Infinte Regress Timeline...

[ryan]

To say the past does not exist is not saying time doesn't exist.

Time and the past are not the same thing. The past is the conception of time that previously passed.

If time passed previously then that means time DOES exist.

Why is everything you write the exact opposite of the way things are?

Let me get this straight...

If time passed previously then that means time DOES exist. The past is the conception of time that previously passed. But the past doesn't exist.

???

It's presentism as opposed to the more popular eternalism.

 

[Mageth]

Let me get this straight...

If time passed previously then that means time DOES exist. The past is the conception of time that previously passed. But the past doesn't exist.

???

It's presentism as opposed to the more popular eternalism.

It's freakin' nonsense, ryan.

 

[skepticalbip]

It's presentism as opposed to the more popular eternalism.

It's freakin' nonsense, ryan.

Yup, philosophy comes up with some weird shit. I expect to be confronted with an argument from solipsism any time now in this thread.

 

[untermensche]

As I said, you should quit talking about relativity. If you understood just a little more you would be damned embarassed if you are capable of embarassment.

Gravitating matter would still effect what you should imagine in your thought experiment. It would affect space and so the reality of what was there. "Freezing" time does not affect either gravity or space. If your thought experiment does not take this into account then you are only dreaming a fantasy world, not trying to understand the universe.

You can't possibly be this dense.

Gravity has no effects on an imaginary object.

The evidence is there. It can not be poured into your brain if you resist for the sole purpose of maintaining denial.

You're full of shit.

Present the evidence of the past to prove you're not.

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It's presentism as opposed to the more popular eternalism.

Do you think the past exists?

Where does it exist?

 

[untermensche]

Let me get this straight...

If time passed previously then that means time DOES exist.

The present exists. Time is a changing present state.

The past is the conception of time that previously passed.

Yes.

But the past doesn't exist.

Of course not. It is just a conception of prior states. All that exists is the present state. All that can exist is the changing present state.

Oh, and lest we forget, the present comes before the past...

The real present comes before the conceptual past.

which is the conception of time that previously passed, but which is not real.

Things that only exist as conceptions of course are not real. Your problems are only in your problems to understand what is clear.

Again, where is this evidence of the past? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?

 

[skepticalbip]

You can't possibly be this dense.

Gravity has no effects on an imaginary object.

Just damned dude! Is it possible that you don't even know what a thought experiment is and its purpose?

It is supposed to be imaging how reality works under different conditions that can not actually be done. The purpose is to learn something about the nature of reality. If you want to understand the universe with your thought experiment then you have to also imagine what we know happens under those conditions in your thought experiment. Einstein started his most famous thought experiment with a known - the speed of light was constant regardless of reference frame. He then considered how the universe must be for this known to be so while still obeying the other laws that we knew to be true.

If you just want to imagine dream worlds where fairies can dance around then have at it but don't call it a scientific thought experiment, call it what it is daydreaming.

The evidence is there. It can not be poured into your brain if you resist for the sole purpose of maintaining denial.

You're full of shit.

Present the evidence of the past to prove you're not.

If you were not so damned funny, there would be no reason to read your posts. Thanks for the giggles.

 

[untermensche]

This has to be one of the funniest positions I've ever hear anybody defend.

The past is a real entity floating out there somewhere in the eternal ether.

The claim that the past is real is too insane to really take seriously.

The past is real.

Where is it?

You can't see it.

How do you know it is real?

I kinda have a certain feeling in my pelvis. This is all the evidence I need.

 

[untermensche]

It is supposed to be imaging how reality works under different conditions that can not actually be done.

Again, can you be this dense?

There is NOTHING working in a frozen universe. Nothing is moving. That means the effects of energy are frozen too.

This thought experiment is not being used to explain how the universe works. It is being used to model a universal "now".

I really suspect this incredibly simple conception is beyond you.

 

[Mageth]

The present exists. Time is a changing present state.

The past is the conception of time that previously passed.

Yes.

But the past doesn't exist.

Of course not. It is just a conception of prior states. All that exists is the present state. All that can exist is the changing present state.

Oh, and lest we forget, the present comes before the past...

The real present comes before the conceptual past.

which is the conception of time that previously passed, but which is not real.

Things that only exist as conceptions of course are not real. Your problems are only in your problems to understand what is clear.

Again, where is this evidence of the past? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?

So the real present, which exists now, comes before the past, which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist.

Back to WTF, unter. Never left it, actually.

 

[untermensche]

So the real present, which exists now, comes before the past, which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist.

Back to WTF, unter. Never left it, actually.

What is so hard?

The present is real. It's right here. We are continually experiencing it. We can't be experiencing something that isn't real.

But the past?

We can't experience it.

That which we can't experience can't be thought to be real. By sane people at least.

 

[skepticalbip]

It is supposed to be imaging how reality works under different conditions that can not actually be done.

Again, can you be this dense?

There is NOTHING working in a frozen universe. Nothing is moving. That means the effects of energy are frozen too.

This thought experiment is not being used to explain how the universe works. It is being used to model a universal "now".

I really suspect this incredibly simple conception is beyond you.

Dude. The experiment would stop time so motion. It would not stop the effects of gravitation and its effect on space and anything in that space. Space and time would still remain warped and distorted. If you want to learn anything about the universe in this thought experiment then you have to take these things into account in your thought experiment. If you knew anything about relativity then you would know that this is a very important bit of physics that can not be ignored. You would also have to consider who's NOW would be "frozen". I would go on but it would be a waste of time since you have your eyes shut and your ears plugged while shouting LALALALALALALAL so you don't have any of your beliefs corrupted with a little reality.

 

[Mageth]

So the real present, which exists now, comes before the past, which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist.

Back to WTF, unter. Never left it, actually.

What is so hard?

The present is real. It's right here. We are continually experiencing it. We can't be experiencing something that isn't real.

But the past?

We can't experience it.

That which we can't experience can't be thought to be real. By sane people at least.

I'll repeat the WTF-inducing stuff...

So the real present, which exists now, comes before the past, which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist.

Your attempt at a response does not overcome the WTF.

BTW, I experienced the past. Many years of it. Didn't you? Are you saying what you experienced wasn't real?

 

[untermensche]

I'll repeat the WTF-inducing stuff...

So the real present, which exists now, comes before the past, which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist.

BTW, I experienced the past. Many years of it. Didn't you? Are you saying what you experienced wasn't real?

You experienced the present. Whenever you experienced anything you were experiencing the changing present. You never experienced the past.

To claim so is to appear a fool.

Show me the past we can experience.

SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE.

 

[skepticalbip]

I'll repeat the WTF-inducing stuff...

So the real present, which exists now, comes before the past, which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist.

BTW, I experienced the past. Many years of it. Didn't you? Are you saying what you experienced wasn't real?

You experienced the present. Whenever you experienced anything you were experiencing the changing present. You never experienced the past.

To claim so is to appear a fool.

Show me the past we can experience.

SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE.

Look at the Sun. What you see happened eight minutes ago. The keyboard that you see in front of you is your keyboard some time ago in the past. Everything you see is what it was in the past so none are real. You seem to be sliding toward the solipsism argument sooner than I expected.

 

[untermensche]

Look at the Sun. What you see happened eight minutes ago. The keyboard that you see in front of you is your keyboard some time ago in the past. Everything you see in what it was in the past. You seem to be sliding toward the solipsism argument sooner than I expected.

The light that hits my eye from the sun hits it in the present.

The light left the sun in the past.

Seeing the light in the present that left in the past is not looking at the past.

To think so is not to think very well.

 

[bilby]

So the real present, which exists now, comes before the past, which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist.

Back to WTF, unter. Never left it, actually.

What is so hard?

The present is real. It's right here. We are continually experiencing it. We can't be experiencing something that isn't real.

But the past?

We can't experience it.

That which we can't experience can't be thought to be real. By sane people at least.

Post #1,821 of this thread:

If you walk out of a room, does it cease to exist? Most people stop assuming that at about 5 - 7 months of age.

If you think reality is limited only to your experience, then I don't exist, as we have never met. So you are arguing with yourself. Sane people don't do that.

 

[Mageth]

I'll repeat the WTF-inducing stuff...

So the real present, which exists now, comes before the past, which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist.

BTW, I experienced the past. Many years of it. Didn't you? Are you saying what you experienced wasn't real?

You experienced the present. You never experienced the past.

I experience the present. Present tense.

I exprienced the past. Past tense.

To claim so is to appear a fool.

To claim that you didn't experience the past is lunacy.

Show me the past we can experience.

According to you, the present comes before the past, so you'll be experiencing it in a second.

SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE.

String two coherent thoughts together in sequence, why doncha?

Seriously, the real present, which exists now, and whiich we experienced, comes before the past, which we never experienced, and which is nothing but the conception of time that previously passed, and doesn't exist, but will be here any second, because the real present which we experienced comes before the past which isn't experienced.

WTF???

 

[untermensche]

If you think reality is limited only to your experience, then I don't exist, as we have never met. So you are arguing with yourself. Sane people don't do that.

SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE.

Show me this thing you claim exists.

If a man says a thing exists but can't show me any evidence of its existence I say the man is deluded.

 

[skepticalbip]

Look at the Sun. What you see happened eight minutes ago. The keyboard that you see in front of you is your keyboard some time ago in the past. Everything you see in what it was in the past. You seem to be sliding toward the solipsism argument sooner than I expected.

The light that hits my eye from the sun hits it in the present.

The light left the sun in the past.

Seeing the light in the present that left in the past is not looking at the past.

To think so is not to think very well.

But how do you know the sun is real, or your keyboard, or anything else? All the information you get is from the past and the past does not exist, according to you.

 

[bilby]

If you think reality is limited only to your experience, then I don't exist, as we have never met. So you are arguing with yourself. Sane people don't do that.

SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE.

Show me this thing you claim exists.

If a man says a thing exists but can't show me any evidence of its existence I say the man is deluded.

What do you say about a man who argues with a person who he is certain does not exist? Delusion seems like the least of his problems.