I was ashamed by sexism in a diner.

[Jarhyn]

So, this might be a really fucked up kinda thing to post here. It happened about an hour ago or so, and it was a very emotional time for me. Because it made me afraid. I felt I could not say anything in the context, but it was not ok to have been said or even stood for in the setting. It is an issue of gender politics and an issue of philosophy. Maybe it belongs in philosophy. But to me, this is political.

As scared and threatened I felt there, now I feel angry and justified only under the reasonable protection that nobody really knows me here. And they won't be attacked, but that people will not feel alone in seeing how problematic such views are.

I was in a cafe with my husband. I was having a bit of an overwhelming experience among all the people, and not knowing how or even if there was a line to order. We grabbed menus and sat down. He went to order somewhere else while I tried to have some isolation to gain my bearing, at a small table. And that's when a woman at the next table over started talking publicly about her interpretation of what seemed to be an awful piece of media from a foreign country that will remain anonymous(1).

She depicted it as a wonderful Utopia where women had every right to be as masculine as men are today. To have small breasts. Perhaps none? To be as they wished. And I agree with this entirely. It was something that warmed my heart. But she had a sound in her voice. I couldn't place it at first. And then my worries were realized. She went there. The next reveal of her review was a glowing praise of a sexist knife: "and the men are totally oppressed, and treated like women are today, totally effeminate."

She gushed over this fantastic arrangement. And then she stopped talking about it. It made me feel *awful*. Part of what made me feel awful was because I couldn't say anything. The fact I don't trust bystanders to even understand or to have heard the bullshit, and my lack of faith that I would have had the side of the public, however right I am here. Because I want to continue to be a man and decide what that means for me. There was not the time to communicate the context, so as not be the bad guy.

And you know what? Some of that context involves me, wishing I could try wearing a dress to a nice event even if I naturally move kind of apishly, and will not wear makeup. I would love to rock some heels. I would not like to be expected to. I do not want to be looked down on for that. I can rock some combat boots and soldier, too. I have. I liked it but I didn't like the people I did it with, or the reasons they did it, or their own miserable sexism and gay bashing culture.

My point is that she explicitly loved the use of force. It never turned around. It took too long to order and I felt trapped to either lose my shit in the crowd or die inside as she said it. Even when my husband got back, she continued and I could only nod my head in the "I feel hurt but this person" body language, while crying silently. I heard until she chose to change the subject to something my husband hated about the Middle East and how she wished she could see them do that there. I couldn't accuse her. I would have made a scene and gotten kicked out or even sued. I didn't have a phone that could record it. I had no social weapon. I have no *proof*, and if I was forced to weild it, I feel I would have no side that I would let side with me. I do not feel women should be degraded for doing or being as they wish, whether that means dress or tux or something else entirely. I don't feel they should be prohibited from being football players, even if they decide to use hormones to become stronger and larger. That kind of turns me on. And I don't care if someone decides that they are a man. Just as I don't wish anyone to mistake me for a woman, were I to wear a dress that flattered my ass and accentuated my meaty, hairy legs. I would like them to simply not make assumptions. Regardless of if I were not tucking the sausage.

The point is, I felt attacked for being a man, and for not being born a woman. And terrified for what people like her would say of my husband, who wasn't there to hear most of it. But he is a man who didn't get a choice about how he was raised because of what he was born with. And my ex (wife) didn't get much of a choice either. I wish I had supported her earlier even if it meant divorcing her sooner. Regardless, he said one of them gave an "I hate you" smile as they passed; my husband felt attacked for being exactly as she described women in her idyllic culture but for wanting to be accepted as a man.

Everything about this is fucked up. Don't be this woman. Don't be the masculine version of this woman, praising and dehumanizing women. And men like me.







(1)I refuse to "blame Canada", or let others. It is the idea that is as she praised it that is awful, not the place it was originated.

 

[poster]

Humans are capable of saying dumb things or smart things at any given moment, the trick is to understand that they're carrying their shit around too and ignore what they say.

I often feel uncomfortable in social settings and can panic too, but I also deal with homeowners one on one often for my work. What I see most of the time is that they have to work hard in order to fight through their own shit too in order to accomplish the task at hand. That knowledge often eases my discomfort.

It sounds like you might have run into someone who feels the need to judge people in order to reduce their own anxiety.

Gotta let it go. That's all you can do. Meditate it away, reason it away, or laugh it off, but let it go. That's my advice. Good luck with it.

ETA: And just be who you are.

 

[Angry Floof]

/mod

 

[Angry Floof]

/mod

 

[Jarhyn]

Humans are capable of saying dumb things or smart things at any given moment, the trick is to understand that they're carrying their shit around too and ignore what they say.

I often feel uncomfortable in social settings and can panic too, but I also deal with homeowners one on one often for my work. What I see most of the time is that they have to work hard in order to fight through their own shit too in order to accomplish the task at hand. That knowledge often eases my discomfort.

It sounds like you might have run into someone who feels the need to judge people in order to reduce their own anxiety.

Gotta let it go. That's all you can do. Meditate it away, reason it away, or laugh it off, but let it go. That's my advice. Good luck with it.

ETA: And just be who you are.

My point though, I guess, is that sexism isn't OK from any direction. Where are the feminists when this happens? Where are the women, the only ones who, like it or not, are the only ones in our society today with the power to say NO to this kind of sexism? Because I can't shout that down, especially not in public.

This is something we need open dialogue about, it's something that people could counter, not through violence but through discussion, not through censorship, but through response. It's something that women have a unique obligation to do. But for some reason the feminists in society seem silent about this bullshit. You hear a lot about sexism from men. But it's not OK from anyone.

 

[Angry Floof]

I think that was one moron, and they are everywhere. When men, particularly white men, systematically, routinely don't get jobs, or they get less pay, or they get passed over for promotions, or 1 in 3 people who are like them are harassed or assaulted or killed every day, or they spend their time protecting themselves against possible attacks while just living their damn lives, or they are all but invisible in history, or their bodies are controlled, shamed, and legislated by women, then I'll be concerned about something like this.

Both sides are NOT the same. You're gonna have to think a bit bigger than yourself if you really want to understand that sexism hurts women and girls, not men, and why it's truly a disease of humanity and not just a personal feelings complaint.

 

[Bomb#20]

... And that's when a woman at the next table over started talking publicly about her interpretation of what seemed to be an awful piece of media from a foreign country that will remain anonymous(1).

She depicted it as a wonderful Utopia where women had every right to be as masculine as men are today. To have small breasts. Perhaps none? To be as they wished. And I agree with this entirely. It was something that warmed my heart. But she had a sound in her voice. I couldn't place it at first. And then my worries were realized. She went there. The next reveal of her review was a glowing praise of a sexist knife: "and the men are totally oppressed, and treated like women are today, totally effeminate."

She gushed over this fantastic arrangement. ...

As I read this, my first thought was that the woman was talking about "The Power". I highly recommend it. (The Naomi Alderman novel, not the future society it depicts!)

 

[barbos]

... And that's when a woman at the next table over started talking publicly about her interpretation of what seemed to be an awful piece of media from a foreign country that will remain anonymous(1).

She depicted it as a wonderful Utopia where women had every right to be as masculine as men are today. To have small breasts. Perhaps none? To be as they wished. And I agree with this entirely. It was something that warmed my heart. But she had a sound in her voice. I couldn't place it at first. And then my worries were realized. She went there. The next reveal of her review was a glowing praise of a sexist knife: "and the men are totally oppressed, and treated like women are today, totally effeminate."

She gushed over this fantastic arrangement. ...

As I read this, my first thought was that the woman was talking about "The Power". I highly recommend it. (The Naomi Alderman novel, not the future society it depicts!)

My first thought was Star Trek episode Angel One, I don't recommend it
Also , just stumbled upon this:

Drunk' female trooper in 3am sex assault on male Windsor Castle guard is let off with a reprimand 'because she's a woman

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-male-Windsor-Castle-guard-let-reprimand.html
Could interest Derec

 

[Jarhyn]

I think that was one moron, and they are everywhere. When men, particularly white men, systematically, routinely don't get jobs, or they get less pay, or they get passed over for promotions, or 1 in 3 people who are like them are harassed or assaulted or killed every day, or they spend their time protecting themselves against possible attacks while just living their damn lives, or they are all but invisible in history, or their bodies are controlled, shamed, and legislated by women, then I'll be concerned about something like this.

Both sides are NOT the same. You're gonna have to think a bit bigger than yourself if you really want to understand that sexism hurts women and girls, not men, and why it's truly a disease of humanity and not just a personal feelings complaint.

Both sides are not the same. And I never claimed they were. But both sides definitely do have the same obligations to speak up when they hear sexism, and say NO. You cannot seriously sell men, without rank hypocrisy, that this kind of harping for oppression is wrong when applied to women, while ignoring the women who are also doing it. One of the reasons why the left is not the same as the right, is that Al Franken chose to end his political career over an allegation that was thinking as tissue, and we criticise the right for not ousting pedophiles. We talk in great detail here over how it is unethical there for them to ignore such unethical behavior. And we, for the most part, maintain we are better because we police ourselves, and don't allow bullshit in our own house. Well guess what? This is bullshit in our own house. It still needs to be shut down.

 

[Angry Floof]

I think that was one moron, and they are everywhere. When men, particularly white men, systematically, routinely don't get jobs, or they get less pay, or they get passed over for promotions, or 1 in 3 people who are like them are harassed or assaulted or killed every day, or they spend their time protecting themselves against possible attacks while just living their damn lives, or they are all but invisible in history, or their bodies are controlled, shamed, and legislated by women, then I'll be concerned about something like this.

Both sides are NOT the same. You're gonna have to think a bit bigger than yourself if you really want to understand that sexism hurts women and girls, not men, and why it's truly a disease of humanity and not just a personal feelings complaint.

Both sides are not the same. And I never claimed they were. But both sides definitely do have the same obligations to speak up when they hear sexism, and say NO. You cannot seriously sell men, without rank hypocrisy, that this kind of harping for oppression is wrong when applied to women, while ignoring the women who are also doing it. One of the reasons why the left is not the same as the right, is that Al Franken chose to end his political career over an allegation that was thinking as tissue, and we criticise the right for not ousting pedophiles. We talk in great detail here over how it is unethical there for them to ignore such unethical behavior. And we, for the most part, maintain we are better because we police ourselves, and don't allow bullshit in our own house. Well guess what? This is bullshit in our own house. It still needs to be shut down.

We have seven billion people in the world and most of them say stupid, wrong shit. But not all of what they say actually reflects any kind of real threat to anyone.

There is no threat to men in any country or time or place that even comes close to what women and girls live with and have for millennia. Your being disturbed by overhearing one woman's sci fi fantasy is not really a problem with widespread consequences in the lives of real human beings.

Sure, feel free to point out wrongheaded statements if you like. It's always worthwhile. But don't imagine yourself threatened in any real way. Maybe spend some time reading the #metoo stories that social media has been saturated with lately. Do you do that? Or do you have the luxury of not having to worry yourself with "girl stuff" such as rape, assault, and injustice?

 

[Rhea]

Sure, feel free to point out wrongheaded statements if you like. It's always worthwhile. But don't imagine yourself threatened in any real way. Maybe spend some time reading the #metoo stories that social media has been saturated with lately. Do you do that? Or do you have the luxury of not having to worry yourself with "girl stuff" such as rape, assault, and injustice?

I think you may have been too harsh for circumstances here.

For one thing, I believe Jarhyn has been sexually assaulted, if I am remembering the right story from the right person.

And second, I think he does have a point that tolerating that kind of talk can definitely be unnerving for homosexuals dining with their same-sex spouse.

Thirdly, I think another point is that stopping talk of violent oppression helps women in that it makes it NEVER okay which is easier to use in society than, "it's okay if the victim is vile enough," which is exactly the logic that oppressors use.

 

[Jarhyn]

Sure, feel free to point out wrongheaded statements if you like. It's always worthwhile. But don't imagine yourself threatened in any real way. Maybe spend some time reading the #metoo stories that social media has been saturated with lately. Do you do that? Or do you have the luxury of not having to worry yourself with "girl stuff" such as rape, assault, and injustice?

I think you may have been too harsh for circumstances here.

For one thing, I believe Jarhyn has been sexually assaulted, if I am remembering the right story from the right person.

And second, I think he does have a point that tolerating that kind of talk can definitely be unnerving for homosexuals dining with their same-sex spouse.

Thirdly, I think another point is that stopping talk of violent oppression helps women in that it makes it NEVER okay which is easier to use in society than, "it's okay if the victim is vile enough," which is exactly the logic that oppressors use.

Yes. All of this. Thank you. When men, particularly bi/homosexual men, bring such concerns, this is a common way they are shouted down. My point is that its never OK to call for oppression. It is certainly everyone's right, but it also shouldn't ever be accepted from anyone without rational challenge. Just as molestation shouldn't be accepted by Al Franken even as we reject it being done by Donald Trump.

I'm fucking sick of being told, pointlessly and without any good effect, who I ought be and how I ought act because of what I was born with between my legs. I think a lot of women are tired of that too. Edit: I don't think that anyone has a right to insist that I have to be the way that they want me to be even if I don't mind being that way, given the opportunity to do so without consequence.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

There is no threat to men in any country or time or place that even comes close to what women and girls live with and have for millennia. Your being disturbed by overhearing one woman's sci fi fantasy is not really a problem with widespread consequences in the lives of real human beings.

This is a prime example for the whataboutism thread, and also a prime example of toxic identity politics. It doesn't matter what the person's gender is. It is still wrong. They are a human being.