Infinte Regress Timeline...

[Malintent]

I like turtles.

 

[untermensche]

Do you think you're thought of the tooth fairy is actually the tooth fairy? Of course it isn't because the tooth fairy, as legend has it, puts money under real pillows of real kids; those things don't exist in your brain.

The tooth fairy is like the number "3". It exists only as a thought and in human symbols. Like the number "3" the tooth fairy has no real existence beyond this.

Is this 3 made out of elementary particles?

Is the tooth fairy?

There is a difference between saying real world quantities are what caused humans to invent numbers and saying the universe in any way uses numbers.

I am saying that there is something constant that comes with the information on the outside that interacts with our brains to give us the concept of 3. 3 is just a different symbol for the 3 that is out there; the 3 in our minds is a "hybrid" of our brain functions and this unknown constant.

As I said, I am perfectly happy with the idea that real world quantities are what caused humans to invent numbers.

But I don't know how many times I have to say this, there is a mental step between looking at three coconuts and inventing the number "3".

A brain has to evolve to a certain point before it can make such abstractions, but it is no more than an abstraction.

Mental abstractions of the world are not real entities in the world.

The number "3" has as much of a real existence as the tooth fairy.

 

[Perspicuo]

I like turtles.

Off topic!!!











( )

 

[dx713]

I like turtles.

So do I, but there must be a floor somewhere in the universe, otherwise there would be an infinite number of turtles needed to support your world, which is not possible, so your world would not exist.

Show

But what is the floor made of and what is supporting it?

 

[fromderinside]

I like turtles.

So do I, but there must be a floor somewhere in the universe, otherwise there would be an infinite number of turtles needed to support your world, which is not possible, so your world would not exist.

Show

But what is the floor made of and what is supporting it?

ever here of such as center of force, mass, etc. That's hat happened to regress.

 

[ryan]

The tooth fairy is like the number "3". It exists only as a thought and in human symbols. Like the number "3" the tooth fairy has no real existence beyond this.

I still think that elements of the thoughts of 3 and the tooth fairy exist outside of the brain.

Is this 3 made out of elementary particles?

Is the tooth fairy?

There has never been evidence of anything existing that does not consist of the elementary particles. If they do not consist of elementary particles, then what is it that you are talking about? They would have to be nonphysical objects like a ghost.

I am not saying that you are wrong; it's just that it's a huge leap to base your argument on.

I am saying that there is something constant that comes with the information on the outside that interacts with our brains to give us the concept of 3. 3 is just a different symbol for the 3 that is out there; the 3 in our minds is a "hybrid" of our brain functions and this unknown constant.

As I said, I am perfectly happy with the idea that real world quantities are what caused humans to invent numbers.

But I don't know how many times I have to say this, there is a mental step between looking at three coconuts and inventing the number "3".

A brain has to evolve to a certain point before it can make such abstractions, but it is no more than an abstraction.

Mental abstractions of the world are not real entities in the world.

The number "3" has as much of a real existence as the tooth fairy.

Well then this has come down to an argument for mind-body dualism. I spent years on here trying to figure out how to demonstrate its existence, but I always ended the threads admitting defeat to various approaches. So if you can convince me that there are abstract objects in the mind, it will be bitter sweet for me. Bitterness in this thread but sweet for my intuition.

 

[Malintent]

I like turtles.

Off topic!!!

( )

no more than the last 200 pages or so, though... I thought this discussion was converted to the "random thoughts thread".

Anyone here enjoy iced coffee? I just discovered Cold Brewing (aka "toddy"). I swear, it almost tastes like chocolate, it is so rich and delicious... but it takes 24 hours or so to make.. so requires planning.

 

[ryan]

Off topic!!!

( )

no more than the last 200 pages or so, though... I thought this discussion was converted to the "random thoughts thread".

Anyone here enjoy iced coffee? I just discovered Cold Brewing (aka "toddy"). I swear, it almost tastes like chocolate, it is so rich and delicious... but it takes 24 hours or so to make.. so requires planning.

Actually, we are discussing whether or not mathematics is something that exists outside of the mind so that we can discuss whether or not infinities can exist. There has been very little unnecessary derailments until now.

 

[untermensche]

I still think that elements of the thoughts of 3 and the tooth fairy exist outside of the brain.

Where can I look and find the number "3"?

Not 3 entities but the number "3" all by itself.

There has never been evidence of anything existing that does not consist of the elementary particles. If they do not consist of elementary particles, then what is it that you are talking about? They would have to be nonphysical objects like a ghost.

A can spin a top. The top is made up of elementary particles. The spin is not.

So we have something existing, "spin", that does not consist of elementary particles.

The brain may be like a very complex top, and consciousness a very complex "spin".

The brain consists of elementary particles but thoughts may not.

Well then this has come down to an argument for mind-body dualism. I spent years on here trying to figure out how to demonstrate its existence, but I always ended the threads admitting defeat to various approaches. So if you can convince me that there are abstract objects in the mind, it will be bitter sweet for me. Bitterness in this thread but sweet for my intuition.

Thoughts are real. There is no dualism.

Is acceleration real? Can you show me acceleration just by itself with nothing else involved?

Thoughts are like acceleration. They require a brain to exist, just as a moving object is needed for acceleration to exist.

 

[ryan]

Where can I look and find the number "3"?

Not 3 entities but the number "3" all by itself.

Why are you equating "element of 3" with the whole 3? I do not think that 3 is out there; I think that there is something out there that results in the thought of 3.

There has never been evidence of anything existing that does not consist of the elementary particles. If they do not consist of elementary particles, then what is it that you are talking about? They would have to be nonphysical objects like a ghost.

A can spin a top. The top is made up of elementary particles. The spin is not.

Spin is just elementary particles in different positions through time.

So we have something existing, "spin", that does not consist of elementary particles.

If you take away the particles, there is no spin.

The brain may be like a very complex top, and consciousness a very complex "spin".

The brain consists of elementary particles but thoughts may not.

Why can't the tooth fairy be a function or state of particles in the brain?

Well then this has come down to an argument for mind-body dualism. I spent years on here trying to figure out how to demonstrate its existence, but I always ended the threads admitting defeat to various approaches. So if you can convince me that there are abstract objects in the mind, it will be bitter sweet for me. Bitterness in this thread but sweet for my intuition.

Thoughts are real. There is no dualism.

Dualism also implies that thoughts are real.

Is acceleration real? Can you show me acceleration just by itself with nothing else involved?

Thoughts are like acceleration. They require a brain to exist, just as a moving object is needed for acceleration to exist.

Acceleration, like spin, are sets of elementary particles changing position through time. These sets of states trigger symbols and thoughts in the brain like the words "acceleration" and "spin". Just like numbers, there is something out there that consistently results in regular brain functions.

I speak positively here, but I don't actually mean it. It's just annoying if I keet saying "I think" or "it seems".

 

[Malintent]

no more than the last 200 pages or so, though... I thought this discussion was converted to the "random thoughts thread".

Anyone here enjoy iced coffee? I just discovered Cold Brewing (aka "toddy"). I swear, it almost tastes like chocolate, it is so rich and delicious... but it takes 24 hours or so to make.. so requires planning.

Actually, we are discussing whether or not mathematics is something that exists outside of the mind so that we can discuss whether or not infinities can exist. There has been very little unnecessary derailments until now.

.. which itself is entirely impossible without a good cup of coffee to start you out with. Once you accomplish that, you can decide of "numbers exist" so you can continue on to "does math exist" and later, some day, approach the question of "turtles". This thread is about turtles, right?

But first, coffee.

 

[untermensche]

Why are you equating "element of 3" with the whole 3? I do not think that 3 is out there; I think that there is something out there that results in the thought of 3.

Where is it? What are you talking about?

You are making no argument beyond, "I have a gut feeling". It is not an argument that has any weight.

Spin is just elementary particles in different positions through time.

But spin is not made up of elementary particles. It is something elementary particles can do.

Like a brain can produce thoughts.

If you take away the particles, there is no spin.

That is my point. Spin exists, but it only exists as a result of real entities doing something, not as a thing in itself.

Just as thoughts exist as a result of the brain doing something but not as things in themselves.

Is acceleration real? Can you show me acceleration just by itself with nothing else involved?

Thoughts are like acceleration. They require a brain to exist, just as a moving object is needed for acceleration to exist.

Acceleration, like spin, are sets of elementary particles changing position through time. These sets of states trigger symbols and thoughts in the brain like the words "acceleration" and "spin". Just like numbers, there is something out there that consistently results in regular brain functions.

They only signal thoughts in the rare genius. This is how mathematics progresses, from the thoughts of one rare mind to another. Which to me means it is not the outside world providing these abstractions, but certain rare brains providing them.

 

[ryan]

Actually, we are discussing whether or not mathematics is something that exists outside of the mind so that we can discuss whether or not infinities can exist. There has been very little unnecessary derailments until now.

.. which itself is entirely impossible without a good cup of coffee to start you out with. Once you accomplish that, you can decide of "numbers exist" so you can continue on to "does math exist" and later, some day, approach the question of "turtles". This thread is about turtles, right?

But first, coffee.

We haven't got to turtles yet.

 

[ryan]

Where is it? What are you talking about?

An element of 3 enters the brain; it is an input from outside of the brain.

You are making no argument beyond, "I have a gut feeling". It is not an argument that has any weight.

I am trying to explain how it all works if what we know about our interaction with the environment is true.

Spin is just elementary particles in different positions through time.

But spin is not made up of elementary particles. It is something elementary particles can do.

Spin is a concept in the brain that refers to particles in different positions through time. There is no spin out there; there are just particles changing positions.

If you take away the particles, there is no spin.

That is my point. Spin exists, but it only exists as a result of real entities doing something, not as a thing in itself.

That's because it isn't a thing; it is our description of a thing.

Acceleration, like spin, are sets of elementary particles changing position through time. These sets of states trigger symbols and thoughts in the brain like the words "acceleration" and "spin". Just like numbers, there is something out there that consistently results in regular brain functions.

They only signal thoughts in the rare genius. This is how mathematics progresses, from the thoughts of one rare mind to another. Which to me means it is not the outside world providing these abstractions, but certain rare brains providing them.

There needs to be both. I would assume that a baby kept alive in a dark sound proof box by feeding tubes will never think of the thoughts that we do.

 

[untermensche]

An element of 3 enters the brain; it is an input from outside of the brain.

Abstraction is to take things that do enter the brain and make something completely new. Like a dream. Do you think dreams are a portrayal of real things?

Humans take 3 coconuts and make the abstraction of a free floating "3".

If "3" has some existence in the world, where is it?

I am trying to explain how it all works if what we know about our interaction with the environment is true.

The thing a brain can do is take in information from the world and scramble it up and make something completely new.

The brain is not limited in the way you claim it is limited.

It is not limited to just reflect what is in the world. We call this ability imagination. To imagine something does not require the something having existence outside of the mind.

 

[ryan]

Abstraction is to take things that do enter the brain and make something completely new.

This is close to my argument.

Like a dream. Do you think dreams are a portrayal of real things?

Yes they do but only elements of information that enters the brain. Your wildest dreams are just samples of elements of what is out there that combine in processes in the brain. A dragon, UFO, sea monster, killer puppies with super powers are all things and images that were triggered by things out there.

Humans take 3 coconuts and make the abstraction of a free floating "3".

If "3" has some existence in the world, where is it?

It comes to mind when information from outside of the brain combines with the brain to begin a process that results in the thought of 3 coconuts. Instead of 2 coconuts, or 1 coconut, 3 coconuts is different information that triggers the reaction in the brain.

I am trying to explain how it all works if what we know about our interaction with the environment is true.

[QUOTE/]The thing a brain can do is take in information from the world and scramble it up and make something completely new.

The brain is not limited in the way you claim it is limited.

It is not limited to just reflect what is in the world. We call this ability imagination. To imagine something does not require the something having existence outside of the mind.

Would you agree that the analogy with the baby in the box that baby would probably never imagine the same kinds of thoughts that we can? Or would he have thoughts of computers, dragons, tooth fairies, etc?

 

[untermensche]

Would you agree that the analogy with the baby in the box that baby would probably never imagine the same kinds of thoughts that we can? Or would he have thoughts of computers, dragons, tooth fairies, etc?

These are not thoughts we all can have.

Mathematics is advanced by the rare genius.

So it is rare minds that give us mathematics, not the world.

If it was the world we all could do it, since we all experience the world.

 

[ryan]

Would you agree that the analogy with the baby in the box that baby would probably never imagine the same kinds of thoughts that we can? Or would he have thoughts of computers, dragons, tooth fairies, etc?

These are not thoughts we all can have.

Mathematics is advanced by the rare genius.

So it is rare minds that give us mathematics, not the world.

If it was the world we all could do it, since we all experience the world.

I am saying that it's a certain brain and certain inputs. Math as we know it requires our brains and specific kinds of inputs. Heck you even need food just to keep the motor running.

 

[untermensche]

I am saying that it's a certain brain and certain inputs. Math as we know it requires our brains and specific kinds of inputs. Heck you even need food just to keep the motor running.

Mathematics builds on itself.

Mathematicians don't study the world to make advancements. They study prior discoveries in mathematics.

 

[ryan]

I am saying that it's a certain brain and certain inputs. Math as we know it requires our brains and specific kinds of inputs. Heck you even need food just to keep the motor running.

Mathematics builds on itself.

Mathematicians don't study the world to make advancements. They study prior discoveries in mathematics.

Math ultimately comes from the observations made in the world. Then they simplified and fleshed out some axioms/postulates. Because of some of these axioms, we can make predictions with calculations that have never been made. This shows certain axioms to be inherently true in the universe.

This should be no surprise because our brains are the same stuff as the universe, and they follow the same rules as the rest of the universe.