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Infinte Regress Timeline...

I agree, and I addressed this the post. For the frame of reference that time is infinite in, her interval becomes infinitesimally small. Time as we know it ceases to exist in the ageless frame of reference. The infinite amount of time in the ageless frame of reference becomes something else.
This is just looks like some weird hallucination of yours. Is everything ok? 'Cause reading this starts me worrying about your mental state.

If there is an infinite number of units of time, then there is some interval of time that our units of time become infinitely small. Do you agree so far? Why not?
 
Because, time goes in one direction. So it really has to start before it stops.

Why?

That would only be true if time was finite; but to make such an assumption would be begging the question.

If the past is infinite, then it really doesn't have to start. That's what the past being infinite means.

If we rightfully agree that what I mentioned is a property of time, then it wouldn't even makes sense to question whether or not time is infinite.
 
Why?

That would only be true if time was finite; but to make such an assumption would be begging the question.

If the past is infinite, then it really doesn't have to start. That's what the past being infinite means.

If we rightfully agree that what I mentioned is a property of time, then it wouldn't even makes sense to question whether or not time is infinite.

There is nothing "rightfully" to agree on.
 
Why?

That would only be true if time was finite; but to make such an assumption would be begging the question.

If the past is infinite, then it really doesn't have to start. That's what the past being infinite means.

If we rightfully agree that what I mentioned is a property of time, then it wouldn't even makes sense to question whether or not time is infinite.

Which part are you claiming is a property of time, and why do you imagine that I agree (or that you are right)?

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How can any sequential length of time end without beginning. That's a contradiction.

No it isn't.

- That was me contradicting you ;)

If you think it is a contradiction, then show your work.
 
If we rightfully agree that what I mentioned is a property of time, then it wouldn't even makes sense to question whether or not time is infinite.

Which part are you claiming is a property of time, and why do you imagine that I agree (or that you are right)?

Any previous moment or unit of time must have occurred before any time after it. Time must begin before it ends.


How can any sequential length of time end without beginning. That's a contradiction.

No it isn't.

- That was me contradicting you ;)

If you think it is a contradiction, then show your work.

I did for Juma
 
Then show that it is a contradiction.

A sequence of time means that an earlier unit must come before the next unit. Time must start before it ends.

In an infinite past every 'unit' has an infinite number of earlier 'units' coming before it. Is that not enough for you?
 
Then show that it is a contradiction.

A sequence of time means that an earlier unit must come before the next unit. Time must start before it ends.

Where is the contradiction? To show a contradiction is to explicitily state the two contradicting statements can be deduced.

On the contrary your reasoning above leads to the opposite conclusion: an earlier unit must come before each unit. Thus there cannot be a first unit
 
A sequence of time means that an earlier unit must come before the next unit. Time must start before it ends.

In an infinite past every 'unit' has an infinite number of earlier 'units' coming before it. Is that not enough for you?

Would there be a beginning an infinite number of units ago?

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A sequence of time means that an earlier unit must come before the next unit. Time must start before it ends.

Where is the contradiction? To show a contradiction is to explicitily state the two contradicting statements can be deduced.

On the contrary your reasoning above leads to the opposite conclusion: an earlier unit must come before each unit. Thus there cannot be a first unit
Notice that I said "next unit". Beginning unit is not a proceeding unit.

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You can include an infinite number of anything with a small enough scale.

Why? Why do you do that? What is the purpose of that thread of reasoning?

To explain what an infinite number of units of time would mean.
 
Would there be a beginning an infinite number of units ago?
No. Since if there was a beginning there would be an infinite past. (Think!, ryan! Think!)

Notice that I said "next unit". Beginning unit is not a proceeding unit.
Exactly. Now you only have to prove that there must be a "beginning unit"

To explain what an infinite number of units of time would mean.

And the only thing you have come up with so far is "it looks small on a big scale" which has nothing to do with time itself.
 
I have arguments.
If one claims the past is infinite. That is the same as saying the amount of time that has already passed is infinite since the past is time that has already passed.

If this can't be understood then people have trouble understanding truisms. It is simply a truism that the past is time that has already passed.

If one claims the amount of time that has already passed is infinite they are saying it is an amount that has no limit or end.

This is just another truism, a definitional truism. An infinite amount of time is an amount of time that has no end. Infinite time in the future is time without end in the future. It is an amount of time that will never finish passing.

So if one claims the amount of time in the past is infinite that means they are claiming the amount of time that has passed before any present moment is an amount of time than never finishes passing.

Their claim is absurd. An amount of time that never finishes passing can't have already passed before any present moment.

It is like claiming the amount of time in an infinite future has finished passing.
<snip>
For your information the only argument that can dispute this is an argument that shows that an infinite amount of time finishes. An argument that shows an infinite amount of time in the future is an amount of time that finishes would be an argument to dispute this argument.

Contrary to what you say here, there is no need to show that an infinite amount of time can pass (or finish, end, elapse etc). This is because we are discussing the concept of absolute time, not whether time can actually do what our concept of it says it does. The point of this discussion, based on your arguments, as you have reposted them again and again, and if we can understand them at all given the poor wording, is whether our ordinary concept of absolute time is somehow illogical, i.e. self-contradictory. That's all there is to this discussion.

Now, your argument fails to prove that our ordinary concept of absolute time is somehow illogical. So let's look again at the main point of your argument as it is quoted above:
An infinite amount of time is an amount of time that has no end.

First, we seem to agree that "infinite" just means "without an end". However, to conclude as you do that an infinite amount of time cannot have an end is obviously wrong. Let's see why in detail.

To infer that an infinite amount of time cannot have an end from the fact that "infinite" means "without an end" is to confuse the meaning of word "infinite" and the meaning of the expression "infinite time". In our ordinary concept of absolute time where the past is conceived as infinite, a period of time that has no beginning but has an end is an infinite amount of time. The use of the word "infinite" in the expression "infinite past" is not to express the idea that an infinite past has no end at all, as you appear to believe. It is only to express the idea that an infinite past has no beginning, i.e. an end if we are talking with the idea of going in the direction of the past rather than in the direction of the future. Thus, there is obviously no limit (no end) in an infinite past in the direction of the past coming from any time in the past. However, there is obviously a limit in an infinite past in the direction of the future, again coming from any point in the past. That's obviously true and that's just the ordinary concept of absolute time with an infinite past. And this is merely an elicitation of the concept. This has nothing to do with whether time itself is actually like this or not.

Further, it is obvious that there is nothing contradictory therefore in saying that there is an end to an infinite past, which may be the last day before yesterday if we count in days, or the last second if we count in seconds etc. The notion of end is part and parcel of the idea of past. The past is time that has already passed and therefore there is necessarily an end to it (although, not necessarily a last instant). The end of the past may be the last day, or the last second etc. that's just passed depending on whether we decide to count in days or seconds etc. Again, this is merely an elicitation of the concept.

Thus, any period of time in the past starting at some definite point in the past is effectively in itself an end to the past going in the direction of the future. So, not only has an infinite past an end, but it has an infinite number of ends even though it doesn't have an end going in the direction of the past.

So, funnily enough, you are effectively infinity many times over completely wrong in saying that an infinite past has no end! Which I guess is the correct measure of the insanity of your claim.

So, to recap, your mistake is to construe wrongly, and claim wrongly, that the meaning of the expression "infinite past" is "past without end" (i.e. without any end at all) on the ground that "infinite" means "without end". This is truly a pathetic mistake, possibly caused by your low skills in the English language, but probably not given that so many people have explained to you your mistake over so many pages. Only a few people around here do manage to achive on occasions such a level of obtuseness as you do here. This has to be a record. Your mistake is not even a logical one. It's a linguistic one and yet not one that could be properly explained merely by poor skills in English. You would have a lot of work to do before you could argue anything meaningfully.
EB
 
No. Since if there was a beginning there would be an infinite past. (Think!, ryan! Think!)

So then would it be another infinite past an infinite number of units ago?
Notice that I said "next unit". Beginning unit is not a proceeding unit.

Exactly. Now you only have to prove that there must be a "beginning unit"

I was commenting on your second paragraph.

To explain what an infinite number of units of time would mean.

And the only thing you have come up with so far is "it looks small on a big scale" which has nothing to do with time itself.

The point is that an infinite number of units of time is no longer time as we know it. The infinite number of units of time becomes something different.
 
Your suspicion is well founded. What needs to be defined in his question are highlighted:
Either way I still don't understand how you can claim that units of time don't pass for some frame of reference. Where does time go?
Ryan has a passive aggressive way of slipping in ambiguous wording as a way to try to get someone to commit to something they don't know they are committing to.

Tbh, I don't think it's intentional. He just isn't a very precise thinker, yet is ambitious enough to try and tackle questions whose statements require precision. It's frustrating at times, but I don't hold it against him.
No, unfortunately, it's not intentional but explaining seems a waste of time.

Maybe it's a method, à la Descartes. Throw words you really don't understand and see how it shines a new, surreal light on things. There is an infinite number of frames of reference, but it would be of course improper to take them to be real, physical things. But, hey, a word has to refer to something, you know. So, there you are, these are actual frames of reference. Now, since there's obviously an infinite number of them and ryan somehow knows that, actually, time goes in there. So, time somehow goes into these frames, into each of them, into each of the infinite number of them. Not bad, hey? I guess time must be infinite to be able to pull the trick.

Still, compare the idea of the QM multiverse. It's not soooo different.
EB
Or indeed, it's not so different from Einstein's idea that each reference frame has its own local time and that two local times will pass at different rates if the two reference frames have a speed or an acceleration differential between them. Potentially, there would be many infinities of reference frames each with its own local time!

So ryan was correct! Time goes there. :p
EB
 
The point is that an infinite number of units of time is no longer time as we know it.
An infinite number of units of time is not time at all, never was, never will be. Time is not a number, be it a finite or an infinite number.

I think most rational people accept they don't know time. The best we can do is to work out various concepts of time and argue about these. To think that we could possibly argue about time seems idiotic to me. Time is what it is, yes? Well, assuming it exists in the first place. Yet, even if it doesn't exist we can still argue about our various concepts of time.

The infinite number of units of time becomes something different.
You mean: than a finite number of units of time?
Sure.

And if time is infinite it would be something else than if time is finite.

And we may disagree about which concept of time is best, more appropriate, etc.

What is your point exactly? :confused:
EB
 
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