In Venezuela, we couldn’t stop Chávez. Don’t make the same mistakes we did.

[RavenSky]

This is probably the most depressing thing I've read since that vile cheeto was elected.

But politics is only one-half policy: The other, darker half is rhetoric. Sometimes the rhetoric takes over. Such has been our lot in Venezuela for the past two decades — and such is yours now, Americans. Because in one regard, Trump and Chávez are identical. They are both masters of populism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-same-mistakes-we-did/?utm_term=.9dc7ec6fd595

 

[Valjean]

Populists can be good or bad, depending on what populace they're appealing to.
Wasn't the Chavez administration both a boon to the impoverished masses and a thorn in the side of their oppressors?

 

[untermensche]

...Hugo Chávez was a socialist with communist dreams....

A total lie in the first sentence.

Comparing Chavez who tried to help the poor in their struggle against the rich of Venezuela to Trump, a silver spooner who never has known a day of real struggle in his life, who's policies favor only the rich, is a dog shit comparison.

 

[Axulus]

...Hugo Chávez was a socialist with communist dreams....

A total lie in the first sentence.

Comparing Chavez who tried to help the poor in their struggle against the rich of Venezuela to Trump, a silver spooner who never has known a day of real struggle in his life, who's policies favor only the rich, is a dog shit comparison.

You are a sucker for the Chavez variety of populism. He was able to articulate cartoonish views of "oppressors" and "the oppressed", and did so brillantly, allowing him and his cronies to loot the country of billions and throw a few scraps to the poor in the process that only left the country in ruins. Scraps which really didn't do much, as neighboring Brazil and Colombia reduced poverty even faster than did Venezuela.

Venezuela is now the murder capital of the world, with widespread starvation and people dying en masse from easily treatable conditions due to lack of basic medical supplies.

On the flip side, Trump's cartoonish picture of the media, of immigrants, of the economy and trade, and claiming to feel the pain of the white working class is leading us down a path of a more powerful executive, weakened democratic institutions and entrenched corruption, just like what happened under Chavez and his successor Maduro. The full focus needs to be to get him voted out at the next election and his support eroded at the mid-terms.

 

[untermensche]

A total lie in the first sentence.

Comparing Chavez who tried to help the poor in their struggle against the rich of Venezuela to Trump, a silver spooner who never has known a day of real struggle in his life, who's policies favor only the rich, is a dog shit comparison.

You are a sucker for the Chavez variety of populism. He was able to articulate cartoonish views of "oppressors" and "the oppressed", and did so brillantly, allowing him and his cronies to loot the country of billions and throw a few scraps to the poor in the process that only left the country in ruins. Scraps which really didn't do much, as neighboring Brazil and Colombia reduced poverty even faster than did Venezuela.

Venezuela is now the murder capital of the world, with widespread starvation and people dying en masse from easily treatable conditions due to lack of basic medical supplies.

Venezuela was a completely different country when Chavez was alive.

Saying he has any responsibility for the crimes of the people that replaced him is insane.

You can't poke his dead corpse and make it dance for you.

Your whole reasoning is absurd.

 

[Axulus]

Populists can be good or bad, depending on what populace they're appealing to.
Wasn't the Chavez administration both a boon to the impoverished masses and a thorn in the side of their oppressors?

He essentially bribed their loyalty by handing out a lot of goodies from the high price of oil while ruining the future of the country. He gutted the goose that laid the golden egg (the national oil company) by getting rid of anyone who wasn't loyal to him, which lead the company under-investing and falling into ill repair and disarray, and turned the economy into a casino relying on a high price of oil to prevent a severe crash and widespread misery. All the while he and his cronies skimmed billions off the top of a corrupt money exchange scheme, over inflated government contracts, purged anyone working in the government who did not give their undivided loyalty to him and his party, consolidated all power in the executive (turning the the country into a dictatorship), etc.

Meanwhile, neighboring Colombia and Brazil, which also have their own widespread poverty problems, implemented moderate and sensible policies to grow the economy sustainable for the future, reducing poverty and helping the poor at similar rates of progress as Venezuela while building a solid base for future improvement and not relying exclusively on a casino mentality that will result in everything being lost once the price of oil drops substantially.

 

[Axulus]

You are a sucker for the Chavez variety of populism. He was able to articulate cartoonish views of "oppressors" and "the oppressed", and did so brillantly, allowing him and his cronies to loot the country of billions and throw a few scraps to the poor in the process that only left the country in ruins. Scraps which really didn't do much, as neighboring Brazil and Colombia reduced poverty even faster than did Venezuela.

Venezuela is now the murder capital of the world, with widespread starvation and people dying en masse from easily treatable conditions due to lack of basic medical supplies.

Venezuela was a completely different country when Chavez was alive.

Saying he has any responsibility for the crimes of the people that replaced him is insane.

You can't poke his dead corpse and make it dance for you.

Your whole reasoning is absurd.

He built the system that resulted in this widespread corruption and looting and turning the economy into a casino relying solely on the price of oil as well as the destruction of democratic institutions and consolidation of power in the executive (FFS, the opposition won 63-66% of the seats in congress and have zero power). He was lucky to die before the shit hit the fan. He is responsible.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, defending Chavez and attacking Trump is just weird. There both the same guy who took advantage of whatever opportunity was available to them at the moment in order to get to the same place.

The author makes a very good point. The Dems need to stop playing Trump's game and chasing around after whatever the daily scandal is like its the end of the world again and just go to all of these communities of Trump supporters and just talk to them and find out what they want and how they can help. Then, instead of spending twenty minutes focusing on Trump's lies from that day, brush them off in a couple of sentences and then spend those twenty minutes talking about how they can help them.

 

[untermensche]

Venezuela was a completely different country when Chavez was alive.

Saying he has any responsibility for the crimes of the people that replaced him is insane.

You can't poke his dead corpse and make it dance for you.

Your whole reasoning is absurd.

He built the system that resulted in this widespread corruption and looting and turning the economy into a casino relying solely on the price of oil as well as the destruction of democratic institutions and consolidation of power in the executive (FFS, the opposition won 63-66% of the seats in congress and have zero power). He was lucky to die before the shit hit the fan. He is responsible.

Any human system can be corrupted.

What dreamworld are you living in?

 

[abaddon]

Trump’s scandals are a side-tracking strategy so they can't be the main thing people focus on, or the trick works.

But Dems need to do more than empathize with the disgruntled persons that voted for Trump. They need to be a populist movement in distinct contrast to the Republicans. And they will need to reject the corporatists within their own ranks.

And drop the focus on minorities. It needs to be a real populist movement, so no more separating out the 'special-needs' people as the most important people.

But they can’t stop pointing out Trump's lies and fucked-up actions either. There’s no uniting and everyone “getting behind the president” that isn’t complicity.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

He essentially bribed their loyalty by handing out a lot of goodies from the high price of oil while ruining the future of the country. He gutted the goose that laid the golden egg (the national oil company) by getting rid of anyone who wasn't loyal to him, which lead the company under-investing and falling into ill repair and disarray, and turned the economy into a casino relying on a high price of oil to prevent a severe crash and widespread misery. All the while he and his cronies skimmed billions off the top of a corrupt money exchange scheme, over inflated government contracts, purged anyone working in the government who did not give their undivided loyalty to him and his party, consolidated all power in the executive (turning the the country into a dictatorship), etc.

Specifics aside this sounds like Trumpty Dumpty's game plan.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Venezuela was a completely different country when Chavez was alive.

Saying he has any responsibility for the crimes of the people that replaced him is insane.

You can't poke his dead corpse and make it dance for you.

Your whole reasoning is absurd.

Venezuela didn't change. It just ran farther downhill.

 

[untermensche]

Venezuela was a completely different country when Chavez was alive.

Saying he has any responsibility for the crimes of the people that replaced him is insane.

You can't poke his dead corpse and make it dance for you.

Your whole reasoning is absurd.

Venezuela didn't change. It just ran farther downhill.

You keep saying that.

Yet you have no evidence to support it.

You are full of it and don't have a clue.

 

[whichphilosophy]

This is probably the most depressing thing I've read since that vile cheeto was elected.

But politics is only one-half policy: The other, darker half is rhetoric. Sometimes the rhetoric takes over. Such has been our lot in Venezuela for the past two decades — and such is yours now, Americans. Because in one regard, Trump and Chávez are identical. They are both masters of populism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-same-mistakes-we-did/?utm_term=.9dc7ec6fd595

Are you still taking the Washington rag seriously?
He provided universal free healthcare. However after his death this collapsed under the new administration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela

After the Bolivarian Revolution, extensive inoculation programs and the availability of low- or no-cost health care provided by the Venezuelan Institute of Social Security made Venezuela's health care infrastructure one of the more advanced in Latin America. However, by 2015, the Venezuelan health care system had collapsed.

Chavez did some good things. I will take this out of WIKI including free healthcare, free eye care to hundreds of thousands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Chávez_government

During the past decade under Chavez, the income poverty rate in Venezuela dropped by more than half, from 54% of households below poverty level in the first half of 2003, down to 26% at the end of 2008. "Extreme poverty" fell even more - by 72%. Further, "these poverty rates measure only cash income, and doesn't take into account increased access to health care or education."[21][134]
Datos reports real income grew by 137% between 2003 and Q1 2006.Official poverty figures dropped by 10%.[136] However, the World Bank estimates that 31.9% are below the poverty line.
Some social scientists and economists claim that the government's reported income poverty figures did not fall in proportion to the country's vast petroleum revenues in the last two years, much of which was directed to social spending to decrease the cost of living.

Venezuela's infant mortality rate fell by 18.2% between 1998 and 2006.

- - - Updated - - -

Venezuela was a completely different country when Chavez was alive.

Saying he has any responsibility for the crimes of the people that replaced him is insane.

You can't poke his dead corpse and make it dance for you.

Your whole reasoning is absurd.

Venezuela didn't change. It just ran farther downhill.

No.

 

[funinspace]

This is probably the most depressing thing I've read since that vile cheeto was elected.

But politics is only one-half policy: The other, darker half is rhetoric. Sometimes the rhetoric takes over. Such has been our lot in Venezuela for the past two decades — and such is yours now, Americans. Because in one regard, Trump and Chávez are identical. They are both masters of populism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-same-mistakes-we-did/?utm_term=.9dc7ec6fd595

First, I'm not suggesting that the next 207 weeks will be fun, but the US can easily survive Don the Con. Our democracy is far stronger and far more stable than anything Venezuela ever had. And besides, there are no 800lb gorillas around strong enough to seriously mess with us...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ya, defending Chavez and attacking Trump is just weird. There both the same guy who took advantage of whatever opportunity was available to them at the moment in order to get to the same place.

The author makes a very good point. The Dems need to stop playing Trump's game and chasing around after whatever the daily scandal is like its the end of the world again and just go to all of these communities of Trump supporters and just talk to them and find out what they want and how they can help. Then, instead of spending twenty minutes focusing on Trump's lies from that day, brush them off in a couple of sentences and then spend those twenty minutes talking about how they can help them.

Nice idea, except he lies about everything, including how successful the ban went into effect. You can't attack Trump, except in Court.

And the real people with power, the Pussy Whipped Republicans are acting meek, afraid of being challenged by a Tea Bagger. This is how dictatorships come into effect. A person who hold the views of a small minority, scares the people in power into submission.

- - - Updated - - -

This is probably the most depressing thing I've read since that vile cheeto was elected.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-same-mistakes-we-did/?utm_term=.9dc7ec6fd595

First, I'm not suggesting that the next 207 weeks will be fun, but the US can easily survive Don the Con. Our democracy is far stronger and far more stable than anything Venezuela ever had. And besides, there are no 800lb gorillas around strong enough to seriously mess with us...

It is stronger, but when the DNI and head of the military Chiefs are dismissed from the Principle meeting group and Steve Bannon is added, there is a very bad thing going on.

 

[funinspace]

This is probably the most depressing thing I've read since that vile cheeto was elected.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-same-mistakes-we-did/?utm_term=.9dc7ec6fd595

First, I'm not suggesting that the next 207 weeks will be fun, but the US can easily survive Don the Con. Our democracy is far stronger and far more stable than anything Venezuela ever had. And besides, there are no 800lb gorillas around strong enough to seriously mess with us...

It is stronger, but when the DNI and head of the military Chiefs are dismissed from the Principle meeting group and Steve Bannon is added, there is a very bad thing going on.

Meh...I think only time will tell. The NSC's principals committee has a whole gaggle of people. I doubt the de-listing of the 2 above as 'regular' attendees will mean very much. SecDef Mattis would still be there. And I don't think that missing former U.S. Senator Dan Coats (DNI head) will add up to anything. And Bannon would have Don the Con's ear either way... This is just more noise keeping everyone distracted...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is probably the most depressing thing I've read since that vile cheeto was elected.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-same-mistakes-we-did/?utm_term=.9dc7ec6fd595

First, I'm not suggesting that the next 207 weeks will be fun, but the US can easily survive Don the Con. Our democracy is far stronger and far more stable than anything Venezuela ever had. And besides, there are no 800lb gorillas around strong enough to seriously mess with us...

It is stronger, but when the DNI and head of the military Chiefs are dismissed from the Principle meeting group and Steve Bannon is added, there is a very bad thing going on.

Meh...I think only time will tell. The NSC's principals committee has a whole gaggle of people. I doubt the de-listing of the 2 above as 'regular' attendees will mean very much. SecDef Mattis would still be there. And I don't think that missing former U.S. Senator Dan Coats (DNI head) will add up to anything. And Bannon would have Don the Con's ear either way... This is just more noise keeping everyone distracted...

I disagree. This wasn't noise at all, this was done undercover. The Ban was the noise. Trump and Bannon are breaking with tradition, and they don't really have the experience to be breaking with tradition.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Venezuela, where you can't even find antibiotics anymore:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/venezuela-health-crisis-means-kid-s-scraped-knee-can-be-n659211

 

[whichphilosophy]

Venezuela, where you can't even find antibiotics anymore:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/venezuela-health-crisis-means-kid-s-scraped-knee-can-be-n659211

Under Chavez you could but now it's more difficult.