• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Is Crypto dying or just dropping for the moment?

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?

  • The US economy
You mean our economy based on consumerism and service?? Purchased with either printed and borrowed paper????:confused:
The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
Taxation.
The is the one and only correct response! But fear not for the US government.... because taxation is the huge club. The IRS is going to make sure you and I use dollars whether we like them or not. Bitcoin will NEVER be used unless the IRS wants it. And they will put their boots on your neck and beat those dollars out of you if necessary.:beatdeadhorse:
 
What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world.
Well, the US also has the largest economy in the history of the world, so some perspective would help...

Here is a decent reference to government debt as a percent of GDP, with the US as #22. Japan, Greece and Italy are all significantly higher in this regard.

Ref: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp
 
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world.
Well, the US also has the largest economy in the history of the world, so some perspective would help...

Here is a decent reference to government debt as a percent of GDP, with the US as #22. Japan, Greece and Italy are all significantly higher in this regard.

Ref: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp

Japan, Greece and Italy are healthy, strong, and vibrant economies???
 
  • The US economy
You mean our economy based on consumerism and service?? Purchased with either printed and borrowed paper????:confused:
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.

You asked, don't cry over the answers. Of course, what it doesn't address is you ducking the question about the basis for the value of bitcoin? A pretend currency with a value that is dangerously volatile and more of a hedge to try and avoid taxes or security.
 
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world.
Well, the US also has the largest economy in the history of the world, so some perspective would help...

Here is a decent reference to government debt as a percent of GDP, with the US as #22. Japan, Greece and Italy are all significantly higher in this regard.

Ref: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp

Japan, Greece and Italy are healthy, strong, and vibrant economies???
Japan isn't doing so bad. Greece and Italy are in deeper waters because they don't have a national currency of their own and their debts are in Euro, so I wouldn't actually count them. But that list also has Canada being more indebted than the US.
 
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world.
Well, the US also has the largest economy in the history of the world, so some perspective would help...

Here is a decent reference to government debt as a percent of GDP, with the US as #22. Japan, Greece and Italy are all significantly higher in this regard.

Ref: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp

Japan, Greece and Italy are healthy, strong, and vibrant economies???
To answer your question: Of course some countries like Italy and Greece with high debt/GDP levels are not doing as well as the US. Venezuela is one of the worst and it shows.

However, Japan and Singapore compare favorably to the US. Again, you seem to struggle with perspective...

Now can you at least acknowledge that your comment was over the top?
 
Japan, Greece and Italy are healthy, strong, and vibrant economies???
To answer your question: Of course some countries like Italy and Greece with high debt/GDP levels are not doing as well as the US. Venezuela is one of the worst and it shows.

However, Japan and Singapore compare favorably to the US. Again, you seem to struggle with perspective...

Now can you at least acknowledge that your comment was over the top?
Oddly enough, he complains about American consumerism driving the American economy but then whines that the economy that lacks a bunch of consumerism in Japan isn't healthy.
 
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world.
Well, the US also has the largest economy in the history of the world, so some perspective would help...

Here is a decent reference to government debt as a percent of GDP, with the US as #22. Japan, Greece and Italy are all significantly higher in this regard.

Ref: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp

Japan, Greece and Italy are healthy, strong, and vibrant economies???

Greece and Italy are sub-economies, both being parts of the eurozone. They cannot reasonably be compared against the US economy.

If you wanted a fair comparison, you could look at how Greece compares to Alabama, or Italy to Texas. None of these polities have their own currency.

Japan's economy is doing fine. Whether it's also 'strong' depends on with whom you compare, and whether it's 'vibrant' depends on both the comparator and your preferred definition of 'vibrant'.
 
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.

You asked, don't cry over the answers. Of course, what it doesn't address is you ducking the question about the basis for the value of bitcoin? A pretend currency with a value that is dangerously volatile and more of a hedge to try and avoid taxes or security.

The US can never pay all its bondholders back in real terms. Perhaps in nominal terms but already past the point of no return being able to pay off debt in real terms. Which is precisely why bitcoin does have the demand it does. It is also why the central banks are buying gold, why Russia has dumped the dollar, and whyChina is now using the euro to purchase its oil. The rest of the world knows what is going on even if you don't.
 
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.
Musk was right. The dollar is even more of a pretend currency than bitcoin is(was).

Take away the ability to enslave the population paying taxes (which is their labor) in the dollar currency....and there would be a dollar crises tomorrow.
 
Now can you at least acknowledge that your comment was over the top?
Unfortunately I am quite serious. I will say this though, that I hope you are right and I am wrong.
 
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.

You asked, don't cry over the answers. Of course, what it doesn't address is you ducking the question about the basis for the value of bitcoin? A pretend currency with a value that is dangerously volatile and more of a hedge to try and avoid taxes or security.

The US can never pay all its bondholders back in real terms. Perhaps in nominal terms but already past the point of no return being able to pay off debt in real terms. Which is precisely why bitcoin does have the demand it does. It is also why the central banks are buying gold, why Russia has dumped the dollar, and whyChina is now using the euro to purchase its oil. The rest of the world knows what is going on even if you don't.

The financial institutions that continue buy the US bonds don't seem to see it the same way.
 
Yeah, that one. The one that also e produces getting closer to $2 trillion in exports in aerospace, industrial machinery, electronics, medical equipment, and agriculture. Nevermind the ridiculous amount of natural resources we have.

The difference though is that the stock market contains stocks of companies that are working. They are generating sales. Paying people. Paying vendors. Their value may be high (may be low) but they are generating concrete activity. They do not rely solely on appreciation. I have some stocks that don't appreciate much at all, only pay dividends. What backs up bitcoin?

What backs up the dollar?
  • The US paying its bonds/debt
Ha! What a laugh! The US has never paid off its bonds/debt in my lifetime! And $trillions more borrowed every year. Hockey stick trajectory. The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world!:rotfl::hysterical:
And it still pays its bondholders. The bonds mature, they are paid for, generally by more debt, but those bondholders keep coming back because we keep paying them. It seems perverse, but it is true and why the dollar is the top currency.
Musk was right. The dollar is even more of a pretend currency than bitcoin is(was).

Take away the ability to enslave the population paying taxes (which is their labor) in the dollar currency....and there would be a dollar crises tomorrow.

Great point. But unlike Bitcoin the value of dollar is tending to be the same day to day.
 
Looking back to the OP, Bitcoin had a dramatic fall from $59K in early May to $37K late that month. It slowly dropped to about $30K on July 20, then climbed back up to $50K in late August, and it is now staying there.

Other cryptocurrencies have had similar oscillations recently, though different in detail.

Bitcoin has a market capitalization of $941 billion, the champion among cryptocorrencies, and the next one is Ethereum, at $461 B.

The next ten are: Cardano at $94 B, Binance Coin at $82 B, Tether at $67 B, XRP at $60 B, Solana at $43 B ///, Dogecoin at $39 B, Polkadot at $33 B, USD Coin at $28 B, Uniswap at $18 B, and Litecoin at $14 B

The 100th on the list has a market cap of $1 billion and the 1000th $10 million.

Something I could do some time is copy out the numbers and then look for trends, like a power law as a function of number in sequence.

Market cap = (amount in circulation) * (price per unit)
 
Now can you at least acknowledge that your comment was over the top?
Unfortunately I am quite serious. I will say this though, that I hope you are right and I am wrong.

You hope I am right about what? That you seem to have trouble with perspective?

My point that still seems lost to you is that, by your shouting from the roof top a phrase detached from any real perspective, it negates any point you may be trying to make. You seem to be making a big deal out of the US having the 'largest debt in the history of the world', like that in itself is really really important. I would guess that this is some big deal being made in something you've read or watched by someone like PCR's, and are repeating it here.

I have my concerns about the worlds leading central banks ballooning their balance sheets with all sorts of stuff via created money over the last 2 crisis's and government debt levels. I tend to read Doug Noland for my fear factor, but he isn't shrill nor thinks a collapse is going to happen say next year, and he is loaded with real facts. But I don't only read his POV, nor his long term version of 'the end is nigh'. John Mauldin puts out a interesting regular email opinion piece with a long term positive outlook, while still concerned about debt growth.

But first one needs to at least get the basic data right, and especially relative to everything else. As it is an online PDF, I have referenced it below, instead of trying to quote it. But even in the relative terms of other economies, the US and FR are hardly the dirtiest of shirts. If 'the end is nigh' as you imply with your shrill sentences, then it most likely will appear in other parts of the world. One other thing about the US debt levels, the US debt is still below where we were at from the end of WWII, for now at least. Even when we cross that percentage number, it is certainly not the same world as when WWII ended. The US is not on the gold standard, and probably has more financial flexibility due to that. As I have already shown, a whole potpourri of other countries have worse government debt to GDP levels. Another interesting aspect of how things are going is central bank holdings. If one looks at central bank holdings as a percentage of their respective national GDP, the US again is much better off than Japan or the ECB (see figure 5 in PDF below). At the same time, IMO this is a significant experiment with fiat money and massive central bank currency injections in human history. I'm not trying to tell you how it will all end up in 10-20 years, partly as I have no idea...as this is tangential to this crypto subject thread I'll stop here.


Ref: https://www.yardeni.com/pub/peacockfedecbassets.pdf
 
Now can you at least acknowledge that your comment was over the top?
Unfortunately I am quite serious. I will say this though, that I hope you are right and I am wrong.

You hope I am right about what?
That the US dollar in not headed into oblivion.

You seem to be making a big deal out of the US having the 'largest debt in the history of the world', like that in itself is really really important.
It is not only important to myself but it has been and continues to be important to many others as well. Bitcoin did not just spring up out of no where because it was good for the criminals. It was invented to be a stable hold of wealth that could not be financially manipulated by anyone or any government. And the perceived irresponsible management of the fed is the single most important reason people invest in bit coin today. Without said FEAR of the dollar the price of bitcoin would be lower by orders of magnitude.
I have my concerns about the worlds leading central banks ballooning their balance sheets with all sorts of stuff via created money over the last 2 crisis's and government debt levels. I tend to read Doug Noland for my fear factor, but he isn't shrill nor thinks a collapse is going to happen say next year, and he is loaded with real facts. But I don't only read his POV, nor his long term version of 'the end is nigh'. John Mauldin puts out a interesting regular email opinion piece with a long term positive outlook, while still concerned about debt growth.
Thank you for sharing. I will give both of these guys a read.
But first one needs to at least get the basic data right, and especially relative to everything else. As it is an online PDF, I have referenced it below, instead of trying to quote it. But even in the relative terms of other economies, the US and FR are hardly the dirtiest of shirts. If 'the end is nigh' as you imply with your shrill sentences, then it most likely will appear in other parts of the world. One other thing about the US debt levels, the US debt is still below where we were at from the end of WWII, for now at least.Ref: https://www.yardeni.com/pub/peacockfedecbassets.pdf
From your own reference the fact everyones total assets are rising like a hockey stick excepting for China is very telling. And there is no sense of urgency from our leaders this will change. If anything, it looks more likely the hockey stick will become more vertical with each coming year.
Even when we cross that percentage number, it is certainly not the same world as when WWII ended. The US is not on the gold standard, and probably has more financial flexibility due to that. As I have already shown, a whole potpourri of other countries have worse government debt to GDP levels.
The central bankers are clearly working with each other and that may buy some time.
I'm not trying to tell you how it will all end up in 10-20 years, partly as I have no idea...as this is tangential to this crypto subject thread I'll stop here.
It looks like a lot of financial engineering with smoke and mirrors to me. And it looks that way to the bitcoin investors too. What everyone wants to forget is that you can not wave a financial wand and be well off unless you steal from someone else or actually add real value to your economy. Our service economy of lawyers, bar tenders, government and restaurant workers is certainly not going to keep our standard of living high. Without the actual production of real consumable goods, with the manufacturing we need (and once had), it is only matter of time for real producers of the world (China) to no longer take dollars for their production.

But like I said before I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong. I am from the baby boomer generation and hoping for a non drama style retirement. The last thing I need to see right now is a complete failure of all my US dollar denominated assets.
 
You hope I am right about what?
That the US dollar in not headed into oblivion.
Well, I didn't say that, but I would agree. The dollar may fall as compared to some other currencies substantially at some future timeframe. But it will not more go into oblivion than the British Pound did 70 some years ago.

You seem to be making a big deal out of the US having the 'largest debt in the history of the world', like that in itself is really really important.
It is not only important to myself but it has been and continues to be important to many others as well. Bitcoin did not just spring up out of no where because it was good for the criminals. It was invented to be a stable hold of wealth that could not be financially manipulated by anyone or any government. And the perceived irresponsible management of the fed is the single most important reason people invest in bit coin today. Without said FEAR of the dollar the price of bitcoin would be lower by orders of magnitude.
I'd say crypto currencies rose largely out of the reality that technological improvements allowed for the advent of them more than anything. But w/o these crypto currencies, the value of gold probably would have risen much higher in the last 2 years.

I have my concerns about the worlds leading central banks ballooning their balance sheets with all sorts of stuff via created money over the last 2 crisis's and government debt levels. I tend to read Doug Noland for my fear factor, but he isn't shrill nor thinks a collapse is going to happen say next year, and he is loaded with real facts. But I don't only read his POV, nor his long term version of 'the end is nigh'. John Mauldin puts out a interesting regular email opinion piece with a long term positive outlook, while still concerned about debt growth.
Thank you for sharing. I will give both of these guys a read.
Doug Noland has been at this for over 20 years with the same Bubble message, but he also hasn't claimed that things would implode anytime soon. He puts out a weekly summary that is interesting:
http://creditbubblebulletin.blogspot.com/p/credit-bubble-bulletin.html

To read John Mauldin's regular stuff you have to sign up for emails, and he does soft sell various financial investment services, so be aware:
https://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts

On the other side, I like to read Prof. Barry Eichengreen, though he doesn't put out a lot. He also publishes in a good site called Project Syndicate.
https://eml.berkeley.edu/~eichengr/reviews.shtml
https://www.project-syndicate.org/


But first one needs to at least get the basic data right, and especially relative to everything else. As it is an online PDF, I have referenced it below, instead of trying to quote it. But even in the relative terms of other economies, the US and FR are hardly the dirtiest of shirts. If 'the end is nigh' as you imply with your shrill sentences, then it most likely will appear in other parts of the world. One other thing about the US debt levels, the US debt is still below where we were at from the end of WWII, for now at least.Ref: https://www.yardeni.com/pub/peacockfedecbassets.pdf
From your own reference the fact everyones total assets are rising like a hockey stick excepting for China is very telling. And there is no sense of urgency from our leaders this will change. If anything, it looks more likely the hockey stick will become more vertical with each coming year.
But my own reference only contained a partial picture, as I was dealing with what you focused upon. China's total private/public debt isn't in any better shape than the US. See the first interactive chart (Total debt-to-GDP ratios in major economies) in the below reference. The US, China, and the EU are all around 290% for total debt of all types.

Ref: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/china-economy-charts-show-how-much-debt-has-grown.html

Even when we cross that percentage number, it is certainly not the same world as when WWII ended. The US is not on the gold standard, and probably has more financial flexibility due to that. As I have already shown, a whole potpourri of other countries have worse government debt to GDP levels.
The central bankers are clearly working with each other and that may buy some time.
I'm not trying to tell you how it will all end up in 10-20 years, partly as I have no idea...as this is tangential to this crypto subject thread I'll stop here.
It looks like a lot of financial engineering with smoke and mirrors to me. And it looks that way to the bitcoin investors too. What everyone wants to forget is that you can not wave a financial wand and be well off unless you steal from someone else or actually add real value to your economy. Our service economy of lawyers, bar tenders, government and restaurant workers is certainly not going to keep our standard of living high. Without the actual production of real consumable goods, with the manufacturing we need (and once had), it is only matter of time for real producers of the world (China) to no longer take dollars for their production.

But like I said before I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong. I am from the baby boomer generation and hoping for a non drama style retirement. The last thing I need to see right now is a complete failure of all my US dollar denominated assets.
I have to say that what the central bankers are doing is unsettling to me as they have gone into uncharted territory. However, what so many critics of these modern adventures seem to ignore is the extreme jolts governments and economies had when it was all tied to physical things like gold and silver. Spain once was a very dominant world power. They accumulated vast amounts of gold, and it blew up in their face in a big way. (the short version)

I don't see any 'failure' of the dollar in the future, but sure anything is possible. I won't be eligible for full SS until 2030, so I figure that is when it will hit its funding wall if Congress does nothing. But even that isn't the end. Worst case would be a 20-25% reduction in benefits, but that again assumes that the Congressional Critters do absolutely nothing.
 
But my own reference only contained a partial picture, as I was dealing with what you focused upon. China's total private/public debt isn't in any better shape than the US. See the first interactive chart (Total debt-to-GDP ratios in major economies) in the below reference. The US, China, and the EU are all around 290% for total debt of all types.

Ref: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/china-economy-charts-show-how-much-debt-has-grown.html

It pretty much hasn't made the western news but China has been seizing assets from the rich recently, and it's reaching down. It's not just a crackdown on big tech.
 
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