Infinite Past

[bilby]

The more you say the less believable I find it.

Sure. All the past and the future exist frozen.

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

From a monist perspective, consciousness in no more "like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure" than is any other phenomenon. What I am conscious of at any given point in time is singular and unique, and doesn't change or move in any of the four dimensions of 'block time'.

 

[untermensche]

It is modeled.

You merely make my point.

You want to say a man-made model is the same thing as the sun.

It is as irrational as trying to apply the imaginary concept of infinity to anything real.

Yeah, you've got me; I think a man made model is the same thing as the sun.

Your assertion that infinity is an irrational concept doesn't make it so, never has, never will. Your failure to understand something is not evidence that that thing is impossible. Despite the plentiful evidence that it is impossible for you to understand this.

You said we could apply an imaginary number to the sun.

No we can't.

We might be able to use it in a model.

Thinking they are the same thing is the exact problem I am talking about.

A kind of mental blindness. Not knowing the difference between a model and the real thing.



This is what Freeman Dyson accused Stephen Hawking of doing. At 2:57:40.

This video is interesting. Dyson also talks about the brain and "wonder tissue" at about 1:56:00

- - - Updated - - -

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

From a monist perspective, consciousness in no more "like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure" than is any other phenomenon. What I am conscious of at any given point in time is singular and unique, and doesn't change or move in any of the four dimensions of 'block time'.

Ghosts huh?

That's a very interesting theory.

That makes absolutely no sense if you try to understand it.

 

[ryan]

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

From a monist perspective, consciousness in no more "like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure" than is any other phenomenon. What I am conscious of at any given point in time is singular and unique, and doesn't change or move in any of the four dimensions of 'block time'.

Why aren't we conscious of it all all at once? Why am I conscious for a particular system? Something is travelling through the structure. There is absolutely no reason why it can't be something that is not physical, but rather, just "shines a light" on the structure.

 

[ryan]

Ghosts huh?

But with more dimensions, the ghost can have free will to observe/take/live different paths. Nothing moves (except for observation), no changes, no interaction with mind and body required and free will is still on the table.

 

[untermensche]

The more you say the less believable I find it.

Sure. All the past and the future exist frozen.

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

Alright then.

So we imagine the universe is a block and a ghost is moving through it.

That is all it takes to say there is no movement. Except for the ghost of course.

Quite ridiculous.

- - - Updated - - -

Ghosts huh?

But with more dimensions, the ghost can have free will to observe/take/live different paths. Nothing moves (except for observation), no changes, no interaction with mind and body required and free will is still on the table.

Please.

When we start talking about ghosts somebody has to understand the conversation has left the tracks of sanity.

 

[ryan]

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

Alright then.

So we imagine the universe is a block and a ghost is moving through it.

That is all it takes to say there is no movement. Except for the ghost of course.

Yeah, when it comes to the consciousness/ghost, I obviously don't know. I don't know because relativity does not take into account the consciousness, but somehow the consciousness traverses through what relativity describes as a static universe.

When we start talking about ghosts somebody has to understand the conversation has left the tracks of sanity.

The ghost is actually a metaphor for the consciousness.

 

[bilby]

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

From a monist perspective, consciousness in no more "like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure" than is any other phenomenon. What I am conscious of at any given point in time is singular and unique, and doesn't change or move in any of the four dimensions of 'block time'.

Why aren't we conscious of it all all at once? Why am I conscious for a particular system? Something is travelling through the structure. There is absolutely no reason why it can't be something that is not physical, but rather, just "shines a light" on the structure.

You are not conscious of it all at once for the same reason that a moving car isn't on every part of the road at once. 'at once' implies a single point in the time dimension, and 'it all' implies every point in the time dimension (or at least, every point at which we are conscious). You can no more be conscious of all of the time of your existence simultaneously, than you can be in every location you will ever visit simultaneously.

Or, to put it another way, from the 'God's eye' perspective of block time, you can ONLY be conscious of it all at once - your conscious state at any point in time is a fixed part of the block.

 

[untermensche]

Yeah, when it comes to the consciousness/ghost, I obviously don't know. I don't know because relativity does not take into account the consciousness, but somehow the consciousness traverses through what relativity describes as a static universe.

We do know what to do with ideas that are complete fabrications and have no evidence to support them.

We are highly skeptical of them and therefore cannot rationally use them in an argument.

When we start talking about ghosts somebody has to understand the conversation has left the tracks of sanity.

The ghost is actually a metaphor for the consciousness.

If we are going to say consciousness is a ghost we must certainly define what a ghost is.

Otherwise we are just going down a worthless path.

We might as well be talking about Jesus.

 

[ryan]

We do know what to do with ideas that are complete fabrications and have no evidence to support them.

We are highly skeptical of them and therefore cannot rationally use them in an argument.

When we start talking about ghosts somebody has to understand the conversation has left the tracks of sanity.

The ghost is actually a metaphor for the consciousness.

If we are going to say consciousness is a ghost we must certainly define what a ghost is.

Otherwise we are just going down a worthless path.

We might as well be talking about Jesus.

Consciousness is like a ghost in a block universe. It has no material existence. It just observes parts of the block.

 

[ryan]

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

From a monist perspective, consciousness in no more "like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure" than is any other phenomenon. What I am conscious of at any given point in time is singular and unique, and doesn't change or move in any of the four dimensions of 'block time'.

Why aren't we conscious of it all all at once? Why am I conscious for a particular system? Something is travelling through the structure. There is absolutely no reason why it can't be something that is not physical, but rather, just "shines a light" on the structure.

You are not conscious of it all at once for the same reason that a moving car isn't on every part of the road at once. 'at once' implies a single point in the time dimension, and 'it all' implies every point in the time dimension (or at least, every point at which we are conscious). You can no more be conscious of all of the time of your existence simultaneously, than you can be in every location you will ever visit simultaneously.

Or, to put it another way, from the 'God's eye' perspective of block time, you can ONLY be conscious of it all at once - your conscious state at any point in time is a fixed part of the block.

Okay then it is a fixed part of the block. That is already a property in of itself. What about the consciousness?

 

[bilby]

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

Alright then.

So we imagine the universe is a block and a ghost is moving through it.

That is all it takes to say there is no movement. Except for the ghost of course.

Yeah, when it comes to the consciousness/ghost, I obviously don't know. I don't know because relativity does not take into account the consciousness, but somehow the consciousness traverses through what relativity describes as a static universe.

When we start talking about ghosts somebody has to understand the conversation has left the tracks of sanity.

The ghost is actually a metaphor for the consciousness.

Actually, it's a shit metaphor, that arises from confusing the different dimensional perspectives. In a block spacetime, nothing moves, because to do so would require a fifth orthogonal dimension. We see movement from our 3d perspective, but it's an illusion.

From a 4d perspective, all of time is present, and static, and I am conscious at various times within that static block. The only question is 'why can I only see things in one direction?' because I remember the past, but don't remember the future.

Of course, our regular experience provides a metaphor - perhaps the future cannot be seen because we are facing the wrong way to see it.

 

[untermensche]

Consciousness is like a ghost in a block universe. It has no material existence. It just observes parts of the block.

Oh. It behaves exactly like a ghost.

Now I understand. (this is sarcasm by the way)

 

[untermensche]

Actually, it's a shit metaphor, that arises from confusing the different dimensional perspectives. In a block spacetime, nothing moves, because to do so would require a fifth orthogonal dimension. We see movement from our 3d perspective, but it's an illusion.

From a 4d perspective, all of time is present, and static, and I am conscious at various times within that static block. The only question is 'why can I only see things in one direction?' because I remember the past, but don't remember the future.

Of course, our regular experience provides a metaphor - perhaps the future cannot be seen because we are facing the wrong way to see it.

If something has a memory of a past then it has moved from that past to something else.

Movement from the past to the future of something is needed to make the thing have any connection to experience.

But the second we start invoking ghosts to explain something we might as well invoke a magic old man with a beard to explain it.

 

[bilby]

Actually, it's a shit metaphor, that arises from confusing the different dimensional perspectives. In a block spacetime, nothing moves, because to do so would require a fifth orthogonal dimension. We see movement from our 3d perspective, but it's an illusion.

From a 4d perspective, all of time is present, and static, and I am conscious at various times within that static block. The only question is 'why can I only see things in one direction?' because I remember the past, but don't remember the future.

Of course, our regular experience provides a metaphor - perhaps the future cannot be seen because we are facing the wrong way to see it.

If something has a memory of a past then it has moved from that past to something else.

There is absolutely no reason on Earth why anyone should give this opinion any credence.

Movement from the past to the future of something is needed to make the thing have any connection to experience.

There is absolutely no reason on Earth why anyone should give this opinion any credence, either.

But the second we start invoking ghosts to explain something we might as well invoke a magic old man with a beard to explain it.

Indeed. It's a good thing that I explicitly said "Actually, it's a shit metaphor", as my contribution to the 'ghosts' topic.

Perhaps you would do better at this 'debate' thing if you kept track of who made what claims, and didn't try to debunk a claim I explicitly do NOT hold. I mean, I don't hold out much hope that you will ever do better, but you surely couldn't do worse.

Three sentences; Two are unsupported opinions of zero value, and one is a statement of the bloody obvious, about a position we clearly both share (except when you imply substance dualism, which appears to be a position you only hold when it suits you) - which rather suggests that you are not paying attention at all. Why are you bothering to post, if you are not going to actually contribute anything?

Ghosts, souls and 'the conscious' as immaterial entities are all bloody stupid ideas.

 

[untermensche]

If something has a memory of a past then it has moved from that past to something else.

There is absolutely no reason on Earth why anyone should give this opinion any credence.

That you have no argument against is evidence that once again you have absolutely nothing to say.

Movement from the past to the future of something is needed to make the thing have any connection to experience.

There is absolutely no reason on Earth why anyone should give this opinion any credence, either.

Again a bunch of empty words that do not address the point in any way.

Every time you post you prove you have nothing to say.

Indeed. It's a good thing that I explicitly said "Actually, it's a shit metaphor", as my contribution to the 'ghosts' topic.

Perhaps you would do better at this 'debate' thing if you kept track of who made what claims, and didn't try to debunk a claim I explicitly do NOT hold. I mean, I don't hold out much hope that you will ever do better, but you surely couldn't do worse.

I was agreeing with you you dumb fuck.

So now, some content.

Does anybody think it is rational to apply imaginary concepts like infinity to the universe?

By what argument is that rational?

Because we can use these imaginary concepts in models?

 

[bilby]

So now, some content.

Where?

Does anybody think it is rational to apply imaginary concepts like infinity to the universe?

By what argument is that rational?

Because we can use these imaginary concepts in models?

Three irrelevant and loaded questions. That's not 'content'.

 

[untermensche]

Where?

Does anybody think it is rational to apply imaginary concepts like infinity to the universe?

By what argument is that rational?

Because we can use these imaginary concepts in models?

Three loaded questions. That's not 'content'.

You make a claim but no argument demonstrating that anything is loaded.

Once again a post devoid of any content.

Infinity is a man-made imaginary concept.

It only has existence as a definition and as a mathematical tool.

If somebody disagrees then more than opinion is needed.

In other words your opinions on the matter are not arguments.

 

[ryan]

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

Alright then.

So we imagine the universe is a block and a ghost is moving through it.

That is all it takes to say there is no movement. Except for the ghost of course.

Yeah, when it comes to the consciousness/ghost, I obviously don't know. I don't know because relativity does not take into account the consciousness, but somehow the consciousness traverses through what relativity describes as a static universe.

When we start talking about ghosts somebody has to understand the conversation has left the tracks of sanity.

The ghost is actually a metaphor for the consciousness.

Actually, it's a shit metaphor, that arises from confusing the different dimensional perspectives. In a block spacetime, nothing moves, because to do so would require a fifth orthogonal dimension. We see movement from our 3d perspective, but it's an illusion.

From a 4d perspective, all of time is present, and static, and I am conscious at various times within that static block. The only question is 'why can I only see things in one direction?' because I remember the past, but don't remember the future.

Of course, our regular experience provides a metaphor - perhaps the future cannot be seen because we are facing the wrong way to see it.

Well, what is "looking" backwards, consciousness? You have to acknowledge that the consciousness is a different property of the properties of matter that we know already.

 

[bilby]

QM hurts the block universe (determinism), but it supports a growing/revealing (not actually revealing from a determined state but a random reveal) universe.

But something is moving through that frozen ice cube.

Yes, block universe really puts the mysteries of the consciousness on display. We are like ghosts traveling through this 4d structure.

You cannot eliminate movement and still have experience.

If something is experiencing the different parts of that frozen ice cube then there is movement.

It's like observing a movie film. Except we are dealing with 3d not a 2d reel.

Alright then.

So we imagine the universe is a block and a ghost is moving through it.

That is all it takes to say there is no movement. Except for the ghost of course.

Yeah, when it comes to the consciousness/ghost, I obviously don't know. I don't know because relativity does not take into account the consciousness, but somehow the consciousness traverses through what relativity describes as a static universe.

When we start talking about ghosts somebody has to understand the conversation has left the tracks of sanity.

The ghost is actually a metaphor for the consciousness.

Actually, it's a shit metaphor, that arises from confusing the different dimensional perspectives. In a block spacetime, nothing moves, because to do so would require a fifth orthogonal dimension. We see movement from our 3d perspective, but it's an illusion.

From a 4d perspective, all of time is present, and static, and I am conscious at various times within that static block. The only question is 'why can I only see things in one direction?' because I remember the past, but don't remember the future.

Of course, our regular experience provides a metaphor - perhaps the future cannot be seen because we are facing the wrong way to see it.

Well, what is "looking" backwards, consciousness? You have to acknowledge that the consciousness is a different property of the properties of matter that we know already.

Entropy is universal. It's not specific to consciousness. The 'arrow of time' doesn't require anything specific to consciousness, as it can be seen to apply to non-conscious matter (unless you are an adherent of panpsychism).

 

[ryan]

Entropy is universal. It's not specific to consciousness. The 'arrow of time' doesn't require anything specific to consciousness, as it can be seen to apply to non-conscious matter (unless you are an adherent of panpsychism).

Yes, that's the point. We already know the properties of entropy; it increases in one direction in time. But what explains the observation of time? That is a different property.