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In order for women to rise, men must fall.

Jolly_Penguin said:
RavenSky said:
Loren_Petchel said:
Exactly--I'm looking at it from the employer's viewpoint, not the social debate about who should care for the children.
Which means exactly nothing, unless you are suggesting that employers dictate whether it is the father or the mother who do most of the child care
I don't understand you here. He is focussed on the question of what should be required of employers. The question of why and how she became family primary caregiver and he the office workaholic, or vice versa, is none of the employer'e business. Is that what you are saying?
No, at the point he made the comment I replied to, he wasn't focused on "what should be required of employers." He was focused on blaming women for their "choices" - as is further evidenced by his most recent inane comment about single mothers.

Did you misquote then? You meant to quote some text he posted earlier or elsewhere?

RavenSky said:
"The question of why and how she became family primary caregiver and he the office workaholic, or vice versa" is the employers' (and society's) business because employers play such a large part in forcing those "choices" onto women and their spouses and children.

What should be required of employers is a gender neutral environment that will actually allow those choices to truly be between the parents of the children regardless of the gender of the parents.

I agree here. What should be required of employers is to treat employees and applicants fairly and equally and without regard to gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. It is not the employer's responsibility to interfere in personal relationships of employees.
 
I don't understand you here. He is focussed on the question of what should be required of employers. The question of why and how she became family primary caregiver and he the office workaholic, or vice versa, is none of the employer'e business. Is that what you are saying?

It is and it isn't.

It is the choice of the parents if or whether either becomes the primary caregiver of the child. Childcare choices might affect the employer--or might not, depending on choices available to the parents and how they are utilized. I have co-workers with young children, both parents working full time, and no childcare needed because parents have deliberately chosen to work different shifts to avoid daycare costs, or because there is extended family who are willing and able to provide care as needed, including completely covering the parents' work shifts. Most people don't have those options, however.

The policies of the employer do affect to some degree, and may entirely be the primary reason that either parent becomes a primary caregiver. Unpaid parental leave has the effect of almost always shortening the time a parent spends with a newborn child--and recovering from the physical effects of pregnancy and childbirth and sometimes, how a parent deals with the medical needs of a child who was born prematurely or has other serious medical needs.

In almost every case I am aware of, the lesser paid parent is the parent more likely to take more time off, switch to part time hours or to leave the workforce altogether if costs for caring for the child (monetary and otherwise) are not met or exceeded by employers' policies. Why stay at a job when it costs you more to work than not to work?

Paid parental leave allows the mother to better physically recovery, better establish breast feeding, which is a serious benefit to the infant, and for either/both parents to help establish a wake/sleep/eat routine that works for child and parents who are working. This results in parents/workers who are less stressed or distracted, better rested and generally more productive at work. It also fosters a strong sense of loyalty to the employer. This generally translates into an employee who is more dedicated and more loyal--the employer is less likely to need to replace the employee and can avoid all of the costs associated with hiring and training a replacement. In my workplace, those costs can be considerable.

My employer is moderately generous for a US employer in terms of paid parental leave. It's inadequate but better than average for the US. The shortcomings of parental leave have translated into parents returning to work very soon after childbirth when a child has a serious medical issue that is keeping the child hospitalized, and in one case, very soon after the death of a newborn, while this child's twin was hospitalized for some weeks. When children were hospitalized, parents split their leave and took some after their child came home from the hospital. While the ability to split leave is a good thing, the fact that US parental leave norms gave parents little choice but to return to work very soon after giving birth to a child who had serious medical needs is pretty harsh and hardly in anyone's best interests. I could be wrong but I don't think that this happens in Europe. Or maybe not Canada, either.

There has been discussion of the employer bearing an undue burden by accommodating paid parental leave, which many posters here seem to think is very expensive and cuts into an employer's profit margin. However, all HR costs: medical and other insurances, PTO, medical and parental leave, etc. costs figure into the cost of doing business in general and also reduce the overall tax burden to the employer.

An employer's benefits package affects that employer's ability to attract and retain employees. While my employer's policies are generous for my region, they are only moderately so compared with many employers in the US. The US lags seriously behind most employers in Europe, I believe, in terms of benefits, hours, etc.

I'm long past the need for parental leave or maternity benefits. None of this will affect me personally. I still think it is right and fair and better for employee, for employer, for society as a whole and especially for the child or family member with serious medical needs--for generous leaves to be allowed and for an employee taking such leaves to not be penalized in terms of job status or security in response to such leaves.

Society--including employee, children, and employer--all benefit from having employees who are healthy, well rested, and not stressed to the breaking point. People are happier and are less likely to need expensive social services provided for them if the stressful root cause is avoided altogether.

Toni, thank you for the long and thoughtful post not laced with personal attacks.

Are you saying that you attribute more women becoming primary family caregivers instead of full time fully focussed employee's on employers not offering extensive parental leave pay? That may be a factor in the decision. I don't know to what extent, but I strongly suggest that you watch the video Truasti posted, as it speaks directly to this and has some good insights on this nature vs nurture debate. The answer of course, as often the case in such questions of nature vs nurture, is both play a role.

I also hear you on your argument that extensive benefits packages from employers can benefit employers, paying dividends in more dedicated and unstressed employees, etc. But I have to point out that nobody here is saying that employers should not be allowed to offer such packages. The question here is should they be FORCED to through government law and force. That includes the current health care system you have set up in the USA, where employers are expected to pay health benefits for employees going far beyond any health risk caused by the employment.

I maintain the position that this creates an uneven ad unfair burden on employers, while the idle rich, companies with few employees, and the general public don't pay a fair share for the societal benefit that comes of this. You can say that this gets passed on from the employers as price hikes, but that is only true of employers who can absorb it (and not go out of business) and who will agree to absorb it (rather than automating, shifting overseas, etc). It is fundamentally unfair and unjust. Do you really disagree?

I do agree with you that though it is unjust it is more just than letting people die in the street. Just as forcing child support payments on a non-father, or on a random passerby, or random name picked out of the telephone directory, is unjust but better than letting a child die. But two wrongs don't make a right. How is it any more just to make employers or not-fathers pay than to make you yourself as an individual pay? Would it not be wrong to arbitrarily decide that Toni will pay for it all out of her pay? Would you really be ok with such a thing, just because it is better than people dying?

And you have argued that the United States simply isn't ready and simply doesn't have the political will to do the right thing. But it will only have that political will when you demand it and make it happen, as we have here, and as others have in other countries around the planet. Saying that you oppose true single payer universal health care as a right because [insert excuse here] as you did above, is a statement that you oppose single payer universal health care, no matter what the inserted excuse is.

So stop making such excuses, and make this happen in your country. You can do it. You can do it there. You can do it far more quickly than you realize. The USA does not have to remain a backwards nation. Pick up the metric system while you are at it. :)
 
Are white men lucky to have Clementine Ford or what?

But what does equality really look like, and how can male allies work towards it? Such a thing is possible, but unfortunately the methods prove extremely unpopular when laid out bare for everyone to see. The truth is that equality - real, substantial, tangible acts of equality and not just the kind of lip service we normally see directed towards it - involves loss. It involves loss of power, privilege and positions. The dominant group has to sacrifice the privilege and power they have in order to meet a level playing field. There is no other way around it.

A good example of this can be found in Canadian government. Not only has Prime Minister Justin Trudeau followed through on his commitment to establish a gender equal Cabinet, but it appears his move is being emulated in individual legislatures around the country. Last week, Ontario representative Ted McMeekin announced he would be stepping down from his position as Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing so he could help achieve "gender parity in [Premier Kathleen Wynne's] next Cabinet." He followed up in a Facebook post, writing, "Like our Prime Minister, I've never been afraid to call myself a feminist. In fact, I've always been proud of being an honourary member of the Women's Caucus, and working for equality. But sometimes the best way for a man to advance the equality of women may be to step back and make room at the table."

Such a move will invariably be howled down as 'misandrist' by those determined to misunderstand what the reality of gender equality looks like. After all, how can it really be equality if men are forced to lose something? That sounds like discrimination!

But how else is it going to work? Talking about equality in government won't make it magically appear, especially not if the majority of leadership positions continue to not only be held by men but be fiercely defended by them. When 70% of visible positions in society (the lawmakers, the media creators, the voices and the faces of authority) are still held by men, no amount of claims to believing in equality can change the fact that it just doesn't exist. Gender parity under that structure inevitably means that 20% of those positions will need to transfer from men to women - that means that 20% of men currently holding positions of leadership will have to let go of them. That's the reality.

Commitment to real gender equality therefore becomes less a measure of how willing men are to call themselves feminists and more about how willing they are to actually leave their position at the table and transfer it to a woman. And I don't just mean white men letting go so that white women can take their place. I mean a radical restructure of power so that diversity, not homogeneity, is reflected. This means white people losing power so that people of colour can have their equal share, heterosexual voices staying quiet to listen to LGBTQI representatives, able bodied people being denied the right to determine the futures of people with disabilities.

Equality isn't a word that can just be waved around like a talisman against accusations. It has to actually mean something. And right now, in 2016, part of that definition needs to be recognising the necessary loss of power for the people who've always had it and who cannot conceive of what it might look like to start letting that go.

I'm not going to dissect every line of this; I've got a simple question. Are there any men on this board who would step down from their positions solely to allow somebody with a vagina to take his place, in the name of equality?

1) Positions of power in the government is completely different from positions of power in the private sector. It's pretty obvious that the government should roughly mirror in composition to the voters. Simply because we tend to be blind to issues of groups that we don't ourselves belong to or blind to problems if we don't share the same problems.

2) But the rest is bullshit. Women today make less money than men because they rather pick jobs with flexible hours. This is because they prioritize being able to be available for their kids. Career women who don't give a fuck about kids make the same as men today. If we chose to look, only at salary differences, then this explains the entire divide.

So how to solve this? Do we want to solve it? Perhaps women prioritize their kids for biological reasons. Perhaps they're socially pressured to it. I suspect it's a little of both. As usual. In Sweden we have heavily subsidized day-care, that is so cheap that anybody can have their kids in day-care. So women don't need to prioritize their kids for social reasons. Sweden has also the most gender equal salaries between genders. So it's obviously working. That's a solution. Works for Sweden. I suspect it'll work for everybody else as well.

But the rest. Bullshit. I don't think gimping men will solve fucking anything.
 
Exactly--I'm looking at it from the employer's viewpoint, not the social debate about who should care for the children.

Which means exactly nothing, unless you are suggesting that employers dictate whether it is the father or the mother who do most of the child care

It's relevant to what the employer should pay them.

The childcare decisions mean the woman works less--a rational employer will pay a lower salary for a worker who isn't there as much. Gender isn't a factor in their decision.
 
Which means exactly nothing, unless you are suggesting that employers dictate whether it is the father or the mother who do most of the child care

It's relevant to what the employer should pay them.

The childcare decisions mean the woman works less--a rational employer will pay a lower salary for a worker who isn't there as much. Gender isn't a factor in their decision.
Why does it mean the woman works less? It is the very fact that you (& employers) assume this that results in women being paid less.

In case you were unaware, fathers can handle child care just as well as mothers.

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Paid parental leave allows the mother to better physically recovery, better establish breast feeding, which is a serious benefit to the infant, and for either/both parents to help establish a wake/sleep/eat routine that works for child and parents who are working. This results in parents/workers who are less stressed or distracted, better rested and generally more productive at work. It also fosters a strong sense of loyalty to the employer. This generally translates into an employee who is more dedicated and more loyal--the employer is less likely to need to replace the employee and can avoid all of the costs associated with hiring and training a replacement. In my workplace, those costs can be considerable.

But on the flip side it means that workers who aren't going to become parents find the situation less desirable because of what the employer is spending on a benefit that is of no benefit to them. Why should the childfree and those who have completed their families subsidize the breeders? (And a subsidy is what you're asking for.)

There has been discussion of the employer bearing an undue burden by accommodating paid parental leave, which many posters here seem to think is very expensive and cuts into an employer's profit margin. However, all HR costs: medical and other insurances, PTO, medical and parental leave, etc. costs figure into the cost of doing business in general and also reduce the overall tax burden to the employer.

1) The size of the bite isn't really that important. It's there.

2) It really screws an employer who has only one person doing <x>. I think they should change the FMLA--the size of the employer shouldn't matter, the number of workers the employer has that can fill in the position is what's important. If you have 10 people doing <x> then it's not that big a deal. If you're a 500-person employer with one person doing <x> it's going to hurt. This is especially true if <x> is something with a long get-up-to-speed requirement.
 
Most liberals, I'm sure (well me at least), would prefer the State to run a national paid parental leave program funded through taxes. But right now there is no chance in hell of getting that through the Republican obstructionists. So . . . gotta take what we can where we can.

Republicans will fight just as hard at business being required to do it.

Too bad. Either government pays for it or employers pay for it. It's coming whether they like it or not.

Note, also, that not everyone will favor it. It's a net reduction in pay for those of us who aren't going to be having kids. People should bear the costs of their own choices--save up to have that kid, don't expect us to help fund it!

Sorry, that's not how society works. Besides those kids are going to be paying for your social security benefits. If anything it's you childless couples that end up leeching off of everyone else.

Oh, but don't take that as a recommendation for you to have kids.
 
Loren, the benefit of passing on your genes isnt enough. The benefit of having kids to care for you in your old age isn't enough either. Paying for schools isnt enough. You gotta step down and give them your job or at least we gotta pay them more than you. Only fair right? You are failing evolution. You gotta reward those who win it.
 
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