I'm afraid the fundy christians and the fundy muslims are gonna get us all killed.

[dismal]

False dichotomy ruling the day.

It's entirely possible there are hundreds of millions of muslims that condemn terrorism *and* hundred of millions of muslims that support Sharia law and death for apostasy and heresy.

I've checked and the math works.

 

[Jayjay]

Not in our name – Muslims respond in revulsion to Charlie Hebdo massacre

Just what do Muslims have to do to prove themselves as good people?

What's the first step in a twelve-step program for alcoholics? Admitting that you have a problem.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Not in our name – Muslims respond in revulsion to Charlie Hebdo massacre

Just what do Muslims have to do to prove themselves as good people?

What's the first step in a twelve-step program for alcoholics? Admitting that you have a problem.

Let's cut to the chase

So you don't want them to condemn terrorism. You want them to stop being Muslim?

 

[NobleSavage]

Just what do Muslims have to do to prove themselves as good people?

Those aren't TRUE Muslims.

 

[Jayjay]

What's the first step in a twelve-step program for alcoholics? Admitting that you have a problem.

Let's cut to the chase

So you don't want them to condemn terrorism. You want them to stop being Muslim?

The two are not mutually exclusive. It's easy to condemn something while being in denial that you are part of it. The tweets behind that link show quite a few condemnation like "those were not real muslims" or "muslims cannot be terrorists"... in other words, sticking their head in the sand and pretending there is no problem, because it's not them doing it, but someone else. Of course the easy thing to do is to deconvert, but barring that they should direct their rage against their own communities instead of just posing for outsiders. Are the goingto demand their imams to tone down their sermons? Are they going to be more vigilant in watching their relatives and neighbours so they don't get suckered by the radicals? Or what? Just being outraged and doing nothing else is pretty meaningless.

Similar thoughts can be seen in other religions and ideologies. Bad things your tribe does is always explained away somehow.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Let's cut to the chase

So you don't want them to condemn terrorism. You want them to stop being Muslim?

The two are not mutually exclusive. It's easy to condemn something while being in denial that you are part of it. The tweets behind that link show quite a few condemnation like "those were not real muslims" or "muslims cannot be terrorists"... in other words, sticking their head in the sand and pretending there is no problem, because it's not them doing it, but someone else. Of course the easy thing to do is to deconvert, but barring that they should direct their rage against their own communities instead of just posing for outsiders. Are the goingto demand their imams to tone down their sermons? Are they going to be more vigilant in watching their relatives and neighbours so they don't get suckered by the radicals? Or what? Just being outraged and doing nothing else is pretty meaningless.

Similar thoughts can be seen in other religions and ideologies. Bad things your tribe does is always explained away somehow.

What specifically should be done?

Stonings?
beheadings?
forced consumption of Gogurt?

What?

What would satisfy you?

 

[dismal]

What's the first step in a twelve-step program for alcoholics? Admitting that you have a problem.

Let's cut to the chase

So you don't want them to condemn terrorism. You want them to stop being Muslim?

Condemning terrorism seems like a pretty low bar. What sort of person doesn't condemn killing cartoonists over cartoons? beheading journalists? Kidnapping schoolgirls into sex slavery?

I don't give a crap about someone being a Muslim as long as they make no attempt to export their beliefs onto me with anything stronger than words (no guns, swords, bombs or laws). Because I don't want to live in a world where I am subject to their beliefs.

 

[NobleSavage]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...sis_baghdadi_caliphate_s_actions_against.html

More than 120 Muslim leaders and scholars have co-signed an open letter to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS, arguing the Islamic State caliphate's establishment and practices are not legitimate in Islam. The letter includes a technical point-by-point criticism of ISIS' actions and ideology based on the Quran and classical religious texts.

I sent a similar link to a conservative christian friend of mine. Her response was "haha who are they trying to fool." Are there any Christians out there who will join forces with these Muslim leaders, on just ONE point: lets not kill each other?

 

[Jayjay]

The two are not mutually exclusive. It's easy to condemn something while being in denial that you are part of it. The tweets behind that link show quite a few condemnation like "those were not real muslims" or "muslims cannot be terrorists"... in other words, sticking their head in the sand and pretending there is no problem, because it's not them doing it, but someone else. Of course the easy thing to do is to deconvert, but barring that they should direct their rage against their own communities instead of just posing for outsiders. Are the goingto demand their imams to tone down their sermons? Are they going to be more vigilant in watching their relatives and neighbours so they don't get suckered by the radicals? Or what? Just being outraged and doing nothing else is pretty meaningless.

Similar thoughts can be seen in other religions and ideologies. Bad things your tribe does is always explained away somehow.

What specifically should be done?

Stonings?
beheadings?
forced consumption of Gogurt?

What?

What would satisfy you?

How about preventing or stopping future terrorist attacks?

Like I said, the easy solution is for muslism to just resign from their dumbass religion. If they don't want to do that, then it's up to them to figure out some other way to stop the terrorists. I am not part of their tribe, so I can only offer general advice.

 

[Warpoet]

How about preventing or stopping future terrorist attacks?

Like I said, the easy solution is for muslism to just resign from their dumbass religion. If they don't want to do that, then it's up to them to figure out some other way to stop the terrorists. I am not part of their tribe, so I can only offer general advice.

And yet you're perfectly comfortable blaming all 1.5 billion of them for what a few have done.

And shit like this is all too common on a forum that's supposedly dedicated to "rational" thinking.

 

[Shadowy Man]

What's the first step in a twelve-step program for alcoholics? Admitting that you have a problem.

Let's cut to the chase

So you don't want them to condemn terrorism. You want them to stop being Muslim?

Exactly. Just like all those Catholics who gave up their faith after the priest child-abuse scandals.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

How about preventing or stopping future terrorist attacks?

Like I said, the easy solution is for muslism to just resign from their dumbass religion. If they don't want to do that, then it's up to them to figure out some other way to stop the terrorists. I am not part of their tribe, so I can only offer general advice.

And yet you're perfectly comfortable blaming all 1.5 billion of them for what a few have done.

And shit like this is all too common on a forum that's supposedly dedicated to "rational" thinking.

AFUCKINGMEN

 

[dismal]

And yet you're perfectly comfortable blaming all 1.5 billion of them for what a few have done.

And shit like this is all too common on a forum that's supposedly dedicated to "rational" thinking.

AFUCKINGMEN

AFUCKINGstrawMAN, actually.

Is it possible for people here not to engage this fallacy that anything said about *some* Muslims is said about *all* Muslims?

Watch I'm going to say some things about *some* muslims now:

Some muslims believe in the imposition of sharia law.
Some muslims believe the penalty for apostasy should be death.
Some muslims believe the penalty for adultery should be stoning.
Some muslims believe alcohol should be banned.
Some muslims believe homosexuality is immoral.
Some muslims believe a woman should be obedient to her husband.
Some muslims believe evolution is a crock.

I do not intend to say these things apply to *all* muslims, nor do I believe these things apply to *all* muslims.

But, based on *evidence* I do believe that there are hundreds of millions of muslims that believe these things.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

 

[fromderinside]

AFUCKINGMEN

AFUCKINGstrawMAN, actually.

Is it possible for people here not to engage this fallacy that anything said about *some* Muslims is said about *all* Muslims?

Watch I'm going to say some things about *some* muslims now:

Some muslims believe in the imposition of sharia law.
Some muslims believe the penalty for apostasy should be death.
Some muslims believe the penalty for adultery should be stoning.
Some muslims believe alcohol should be banned.
Some muslims believe homosexuality is immoral.
Some muslims believe a woman should be obedient to her husband.
Some muslims believe evolution is a crock.

I do not intend to say these things apply to *all* muslims, nor do I believe these things apply to *all* muslims.

But, based on *evidence* I do believe that there are hundreds of millions of muslims that believe these things.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Wow. We should use those percentages as indicators of how uneducated these people are then if Afghanistan is any example. Literacy in Afghanistan. http://www.indexmundi.com/afghanistan/literacy.html

 

[dismal]

AFUCKINGstrawMAN, actually.

Is it possible for people here not to engage this fallacy that anything said about *some* Muslims is said about *all* Muslims?

Watch I'm going to say some things about *some* muslims now:

Some muslims believe in the imposition of sharia law.
Some muslims believe the penalty for apostasy should be death.
Some muslims believe the penalty for adultery should be stoning.
Some muslims believe alcohol should be banned.
Some muslims believe homosexuality is immoral.
Some muslims believe a woman should be obedient to her husband.
Some muslims believe evolution is a crock.

I do not intend to say these things apply to *all* muslims, nor do I believe these things apply to *all* muslims.

But, based on *evidence* I do believe that there are hundreds of millions of muslims that believe these things.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Wow. We should use those percentages as indicators of how uneducated these people are then if Afghanistan is any example. Literacy in Afghanistan. http://www.indexmundi.com/afghanistan/literacy.html

Illiteracy rates in Afghanistan may have something to do with the fact *some* muslims kill and disfigure people who want to go to school.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Let's cut to the chase

So you don't want them to condemn terrorism. You want them to stop being Muslim?

The two are not mutually exclusive. It's easy to condemn something while being in denial that you are part of it. The tweets behind that link show quite a few condemnation like "those were not real muslims" or "muslims cannot be terrorists"... in other words, sticking their head in the sand and pretending there is no problem, because it's not them doing it, but someone else. Of course the easy thing to do is to deconvert, but barring that they should direct their rage against their own communities instead of just posing for outsiders. Are the goingto demand their imams to tone down their sermons? Are they going to be more vigilant in watching their relatives and neighbours so they don't get suckered by the radicals? Or what? Just being outraged and doing nothing else is pretty meaningless.

Similar thoughts can be seen in other religions and ideologies. Bad things your tribe does is always explained away somehow.

Yup. Polls in Muslim nations tend to show a great denial that terrorist acts are being committed by Muslims.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...sis_baghdadi_caliphate_s_actions_against.html

More than 120 Muslim leaders and scholars have co-signed an open letter to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS, arguing the Islamic State caliphate's establishment and practices are not legitimate in Islam. The letter includes a technical point-by-point criticism of ISIS' actions and ideology based on the Quran and classical religious texts.

I sent a similar link to a conservative christian friend of mine. Her response was "haha who are they trying to fool." Are there any Christians out there who will join forces with these Muslim leaders, on just ONE point: lets not kill each other?

Unfortunately, all too many Muslims support the terrorism. That's much more important than finding some who oppose it.

 

[Warpoet]

AFUCKINGstrawMAN, actually.

Incorrect. Jayjay was clearly insinuating that Muslims writ large are responsible when a handful of their coreligionists start shooting people. That is what's known as "collective blame."

Try reading what you are responding to before posting.

Is it possible for people here not to engage this fallacy that anything said about *some* Muslims is said about *all* Muslims?

See above.

Watch I'm going to say some things about *some* muslims now:

Some muslims believe in the imposition of sharia law.
Some muslims believe the penalty for apostasy should be death.
Some muslims believe the penalty for adultery should be stoning.
Some muslims believe alcohol should be banned.
Some muslims believe homosexuality is immoral.
Some muslims believe a woman should be obedient to her husband.
Some muslims believe evolution is a crock.

I do not intend to say these things apply to *all* muslims, nor do I believe these things apply to *all* muslims.

But, based on *evidence* I do believe that there are hundreds of millions of muslims that believe these things.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Yes, because this is all so very relevant to the question of whether or not shooting up newspaper offices is OK, or whether the entirety of the world's Muslim population bears responsibility for it.

That large numbers of Muslims, a gigantic percentage of whom live in backwards and/or authoritarian countries, have similarly backwards thinking about social issues is not some revelation. We can go dig up some polling and see what African Christians and Indian Hindus think about women's rights or how gays ought to be treated; this does not inform us about whether people think mass murder is justified, far less support the asinine suggestion that the entire religion ought to be held accountable when it occurs.

 

[Jayjay]

How about preventing or stopping future terrorist attacks?

Like I said, the easy solution is for muslism to just resign from their dumbass religion. If they don't want to do that, then it's up to them to figure out some other way to stop the terrorists. I am not part of their tribe, so I can only offer general advice.

And yet you're perfectly comfortable blaming all 1.5 billion of them for what a few have done.

And shit like this is all too common on a forum that's supposedly dedicated to "rational" thinking.

Blaming 1.5 billion people for something this specific is pretty meaningless. Twelve victims divided by 1.5 billion: That's like saying that they are each 0.0000008% murderers. Which is practically no blame at all. Plus as was pointed out most of them live in poor countries so far removed from the actual incident that they have even less to do with the whole thing.

No, I am blaming the ringleaders and the more immediate tribe of western muslim asshats who enable this type of behaviour. In an earlier post that you derided, I compared the majority of muslims to passangers and the noisy, outspoken ones as captains who steer the whole ship. I blame the captains for being enablers, and the hypocrites who "condemn" these attacks while doing nothing else posers who just want to polish their own religion and would rather sweep inconvenient aspects of it under the rug. Repeating a condemnation becomes a rote, just as repeating "je suis charlie" becomes a rote that means absolutely nothing.

 

[Warpoet]

Blaming 1.5 billion people for something this specific is pretty meaningless. Twelve victims divided by 1.5 billion: That's like saying that they are each 0.0000008% murderers. Which is practically no blame at all. Plus as was pointed out most of them live in poor countries so far removed from the actual incident that they have even less to do with the whole thing.

We're making progress.

No, I am blaming the ringleaders and the more immediate tribe of western muslim asshats who enable this type of behaviour.

What "tribe" would that be? Does this tribe have a website I can visit? Do they live on reservations? Own any casinos?

In an earlier post that you derided, I compared the majority of muslims to passangers and the noisy, outspoken ones as captains who steer the whole ship.

Yes, I derided your post because the comparison is ludicrous on its face. Islam is not a boat, nor is Islam in Europe, nor Islam in France. Ordinary Muslims lead their own individual lives the same way the rest of society does.

I blame the captains for being enablers, and the hypocrites who "condemn" these attacks while doing nothing else posers who just want to polish their own religion and would rather sweep inconvenient aspects of it under the rug. Repeating a condemnation becomes a rote, just as repeating "je suis charlie" becomes a rote that means absolutely nothing.

Or maybe rather than "polish their religion," they simply want people like you to stop placing demands and expectations on them due to the actions of others. Rational people understand that the blame for a crime rests on those who committed it, not everyone who happens to belong to the same community.

 

[Trausti]

If most Muslims were like this guy the world would be a better place: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2907941/Moroccan-born-mayor-Rotterdam-tells-fellow-Muslims-not-appreciate-freedoms-living-West-pack-bags-f-live-TV.html