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If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Speakpigeon

Contributor
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
6,317
Location
Paris, France, EU
Basic Beliefs
Rationality (i.e. facts + logic), Scepticism (not just about God but also everything beyond my subjective experience)
If I can imagine it, it's logically possible.

Test: square circle? No, I can't.

Test: The Earth is flat? Yes, I can.

Test: God? Well, I sure can imagine something, but I wouldn't say it looks like God. So, me, I can't.

OK, it's good to me, if I can imagine it, it's logically possible.
EB
 
If I can imagine it, it's logically possible.

Test: square circle? No, I can't.

Test: The Earth is flat? Yes, I can.

Test: God? Well, I sure can imagine something, but I wouldn't say it looks like God. So, me, I can't.

OK, it's good to me, if I can imagine it, it's logically possible.
EB
There are concepts that you can imagine - or at least think you can imagine - which aren't logically possible.

Can you imagine squaring the circle? Lots of mathematicians thought they could until it was proven to be impossible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle

Can you imagine a program that always perfectly predicts whether a given program will halt on a given input? Probably you do think you can imagine that, but it's not logically possible, as Turing proved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

Can you imagine an anti-virus program that repels every computer virus? That's also impossible! (I doubt that Wikipedia has an entry for this, but there is a proof in my computer security textbook.)

Can you imagine a set of all sets that don't include themselves? Probably so, but it's not logically possible for such a set to exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox

Can you imagine a consistent geometry that doesn't obey Euclid's axioms? Nobody could until non-Euclidean geometry was discovered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry

This is also very subjective. You say you cannot imagine God, but plenty of people think they can. Whose imagination is the standard for logical possibility?
 
I should have defined my terminology:

Imagine
1. To form a mental picture or image of: imagined a better life abroad.

I always forgot most people are very nearly illiterate.

What you imagine is never God or Santa Claus or a square circle.

Rather, you imagine something and you call that God, Santa Claus or a square circle, or even more often you say you imagine without actually doing it.

And, my claim relates to what you imagine as you imagine it. It's easy to imagine an old man dressed in a red coat and call than imagining Santa Claus. Right. Who is going to care?

Still, it is logically possible that there is an old man dressed in a red coat. So, you see, if I can imagine it, it's a logical possibility. Right. We all know that.

Try to imagine a new society, in a realistic way. I don't think anyone can do that beyond a sketch. Try imagining a square circle in a realistic way. No way. God? LOL.

So, sure, whatever you're able to imagine, it's a logical possibility (assuming you're not insane, not a zombie, not dead etc.). But try to look honestly at what it is exactly you imagine. Any idiot who did a little creative work knows how hard it is to imagine something you never had the experience of. Try to write a novel, a good example of imagining possible human relationships. Realistic novels that are also imaginative are very few. Most novels are essentially a rehash of experience, which is the easy route to logical possibility because you know it very nearly already exists. Like drawing what you see.
EB
 
There are concepts that you can imagine - or at least think you can imagine - which aren't logically possible.

You can imagine or you can't. I'm not talking about can't. If you can, then it's a logical possibility.

Can you imagine squaring the circle? Lots of mathematicians thought they could until it was proven to be impossible.

No they never imagined a square circle.

Some people believed a square circle might be possible. They even have spent their whole like trying to prove their belief true. But not once did they imagine a square circle.

Can you imagine a program that always perfectly predicts whether a given program will halt on a given input? Probably you do think you can imagine that, but it's not logically possible, as Turing proved.

You see I stopped at "perfectly". I can't imagine "perfectly". Looking at the rest, well, no. I did a lot of programmation for my job and I know you don't imagine a programme. You write it. Same for all complex tasks. Management, military operations, sending men on the Moon.

Still, some people will do the hard job of imagining complex things. If they do that, then it's logically possibly. However, what is logically possible is exactly what they imagined, not necessarily what they say they have imagined. And most of the time, what people imagine is not realistic and never get to be realised. In effect, what people imagine is usually not realisable in practice. But, it will still be logically possible.

Can you imagine an anti-virus program that repels every computer virus? That's also impossible! (I doubt that Wikipedia has an entry for this, but there is a proof in my computer security textbook.)

You can't imagine that realistically. I don't think anyone sane would believe they can but that would be irrelevant. You can't imagine it. Whatever anyone did imagine was logically possible, though. But, what they imagine wouldn't be realisable. It wouldn't work.

Can you imagine a set of all sets that don't include themselves? Probably so, but it's not logically possible for such a set to exist.

Probably so? Whoa. No. Definitely not.

Whatever mathematician may have imagined it wasn't the set of all sets that don't include themselves. They imagined something, but not the set itself.

Can you imagine a consistent geometry that doesn't obey Euclid's axioms? Nobody could until non-Euclidean geometry was discovered.

So what? How does that falsify my claim? You're being illogical here.

For your information, at 14 I invented form scratch a new type of perspective similar to that of the fish-eye, before I saw my first fish-eye photo. I imagined it, and not only was it logically possible but it turned out to be actual.

And so you failed to mention that when non-Euclidean geometry was first proposed, people still though it couldn't exist. It's only with General Relativity that it became clear that not only was it a logical possibility but there was a probability that it was actual.

This is also very subjective. You say you cannot imagine God, but plenty of people think they can. Whose imagination is the standard for logical possibility?

People don't imagine God. They imagine something they call God. So, again, whatever people imagine, assuming their brain works well, it is logically possible. Still, where would be the problem with imagining that God exists? How would that be a counterexample to my thesis?
EB
 
All is imagination.
Reality is your imagination of what is, to you, the current state of reality. The map is not the territory.
A plan is imagination of what is, to you, a possible future.
A daydream is imagination of what is, to you, a possible or impossible future. If I were president.
A dream is imagination unconstrained by reality. I can fly like Superman.
 
I can imagine myself flapping my arms and flying.
I can imagine having sex with 100 young women who exist only to please me.
Ican imagine war between NATO and Russia.
I can imagine the future use of nuclear weapons.
 
All is imagination.
Reality is your imagination of what is, to you, the current state of reality. The map is not the territory.
A plan is imagination of what is, to you, a possible future.
A daydream is imagination of what is, to you, a possible or impossible future. If I were president.
A dream is imagination unconstrained by reality. I can fly like Superman.

Certainly not as I meant the word "imagine" here, which happens to be what is usually meant, according to dictionaries I don't need to imagine...
Imagine
1. To form a mental picture or image of: imagined a better life abroad.

Perception is not imagination.

Sensations, memories, reflection, conception, intuition etc. are not imagination.

You're merely redefining the word "imagination". So, derail.

EB
 
If I can imagine it, it's logically possible.

Reminds me of those officers convinced that if an order was grammatically correct, it could be obeyed. Not concerned with law, tech, physics....

Try again whenever you can articulate a point relevant to the topic.

I won't try to read your mind.

Although the best explanation is that you understand diddly squat about logical possibility.
EB

- - - Updated - - -

I can imagine myself flapping my arms and flying.
I can imagine having sex with 100 young women who exist only to please me.
Ican imagine war between NATO and Russia.
I can imagine the future use of nuclear weapons.

No you can't.

Saying you do won't do.
EB
 
All is imagination.
Reality is your imagination of what is, to you, the current state of reality. The map is not the territory.
A plan is imagination of what is, to you, a possible future.
A daydream is imagination of what is, to you, a possible or impossible future. If I were president.
A dream is imagination unconstrained by reality. I can fly like Superman.

Certainly not as I meant the word "imagine" here, which happens to be what is usually meant, according to dictionaries I don't need to imagine...
Imagine
1. To form a mental picture or image of: imagined a better life abroad.

Perception is not imagination.

Sensations, memories, reflection, conception, intuition etc. are not imagination.

You're merely redefining the word "imagination". So, derail.

EB

What you do with those perceptions is generate a story about reality in your head. A "map" of reality. "Forming a mental image of..." Have you ever gotten a fact wrong? Had a memory (map) that turned out to not be the case? To this degree you are imagining.

As for being a derail, let's just take the last one: I can imagine flying like Superman, so "If I can imagine it, it's logically possible" is false. Right on topic.
 
I can imagine flying like Superman, so "If I can imagine it, it's logically possible" is false. Right on topic.

Learn about logical possibility first and then articulate your point.

A proposition is logically possible if it doesn't contradict your assumptions. So, it all depends on what assumption you make to begin with. If you assume a realistic setup, i.e. if you assume that the laws of physics apply, then what is logically possible is very much constrained. It is broadly limited to what is physical possible, although not quite since we wouldn't here assume any initial conditions and initial conditions obviously would further limit the range of physically possible outcomes. However, at the extreme, there is, arguably, only one physical reality and therefore only one physical possibility, i.e. what actually is. Yet, we can only operate with a more or less limited knowledge of the current state of the physical world and so we talk of "physical possibilities" even though what we are really talking about are logical possibilities assuming the laws of nature. And then, we may choose to ignore the laws of nature altogether, in a sort of counterfactual scenario, to imagine a fanciful Santa Claus. However, the two sets of logical possibilities have nothing in common between a fanciful Santa Claus and a realistic Santa Claus.

The counterexamples posters have been proposing here are all ineffective because they are equivocations.
EB
 
I can imagine flying like Superman, so "If I can imagine it, it's logically possible" is false. Right on topic.

Learn about logical possibility first and then articulate your point.

A proposition is logically possible if it doesn't contradict your assumptions. So, it all depends on what assumption you make to begin with. If you assume a realistic setup, i.e. if you assume that the laws of physics apply, then what is logically possible is very much constrained. It is broadly limited to what is physical possible, although not quite since we wouldn't here assume any initial conditions and initial conditions obviously would further limit the range of physically possible outcomes. However, at the extreme, there is, arguably, only one physical reality and therefore only one physical possibility, i.e. what actually is. Yet, we can only operate with a more or less limited knowledge of the current state of the physical world and so we talk of "physical possibilities" even though what we are really talking about are logical possibilities assuming the laws of nature. And then, we may choose to ignore the laws of nature altogether, in a sort of counterfactual scenario, to imagine a fanciful Santa Claus. However, the two sets of logical possibilities have nothing in common between a fanciful Santa Claus and a realistic Santa Claus.

The counterexamples posters have been proposing here are all ineffective because they are equivocations.
EB

If I can imagine assumptions that lead to something impossible in reality, and can be possible under those assumptions it may be "logically possible". How is this useful in any way?
Anything at all can be proven from false assumptions. So that kind of "possible" is rather silly. Certainly not useful in any sense except playing with logic. From the assumption 0=1 pigs can fly. So what? This the heart of modus tolens. When a result impossible in reality is logically found from the assumptions then at least one assumption is false.

Sure, in an impossible world, magic works. So what?

Assuming "If I can imagine it, its logically possible" then pigs can fly. How is this useful?

Knowing that a valid argument can yield falsehood if the premises are false is good to know. That, of course, is well known already.


ETA: You seem to saying that a valid argument yields logical possibility. Logical possibility is freedom from self-contradiction, explicit or implicit. So any valid argument yields "logical possibility." So what?
 
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Creative visualization is taught as a technique to achieve goals. Been around a long time. I think it is also used in medical therapy.
 
If I can imagine assumptions that lead to something impossible in reality, and can be possible under those assumptions it may be "logically possible". How is this useful in any way?
Anything at all can be proven from false assumptions. So that kind of "possible" is rather silly. Certainly not useful in any sense except playing with logic. From the assumption 0=1 pigs can fly. So what? This the heart of modus tolens. When a result impossible in reality is logically found from the assumptions then at least one assumption is false.
Sure, in an impossible world, magic works. So what?
Assuming "If I can imagine it, its logically possible" then pigs can fly. How is this useful?
Knowing that a valid argument can yield falsehood if the premises are false is good to know. That, of course, is well known already.
ETA: You seem to saying that a valid argument yields logical possibility. Logical possibility is freedom from self-contradiction, explicit or implicit. So any valid argument yields "logical possibility." So what

Derail.

It's not me who invented the notion of logical possibility. Logical validity has been understood since the Stoics as independent of the actual truth of the premises considered: Socrates is a snail; All snails walk faster than light; Therefore, Socrates walk faster than light. OK? If you can accept that this argument is logically valid then you're not logical, literally, at least not in the conventional sense, and then there's nothing we could possibly discuss in any meaningful sense. Learn logic and come back when you can demonstrate you have.
EB
 
Creative visualization is taught as a technique to achieve goals. Been around a long time. I think it is also used in medical therapy.

Oh, sure. It has to have been around at least since people started to plan ahead, since I doubt our ancestors discovered conceptual thought straightaway. Think also of all those people, indeed most people, without any formal training, who therefore can only essentially rely on their imagination to go through life. Most people, including many people here, are not very good at abstract, conceptual, thinking, so imagination has to be the workhorse of human intelligence.

Basically, it's common sense.
EB
 
Although the best explanation is that you understand diddly squat about logical possibility.
Which also happens to remind me of a few officers.
Fun thread. Much nostalgia.

He is demonstrating the classical diddly squat logical falsehood. First identified by the ancient Greek logician Cyrus Diddly. It came to him while squatting on a latrine.
 
@Speakpigeon, what would you accept as a counterexample to your thesis?
 
@Speakpigeon, what would you accept as a counterexample to your thesis?

A counterexample would have to be something you can imagine that is logically impossible.

So first, it would have to be something that shows the person understands the concept of logical possibility. So far, haven't seen anyone here providing any answer suggesting they do.

Also, it would have to be an actual instance of imagining. This may seem trivial but no. Most people don't pay attention to the fact that conceiving is not imagining. Nor is just thinking about something. Nor is remembering. Nor is dreaming. Nor is having an impression of something. Nor is hallucinating. Quite few people have provided that kind of "counterexamples".

And then, you would need to articulate what it is you actually imagined. Merely claiming "I can imagine an actual Santa Claus" won't do.

OK, I obviously couldn't specify any further without exhibiting an actual counterexample and I don't have one. So, I hope that's clear enough as it is.
EB
 
 Logical Possibility
Logically possible refers to a proposition which can be the logical consequence of another, based on the axioms of a given system of logic.

So, any valid argument yields (their version of) logical possibility.

When I made that claim you told me
Learn logic and come back when you can demonstrate you have.
I tested out of the logic course offered by the University of Wisconsin by taking the final exam and passing it having attended no classes.

What is your definition of logical possibility?

To you, hallucinating is not imagining. So, what is your definition of imagining?


Christians imagine that prayers work. So do they work?
 
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