In Florida, showing mental health struggles could get a child detained

[ZiprHead]

Zero tolerance rules are the stupidest idea in human history.

I hear what you're saying.

But there's a flip side. Required actions cuts down on people just kicking the can down the road. The kid could also have exhibited self destructive tendencies for awhile, then offed himself. Nobody would take responsibility for it, even when the signs were right there.

There just aren't any ideal solutions.
Tom

I agree. I can see upsides to this and downsides.

The biggest downside for me is the people with the power to commit these kids have very little to minimal psychological training.

 

[crazyfingers]

Speaking generally about the poor mental health system for kids, I have no idea what the solution is. What I have observed is that no one sees the complete picture and everyone has their own assumptions and agendas.

My wife and I adopted 3 kids out of state foster care back in 2004. All had emerging mental health issues when we got them. Worst off was my daughter who would ultimately be hospitalized 18 times for very dangerous behaviors including self harming and suicidal thoughts. She came to us at 3.5 years old and was eventually diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder that developed for abuse and neglect with her bio-mom and then foster care.

The public schools did more harm than good. Despite IEP and other meetings when we brought in therapists and social workers to explain what she needed the schools just poo-poo'd it either because they didn't see the same behaviors at school what we saw a home or they just didn't want to develop an appropriate IEP on the mental health side. ( What school staff worth their pay don't know that no kid, even neurotypical ones don't behave exactly the same at home as in school?) The schools practiced splitting. They would blame us for not letting her play unsupervised with her younger brothers but how could we possibly let her play unsupervised with her younger brothers when she had a history of trying to hurt them? As parents we risked having a 51A claim of abuse or neglect if we did not let her play unsupervised with her brothers or, alternatively a 51A for allowing her to hurt her brothers? How do traumatized parents deal with that?

The department of mental health is organized geographically instead of by need. That meaning that she could only access mental health resources in our local geography regardless of whether they were appropriate services for her needs. It's like treating a broken arm with shot of amoxicillin. A broken system.

18 times she needed psychiatric hospitalization because she was a danger to herself or others in the family, especially her two younger brothers. Every one of those started as a several day stay in the ER waiting for a psychiatric bed to open up and the bed she went to had no correlation to the expertise at any of those places. These hospitalizations ended up as simply cooling off periods and nothing else. And when she was discharged, no mental health services that met her needs because it was all regionalized at DMH and because insurance companies illegally treat mental health with less care than physical.

We also had the choice of asking DCF (Department of children and families) for help. They have a lot more resources than DMH. But that would mean giving up custody and being charged with abandonment. We know families whose adopted kids were so damaged that they had to take that route. Give them up to DCF and get charged for abandonment.

We eventually sent our daughter to a residential school that specialized in Reactive Attachment Disorder. Those 6 months did more good than anything else we tried. We spent $65,000 out of our own pocket. Fortunately the public school was so negligent that we ultimately were reimbursed. But we had to take them to court.

I have no answers. I do know that the system is fucked up.

As to Florida, all I can say is that I have zero trust that Heir DeSantis won't politicize and direct this new program to punish innocent people when he sees a political advantage.

 

[Toni]

Speaking generally about the poor mental health system for kids, I have no idea what the solution is. What I have observed is that no one sees the complete picture and everyone has their own assumptions and agendas.

My wife and I adopted 3 kids out of state foster care back in 2004. All had emerging mental health issues when we got them. Worst off was my daughter who would ultimately be hospitalized 18 times for very dangerous behaviors including self harming and suicidal thoughts. She came to us at 3.5 years old and was eventually diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder that developed for abuse and neglect with her bio-mom and then foster care.

The public schools did more harm than good. Despite IEP and other meetings when we brought in therapists and social workers to explain what she needed the schools just poo-poo'd it either because they didn't see the same behaviors at school what we saw a home or they just didn't want to develop an appropriate IEP on the mental health side. ( What school staff worth their pay don't know that no kid, even neurotypical ones don't behave exactly the same at home as in school?) The schools practiced splitting. They would blame us for not letting her play unsupervised with her younger brothers but how could we possibly let her play unsupervised with her younger brothers when she had a history of trying to hurt them? As parents we risked having a 51A claim of abuse or neglect if we did not let her play unsupervised with her brothers or, alternatively a 51A for allowing her to hurt her brothers? How do traumatized parents deal with that?

The department of mental health is organized geographically instead of by need. That meaning that she could only access mental health resources in our local geography regardless of whether they were appropriate services for her needs. It's like treating a broken arm with shot of amoxicillin. A broken system.

18 times she needed psychiatric hospitalization because she was a danger to herself or others in the family, especially her two younger brothers. Every one of those started as a several day stay in the ER waiting for a psychiatric bed to open up and the bed she went to had no correlation to the expertise at any of those places. These hospitalizations ended up as simply cooling off periods and nothing else. And when she was discharged, no mental health services that met her needs because it was all regionalized at DMH and because insurance companies illegally treat mental health with less care than physical.

We also had the choice of asking DCF (Department of children and families) for help. They have a lot more resources than DMH. But that would mean giving up custody and being charged with abandonment. We know families whose adopted kids were so damaged that they had to take that route. Give them up to DCF and get charged for abandonment.

We eventually sent our daughter to a residential school that specialized in Reactive Attachment Disorder. Those 6 months did more good than anything else we tried. We spent $65,000 out of our own pocket. Fortunately the public school was so negligent that we ultimately were reimbursed. But we had to take them to court.

I have no answers. I do know that the system is fucked up.

As to Florida, all I can say is that I have zero trust that Heir DeSantis won't politicize and direct this new program to punish innocent people when he sees a political advantage.

I remember a lot of what you wrote about your struggles to get your children, especially your daughter, the care that was desperately needed and the fight with the school system to obtain it--even the battle to get reimbursed for care that your daughter should have received years earlier. Your kids are very fortunate to have you and your wife as parents.

I don't know if all states have their mental health care organized by region, with different regions having different specialties or levels of expertise. I do know that in my state, or at least my mostly rural corner of my state, it is exceedingly difficult to get mental health care for minors. We (my family) are fortunate that the need for anti-depressant medication was more easily obtained for adolescents when my kids were adolescents compared with today. Still difficult to obtain and still impossible to insist that an 18 year old stay on their meds. But it was possible then, at least to get needed antidepressants for adolescents. It is very difficult to get access to any kind of therapy and it's very much needed in my town, and I suspect, every town and city and rural area.

 

[Jarhyn]

Zero tolerance rules are the stupidest idea in human history.

I hear what you're saying.

But there's a flip side. Required actions cuts down on people just kicking the can down the road. The kid could also have exhibited self destructive tendencies for awhile, then offed himself. Nobody would take responsibility for it, even when the signs were right there.

There just aren't any ideal solutions.
Tom

What do you say when the child does have suicidal and destructive tendencies because they never wanted to grow up a girl and now breasts are sprouting on their chest and their crotch is bleeding and people are expecting them to want a family, and some part of them suddenly started whining for that but THEY hate every second of it...

What if they start cutting on themselves because they hate their body and how it is, in their mind, deforming away from the broad shoulders and the square chest...

I'm pretty sure the action "required" in Florida is not going to be "let them have puberty blockers" and "let them access testosterone".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Zero tolerance rules are the stupidest idea in human history.

I hear what you're saying.

But there's a flip side. Required actions cuts down on people just kicking the can down the road. The kid could also have exhibited self destructive tendencies for awhile, then offed himself. Nobody would take responsibility for it, even when the signs were right there.

There just aren't any ideal solutions.
Tom

I agree. I can see upsides to this and downsides.

The biggest downside for me is the people with the power to commit these kids have very little to minimal psychological training.

The intent is to hold them just long enough for somebody with the psychological training to see if there's a real issue or not.

The system doesn't work too well, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And when she was discharged, no mental health services that met her needs because it was all regionalized at DMH and because insurance companies illegally treat mental health with less care than physical.

What I've seen is the government requires coverage but does nothing about mandating that insurance companies actually have enough providers, especially when you need something specific.

 

[ZiprHead]

Zero tolerance rules are the stupidest idea in human history.

I hear what you're saying.

But there's a flip side. Required actions cuts down on people just kicking the can down the road. The kid could also have exhibited self destructive tendencies for awhile, then offed himself. Nobody would take responsibility for it, even when the signs were right there.

There just aren't any ideal solutions.
Tom

I agree. I can see upsides to this and downsides.

The biggest downside for me is the people with the power to commit these kids have very little to minimal psychological training.

The intent is to hold them just long enough for somebody with the psychological training to see if there's a real issue or not.

The system doesn't work too well, though.

And could very much cause more problems. This is something that should be used in only the most extreme cases after review by a professional.

 

[bilby]

Zero tolerance rules are the stupidest idea in human history.

I hear what you're saying.

But there's a flip side.

If you think there's a flip side to what I said, then you didn't hear what I was saying.

If (as I suspect) you're saying that there's a flip side to some other aspect of the particular situation under discussion prior to my post, then that's nice, but not a response to what I posted.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

*snip*

 

[Toni]

And when she was discharged, no mental health services that met her needs because it was all regionalized at DMH and because insurance companies illegally treat mental health with less care than physical.

What I've seen is the government requires coverage but does nothing about mandating that insurance companies actually have enough providers, especially when you need something specific.

What I see ( living out state more than 100 miles from the large cities in my state: health care options are more varied in major population areas. Out state and especially rural areas have very insufficient numbers of providers, even for basic care.