Infinte Regress Timeline...

[untermensche]

You need to pay more attention to Lawrence Krauss...

I suppose this is you admitting you have no infinite series that ends.

I agree the universe is not logical. But infinity is a human creation and it is a logical concept.

An infinite series is a series that does not end.

If somebody says the past is an infinite series they have to explain how it can end at every present moment.

Show me an infinite series that ends. Not one with a start and not one with a limit.

One that ends.

 

[untermensche]

An infinite amount of time is an amount of time that never ends. So it is hard to agree that it finished.

No. Your definition is just plain wrong.

Could you justify it? Does it come from a dictionary? A philosopher? Just your own imagination?

What would you want as a reference?

This is set theory 101.

An infinite set is a set defined such that it has no final value. It is a set that goes on forever.

The set of positive integers has no end. It has no highest value. The set of negative integers does not end. It has no lowest value.

 

[Juma]

An infinite set is a set defined such that it has no final value.

First, last, start, end. All these concept require an ordered set. But a set does not need to be ordered to be infinite.

 

[untermensche]

An infinite set is a set defined such that it has no final value.

First, last, start, end. All these concept require an ordered set. But a set does not need to be ordered to be infinite.

But time is ordered.

 

[PyramidHead]

First, last, start, end. All these concept require an ordered set. But a set does not need to be ordered to be infinite.

But time is ordered.

So is the list of all real numbers between 1 and 2, inclusive of both. But that list has a beginning and an ending while being infinite.

 

[untermensche]

But time is ordered.

So is the list of all real numbers between 1 and 2, inclusive of both. But that list has a beginning and an ending while being infinite.

It has an end if you pretend it ends.

But what is the fraction with the highest value between 1 and 2?

 

[PyramidHead]

So is the list of all real numbers between 1 and 2, inclusive of both. But that list has a beginning and an ending while being infinite.

It has an end if you pretend it ends.

But what is the fraction with the highest value between 1 and 2?

2/1, obviously. I said the list included both 1 and 2.

 

[Juma]

First, last, start, end. All these concept require an ordered set. But a set does not need to be ordered to be infinite.

But time is ordered.

Doesnt matter. Infiniteness has nothing to do with any "first" or "last" item.

 

[untermensche]

It has an end if you pretend it ends.

But what is the fraction with the highest value between 1 and 2?

2/1, obviously. I said the list included both 1 and 2.

The infinite series are the fractions between 1 and 2.

That infinite series does not end at 2.

2 is the upper limit.

But what is the highest fraction?

1.9, or is it 1.99, or 1.999999999999999999999?

What is the highest fraction? What is the end of the series? Not, what is the upper limit?

 

[Mageth]

2/1, obviously. I said the list included both 1 and 2.

The infinite series are the fractions between 1 and 2.

That infinite series does not end at 2.

2 is the upper limit.

But what is the highest fraction?

1.9, or is it 1.99, or 1.999999999999999999999?

What is the highest fraction? What is the end of the series? Not, what is the upper limit?

So you don't know what "inclusive" means???

The highest fraction between 1 and 2, inclusive, is 2/1. Similarly, the highest fraction between 1/4 and 1/2, inclusive, is 1/2.

 

[untermensche]

But time is ordered.

Doesnt matter. Infiniteness has nothing to do with any "first" or "last" item.

It has something to do with there being no last item.

In an infinite series it is also possible there is no first item, but none have a last item.

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The infinite series are the fractions between 1 and 2.

That infinite series does not end at 2.

2 is the upper limit.

But what is the highest fraction?

1.9, or is it 1.99, or 1.999999999999999999999?

What is the highest fraction? What is the end of the series? Not, what is the upper limit?

So you don't know what "inclusive" means???

The highest fraction between 1 and 2, inclusive, is 2/1. Similarly, the highest fraction between 1/4 and 1/2, inclusive, is 1/2.

Inclusive means to set a limit.

But the infinite series between 1 and 2 are the fractions between 1 and 2. And that series has no highest member. Or lowest member.

 

[Mageth]

Doesnt matter. Infiniteness has nothing to do with any "first" or "last" item.

It has something to do with there being no last item.

In an infinite series it is also possible there is no first item, but none have a last item.

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The infinite series are the fractions between 1 and 2.

That infinite series does not end at 2.

2 is the upper limit.

But what is the highest fraction?

1.9, or is it 1.99, or 1.999999999999999999999?

What is the highest fraction? What is the end of the series? Not, what is the upper limit?

So you don't know what "inclusive" means???

The highest fraction between 1 and 2, inclusive, is 2/1. Similarly, the highest fraction between 1/4 and 1/2, inclusive, is 1/2.

Inclusive means to set a limit.

Inclusive means that 1 and 2 are included in the set.

But the infinite series between 1 and 2 are the fractions between 1 and 2. And that series has no highest member. Or lowest member.

The set was defined as the set of all real numbers between 1 and 2, inclusive. The highest fraction in that set is 2/1.

 

[Kharakov]

What you call a red herring is the crucial point of the argument.

What you call "the crucial point" (the red herring) is the one that relies completely on misunderstanding infinity. You're arguing that people accept a fundamental misunderstanding of infinity.

An infinite past has no defined start: it has always existed. Which means it has been around for an infinite amount of time.

Thinking you can dismiss it by calling it a red herring is amusing. And weak.

Nobody is dismissing it. So many people, including a professional mathematician, wouldn't be explaining the truth if you weren't making such foolish statements.

If the amount of time in the past is claimed to be infinite then it is not a red herring to ask if it can ever finish passing.

Nope, but your claim that this question is what I was referring to is a red herring.

You said "Infinite amounts of time do not finish passing". The point of telling you to learn about  indeterminate form, which is a very important concept when dealing with infinity, is that your claim is completely incorrect. Once again, I suggest you read about it.

If something has existed forever, at every point in time of its existence, there is an infinite amount of time before that point that the thing has existed. This means that every point in time is an end point to eternity.

If you have some evidence that time existed before the big bang by all means present it.

It's pretty much the most solid inference there is in the freaking universe. Something has always existed, something could not appear out of nothing, although it can exist in a totally imaginary form, like the imaginary non-existence of time before the BB.

I asked for evidence not your assurances.

Something doesn't come from nothing. Nothing never existed.

 

[untermensche]

It has something to do with there being no last item.

In an infinite series it is also possible there is no first item, but none have a last item.

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The infinite series are the fractions between 1 and 2.

That infinite series does not end at 2.

2 is the upper limit.

But what is the highest fraction?

1.9, or is it 1.99, or 1.999999999999999999999?

What is the highest fraction? What is the end of the series? Not, what is the upper limit?

So you don't know what "inclusive" means???

The highest fraction between 1 and 2, inclusive, is 2/1. Similarly, the highest fraction between 1/4 and 1/2, inclusive, is 1/2.

Inclusive means to set a limit.

Inclusive means that 1 and 2 are included in the set.

But the infinite series between 1 and 2 are the fractions between 1 and 2. And that series has no highest member. Or lowest member.

The set was defined as the set of all real numbers between 1 and 2, inclusive. The highest fraction in that set is 2/1.

I asked for an infinite series that ends.

All you did was give me an infinite series with an upper and lower limit.

The infinite series of fractions between 1 and 2 does not end at 2.

Setting 2 as an upper limit is just pretending the series ends there.

You are pretending to have an answer.

 

[untermensche]

An infinite past has no defined start: it has always existed. Which means it has been around for an infinite amount of time.

Yes. I'm familiar with this brilliant argument. Time is infinite in the past because time is infinite in the past.

You don't seem to grasp that time in the past is time that has passed, so saying there is infinite time in the past is saying infinite time has already passed.

It is saying time without end has ended at every present moment.

Why is it so hard for some to understand that something that doesn't end can't have an end?

I asked for evidence not your assurances.

Something doesn't come from nothing. Nothing never existed.

I make no claims to know how time came about. I only know it is illogical to think it always existed.

If an infinite amount of time exists before any present moment in time then infinite time must have passed before any present moment in time. Time in the past is time that has passed. But infinite time never passes so it is impossible for there to have been infinite time before any present moment.

 

[Mageth]

It has something to do with there being no last item.

In an infinite series it is also possible there is no first item, but none have a last item.

- - - Updated - - -

The infinite series are the fractions between 1 and 2.

That infinite series does not end at 2.

2 is the upper limit.

But what is the highest fraction?

1.9, or is it 1.99, or 1.999999999999999999999?

What is the highest fraction? What is the end of the series? Not, what is the upper limit?

So you don't know what "inclusive" means???

The highest fraction between 1 and 2, inclusive, is 2/1. Similarly, the highest fraction between 1/4 and 1/2, inclusive, is 1/2.

Inclusive means to set a limit.

Inclusive means that 1 and 2 are included in the set.

But the infinite series between 1 and 2 are the fractions between 1 and 2. And that series has no highest member. Or lowest member.

The set was defined as the set of all real numbers between 1 and 2, inclusive. The highest fraction in that set is 2/1.

I asked for an infinite series that ends.

All you did was give me an infinite series with an upper and lower limit.

The infinite series of fractions between 1 and 2 does not end at 2.

The series of real numbers between 1 and 2, inclusive, ends at 2.

Setting 2 as an upper limit is just pretending the series ends there.

You are pretending to have an answer.

inclusive

The set of real numbers between 1/4 and 1/2, inclusive, ends at 1/2.

The set of real numbers between 1 and 2, inclusive, ends at 2.

The set of integers between 1 and 10, inclusive, ends at 10.

We can say it a different way; the set of all real numbers less than or equal to 2 ends at 2. Or the set of all integers less than or equal to 1 ends at 1.

Or the set of all real numbers greater than or equal to 1 and less than or equal to 2 ends at 2.

Or the set of all moments in the past (whether finite or infinite), inclusive of the present moment, ends at the present moment.

 

[Juma]

But infinite time never passes

It doesnt have to, if it has already.
Now, go and play wiyh your playthings.

 

[untermensche]

The set of real numbers between 1/4 and 1/2, inclusive, ends at 1/2.

You think setting a limit is the same thing as a series ending.

The series is 1/2... 1/3 ... 1/3.1 ... 1/3.9 ... 1/3.99999... 1/3.99999999999999 ...

The series has no highest value. Setting a limit that is never reached is not an end to an infinite series.

It is known that an infinite series can be bounded by a limit.

But that limit is never reached and it is not the highest value of the infinite series bounded by it.

 

[untermensche]

But infinite time never passes

It doesnt have to, if it has already.
Now, go and play wiyh your playthings.

This is nothing but saying;

Let's assume infinite time already passed in the past.

Now let's conclude, infinite time already passed in the past.

It isn't an argument of any kind.

 

[ryan]

But infinite time never passes

It doesnt have to, if it has already.

Imagine that you are this reference frame that you claim could have existed for an infinite amount of time. How could you have got to this point if you knew an infinitely long time ago that this point would never come?