Infinte Regress Timeline...

[untermensche]

The number two was invented before people knew that all things were made up of the same thing (atoms, particles).

You said, "All things are different. No two things are exactly alike", and then you post this. What is going on here?

You can't show me two things that are exactly alike.

But we are in the universe, so the universe is capable of doing whatever a human can do.

The universe with humans is capable of inventing the number 2.

The universe without humans, or something like a human intellect, can't invent any concepts.

 

[ryan]

You said, "All things are different. No two things are exactly alike", and then you post this. What is going on here?

You can't show me two things that are exactly alike.

I never said I could; this doesn't mean that your positive claim is true.

But we are in the universe, so the universe is capable of doing whatever a human can do.

The universe with humans is capable of inventing the number 2.

The universe without humans, or something like a human intellect, can't invent any concepts.

How do these abstractions come to exist when everything that makes up a human is stuff from the universe?

 

[Juma]

How do these abstractions come to exist when everything that makes up a human is stuff from the universe?

Evolution

 

[ryan]

How do these abstractions come to exist when everything that makes up a human is stuff from the universe?

Evolution

How can you get abstractions from what is not abstract?

 

[Juma]

Evolution

How can you get abstractions from what is not abstract?

Evolution

 

[ryan]

How can you get abstractions from what is not abstract?

Evolution

So when objects that are not abstract are put in certain configurations, we get abstractions? This literally does not add up.

 

[Juma]

So when objects that are not abstract are put in certain configurations, we get abstractions?

Not necessarily. But abstractions are definitely the result of non- abstract objects put in certain configurations.(not just static but dynamic)

 

[ryan]

So when objects that are not abstract are put in certain configurations, we get abstractions?

Not necessarily. But abstractions are definitely the result of non- abstract objects put in certain configurations.(not just static but dynamic)

I don't totally disagree, but you do realize that this is an incredibly controversial statement, right? This is like the Platonic or nonphysical realm.

 

[untermensche]

You can't show me two things that are exactly alike.

I never said I could; this doesn't mean that your positive claim is true.

The positive claim is the claim that the number 2 exists apart from the human mind.

The number 2 is the concept of 2 identical entities.

If you can't provide 2 identical entities then you can't make the positive claim that the number 2 exists anywhere besides the human mind.

How do these abstractions come to exist when everything that makes up a human is stuff from the universe?

Humans invent them whole.

Humans are part of the universe but that doesn't mean all the things humans invent also exist in the universe.

The tooth fairy does not exist in the universe, neither does the number 2.

 

[ryan]

I never said I could; this doesn't mean that your positive claim is true.

The positive claim is the claim that the number 2 exists apart from the human mind.

The number 2 is the concept of 2 identical entities.

If you can't provide 2 identical entities then you can't make the positive claim that the number 2 exists anywhere besides the human mind.

Why can't there be two different things in the universe?

How do these abstractions come to exist when everything that makes up a human is stuff from the universe?

Humans are part of the universe but that doesn't mean all the things humans invent also exist in the universe.

The tooth fairy does not exist in the universe, neither does the number 2.

That is false by deduction. If A is in human minds and humans are in the universe, then A is in the universe.

 

[Juma]

Not necessarily. But abstractions are definitely the result of non- abstract objects put in certain configurations.(not just static but dynamic)

I don't totally disagree, but you do realize that this is an incredibly controversial statement, right? This is like the Platonic or nonphysical realm.

No. It is not.

Abstractions are behaviour.

And you got platon all wrong: the platonic world is the real world: what is really out there. That is: The real physical world. The shadows are what we experience. Numbers are examples of such "shadows".

 

[untermensche]

The positive claim is the claim that the number 2 exists apart from the human mind.

The number 2 is the concept of 2 identical entities.

If you can't provide 2 identical entities then you can't make the positive claim that the number 2 exists anywhere besides the human mind.

Why can't there be two different things in the universe?

Only two?

By what mechanism does anything besides something like a human ignore everything else in the universe and only focus on two things?

Humans are part of the universe but that doesn't mean all the things humans invent also exist in the universe.

The tooth fairy does not exist in the universe, neither does the number 2.

That is false by deduction. If A is in human minds and humans are in the universe, then A is in the universe.

Once humans invent things they are in the universe, but not until they are invented.

Once humans invented the concept of 2 it was in the universe, but not before.

And the tooth fairy exists in the universe as the number 2 exists, only as a human invented concept.

 

[ryan]

I don't totally disagree, but you do realize that this is an incredibly controversial statement, right? This is like the Platonic or nonphysical realm.

No. It is not.

Abstractions are behaviour.

How are you defining "abstraction".

And you got platon all wrong: the platonic world is the real world: what is really out there. That is: The real physical world. The shadows are what we experience. Numbers are examples of such "shadows".

Platonism extends beyond that.

 

[Juma]

No. It is not.

Abstractions are behaviour.

How are you defining "abstraction".

And you got platon all wrong: the platonic world is the real world: what is really out there. That is: The real physical world. The shadows are what we experience. Numbers are examples of such "shadows".

Platonism extends beyond that.

Yeah. Platonism is a big bag of shit. But we are talking platon here, not platonism.

 

[ryan]

Why can't there be two different things in the universe?

Only two?

By what mechanism does anything besides something like a human ignore everything else in the universe and only focus on two things?

Humans are part of the universe but that doesn't mean all the things humans invent also exist in the universe.

The tooth fairy does not exist in the universe, neither does the number 2.

That is false by deduction. If A is in human minds and humans are in the universe, then A is in the universe.

Once humans invent things they are in the universe, but not until they are invented.

Once humans invented the concept of 2 it was in the universe, but not before.

And the tooth fairy exists in the universe as the number 2 exists, only as a human invented concept.

I can see both sides of the argument. I am officially lost in the rabbit hole.

 

[Bomb#20]

All things are different. No two things are exactly alike.

I can't possibly trust that you know this.

He doesn't. According to our best-tested theory of physics, any two electrons are exactly alike. This isn't a matter of "we haven't observed any differences yet". This is a matter of "quantum weirdness". There's nothing analogous to this in classical mechanics to help wrap your mind around it. In quantum mechanics objects behave statistically differently around other identical objects from the way they behave around non-identical objects.

You can't show me two things that are exactly alike.

I never said I could; this doesn't mean that your positive claim is true.

The positive claim is the claim that the number 2 exists apart from the human mind.

The number 2 is the concept of 2 identical entities.

If you can't provide 2 identical entities then you can't make the positive claim that the number 2 exists anywhere besides the human mind.

How do these abstractions come to exist when everything that makes up a human is stuff from the universe?

Humans invent them whole.

Humans are part of the universe but that doesn't mean all the things humans invent also exist in the universe.

The tooth fairy does not exist in the universe, neither does the number 2.

Yes, 2 exists apart from the human mind. Humans didn't invent the concept of 2; we inherited it. Many many species can count to 2; a lot can count quite a bit higher than that.

 

[another1]

Watch out for the infinitely regressive number -2 down in that rabbit hole. "Smoke some salvia" is the only half way decent advice I have ever given in my life, so smoke some. Time makes better sense briefly but you'll forget by the time you come down from the drug. Go legally purchase and smoke it. Hundreds of thousands of rabbit hole seekers perceive time non-linearly for brief periods. That is all I have after reading 290 pages of your compelling stuff.

 

[ryan]

I can't possibly trust that you know this.

He doesn't. According to our best-tested theory of physics, any two electrons are exactly alike. This isn't a matter of "we haven't observed any differences yet". This is a matter of "quantum weirdness". There's nothing analogous to this in classical mechanics to help wrap your mind around it. In quantum mechanics objects behave statistically differently around other identical objects from the way they behave around non-identical objects.

You can't show me two things that are exactly alike.

I never said I could; this doesn't mean that your positive claim is true.

The positive claim is the claim that the number 2 exists apart from the human mind.

The number 2 is the concept of 2 identical entities.

If you can't provide 2 identical entities then you can't make the positive claim that the number 2 exists anywhere besides the human mind.

How do these abstractions come to exist when everything that makes up a human is stuff from the universe?

Humans invent them whole.

Humans are part of the universe but that doesn't mean all the things humans invent also exist in the universe.

The tooth fairy does not exist in the universe, neither does the number 2.

Yes, 2 exists apart from the human mind. Humans didn't invent the concept of 2; we inherited it. Many many species can count to 2; a lot can count quite a bit higher than that.

Yeah, maybe that is a better way to think about it. I was going down a path that got out of control.

I am just going to let this stuff stew unconsciously for a little while, and hopefully the fog clears.

 

[untermensche]

He doesn't. According to our best-tested theory of physics, any two electrons are exactly alike. This isn't a matter of "we haven't observed any differences yet". This is a matter of "quantum weirdness". There's nothing analogous to this in classical mechanics to help wrap your mind around it. In quantum mechanics objects behave statistically differently around other identical objects from the way they behave around non-identical objects.

Show me two electrons that are exactly alike. For that matter show me an electron.

Don't talk of models, provide definitive evidence if you want to claim all electrons are exactly alike.

Yes, 2 exists apart from the human mind.

Where is it?

 

[Kharakov]

In a  Boltzmann brain near you.

In fact, because quantum fluctuations are allegedly part of the eternal nature of the universe, the number 2 (the thought itself) has to come into existence all over the place, all the time.

That's just the quantum thingy though- it might not be true. Unless you squeeze your eyes shut really hard.