fine abolished as a means of punishment of individuals. Things that carry fines now would carry community service penalties instead. An hour is an hour if you're a beggar or Bill Gates.

It also removes the financial incentive the state has for imposing fines.

no one is goning to hunt rich people and the whole point of the exercise to not cause people to have to pay money they don't have.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think the real answer is to go the opposite direction: I would like to see the fine abolished as a means of punishment of individuals. Things that carry fines now would carry community service penalties instead. An hour is an hour if you're a beggar or Bill Gates.-

I had to do 40 hours of community service once. It was no big deal. I just took a weak off work. How many people who make minimum wage and have kids to feed can take a week off work?

Few people work 7 days/week. Let them do their community service in pieces. There aren't many people who are in a situation where they couldn't do 4 hours/week (and most who couldn't are because they have remote work that's done in blocks--oil platforms and the like. They have enough off time, it's just that it's scheduled strange.)

And if they can't take time off work for community service they're also unlikely to have the money for a fine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A buddy I went to HS and College with got a DWI while he was in college. Basically, he had to pay a fine and have a suspended license for a period of time. Twenty years later he was leaving a bar and cop was waiting to pull people over leaving the bar. He had about 3 drinks and failed the breathalyzer. Because of this was his second DWI he got a suspended license for a year and had to pay thousands in fines. He works full time as an independent contractor fixing peoples houses. He has 3 kids to feed. So he basically had to drive with a suspended license to take care of his family.

Sorry, but I don't have sympathy in this case. Having three kids to feed is no reason to go around endangering people's lives. This guy most certainly didn't only commit two DWIs.

- - - Updated - - -

Another interesting case, the brother of my brother-in-law (not sure what that makes him to me), had a job as a Fortran programer on big iron. He was making 100K a year. He lost his job due to downsizing and the shift away from big iron computers. Fortran was the only language he new; he tried really hard to get a new job and couldn't. In the mean time he missed his child support payments and in my state if you don't keep up with child support you go to jail. He was sentenced to one year in prison with a felony. When he got out the only job he could find was sorting books for a publisher at minimum wage. He lost his house and had to move in with relatives.

Yeah, we go nuts with child support enforcement.

No matter what your programming language you're liable to be cast aside as you get older.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually, no. There's no obligation to report your assets unless they are held in foreign bank accounts or substantial interests in foreign corporations. (And these rules exist to ensure the income gets reported.)

You must report income, not assets.



As for the general idea: I hate it.

1) Net worth is a really bad idea--entrepreneurs might have a lot of paper wealth without much liquid wealth. (For a period of years my former boss was worth upwards of $10M on paper--but it was totally illiquid and in the end something like $20M went poof over three years, leaving him destitute.)

2) It provides an incentive to law enforcement to hunt the rich. The financial motivations for tickets are bad enough now, this would make it worse.

I think the real answer is to go the opposite direction: I would like to see the fine abolished as a means of punishment of individuals. Things that carry fines now would carry community service penalties instead. An hour is an hour if you're a beggar or Bill Gates.

It also removes the financial incentive the state has for imposing fines.

no one is goning to hunt rich people and the whole point of the exercise to not cause people to have to pay money they don't have.

The cops already write basically scam tickets to make money. I've gotten one--to continue endangered nobody, their "pedestrian" couldn't get to my lane by the time I crossed the crosswalk. To stop for him would have left rubber on the road and just asked for a rear-end collision--and I'm not at all sure I could have stopped for him even then. (And I know the whole thing was a setup because there was no reason at all for anyone to be using that crosswalk--the only place it served was closed down and fenced off. If you were going anyplace else you were better served by the nearby traffic lights.)

Why in the world do you think they wouldn't do more of it if there was more money to be made?

 

[NobleSavage]

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again: The average cop brings in $300,000 a year in speeding tickets. http://www.statisticbrain.com/driving-citation-statistics/

 

[Justin Z]

A buddy I went to HS and College with got a DWI while he was in college. Basically, he had to pay a fine and have a suspended license for a period of time. Twenty years later he was leaving a bar and cop was waiting to pull people over leaving the bar. He had about 3 drinks and failed the breathalyzer. Because of this was his second DWI he got a suspended license for a year and had to pay thousands in fines. He works full time as an independent contractor fixing peoples houses. He has 3 kids to feed. So he basically had to drive with a suspended license to take care of his family.

Bummed your buddy didn't get an attorney because a cop waiting outside a bar is most likely "casing" and a clear fourth amendment violation, unless he had a valid pretext for the stop aside from your friend leaving a bar parking lot.

 

[Justin Z]

Also, sliding scale fines based on income are done in Belgium and nobody even bats an eye at it.

 

[bilby]

So now that we have established - if there was any doubt - that the US legal system is seriously fucked up, can we get back to discussing the impact of sliding scale fines based on income (or wealth)?

Sure, if the fines today are for stupid offences that shouldn't be prosecuted at all; or if people are being wrongfully convicted and fined for stuff they didn't do to raise money in fines, then that is a terrible thing. But it is a derail from the question being discussed.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that a fine is a reasonable penalty to apply for a particular crime or misdemeanour, is it fairer to set the dollar value at a flat rate for the offence; or should the size of the fine be adjusted to take account of the criminal's ability to pay?

If it is the former, then you have a situation where the rich can ignore the law with little risk. In my opinion, that does not serve the purpose of discouraging citizens from breaking the law.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again: The average cop brings in $300,000 a year in speeding tickets. http://www.statisticbrain.com/driving-citation-statistics/

You posted this before? I must have missed it. I knew it was a racket but I didn't realize how much they took in.

And note that it's not just speeding tickets. There are red light tickets (sure, running a red light is a bad thing. That doesn't excuse setting the light timing to increase red light running and then stationing a cop there) and crosswalk tickets (I mentioned that scam upthread.)

In my experience a cop in ambush looking for offenders is almost certainly exploiting a situation where the rules don't match up with reality (for example, here state law prohibits turning on a red if there are multiple turn lanes. There is generally no safety reason against a turn on red from the outer lane, though, and thus drivers do it. The highest traffic such location I'm aware of is the site of frequent ticketfests) or else an outright scam (such as the crosswalk one I mentioned.) Drivers simply don't drive badly enough to make sitting in wait for them a sensible course of action.

 

[dismal]

If it is the former, then you have a situation where the rich can ignore the law with little risk. In my opinion, that does not serve the purpose of discouraging citizens from breaking the law.

Do you have some statistics indicating the rich are speeding at significantly higher rates than the poor or is this more of a feel good thing than an actual problem?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

no one is goning to hunt rich people and the whole point of the exercise to not cause people to have to pay money they don't have.

The cops already write basically scam tickets to make money. I've gotten one--to continue endangered nobody, their "pedestrian" couldn't get to my lane by the time I crossed the crosswalk. To stop for him would have left rubber on the road and just asked for a rear-end collision--and I'm not at all sure I could have stopped for him even then. (And I know the whole thing was a setup because there was no reason at all for anyone to be using that crosswalk--the only place it served was closed down and fenced off. If you were going anyplace else you were better served by the nearby traffic lights.)

Why in the world do you think they wouldn't do more of it if there was more money to be made?

so are you suggesting that that you are rich, the police ticketed you because you are rich after they hunted you down because you are rich and made you pay money you didn't have?

 

[dystopian]

The cops already write basically scam tickets to make money. I've gotten one--to continue endangered nobody, their "pedestrian" couldn't get to my lane by the time I crossed the crosswalk. To stop for him would have left rubber on the road and just asked for a rear-end collision--and I'm not at all sure I could have stopped for him even then. (And I know the whole thing was a setup because there was no reason at all for anyone to be using that crosswalk--the only place it served was closed down and fenced off. If you were going anyplace else you were better served by the nearby traffic lights.)

Why in the world do you think they wouldn't do more of it if there was more money to be made?

so are you suggesting that that you are rich, the police ticketed you because you are rich after they hunted you down because you are rich and made you pay money you didn't have?

No, he's saying IT'S A CONSPIRACY

 

[Emily Lake]

If it is the former, then you have a situation where the rich can ignore the law with little risk. In my opinion, that does not serve the purpose of discouraging citizens from breaking the law.

Do you have some statistics indicating the rich are speeding at significantly higher rates than the poor or is this more of a feel good thing than an actual problem?

What does the rate of law-breaking have to do with it?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The cops already write basically scam tickets to make money. I've gotten one--to continue endangered nobody, their "pedestrian" couldn't get to my lane by the time I crossed the crosswalk. To stop for him would have left rubber on the road and just asked for a rear-end collision--and I'm not at all sure I could have stopped for him even then. (And I know the whole thing was a setup because there was no reason at all for anyone to be using that crosswalk--the only place it served was closed down and fenced off. If you were going anyplace else you were better served by the nearby traffic lights.)

Why in the world do you think they wouldn't do more of it if there was more money to be made?

so are you suggesting that that you are rich, the police ticketed you because you are rich after they hunted you down because you are rich and made you pay money you didn't have?

I said nothing about rich in regards to the status quo. They get the same amount of money from everyone, they have no reason to be selective in who they pick on.