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Is it possible to doubt you are experiencing?

Just for the fuckyou of it...

Color is not just an experience.

Yes, it is.

It is something created from experience.

Equivocation. It is an experience triggered by a stimulus.

A transformation of one experience into something else.

False. An experience triggered by a stimulus, where "experience" is defined as "a unique association of various previous like events to the current circumstances."

If the brain experiences what is it creating colors for?

Category error. The stimulus of a particular wavelength triggers a unique association of various previous like events to the current circumstances, which produces the experience in the brain of "red ball number 4,890 dated 12/4/2018."
 
We have no reason to think a "mind" even exists at all!

Of course we do.

It is called color and sound and pain and all these things that are transformations of one kind of information into something completely different.

There is no reason for a brain that just experienced some stimulation to transform that stimulation into something else if the brain is the experiencer.

If the brain is an experiencer it does not need to change the experience it just had into a completely different kind of experience.

There would be no reason to do it.

If a brain transforms an already had experience into some completely different kind of experience it is reasonable to conclude it is doing it because the brain is not experiencing the original experience, what is called stimulation.

The stimulus of a particular wavelength triggers a unique association of various previous like events to the current circumstances..

In other words the brain acts reflexively without contemplation.

And red is not an association with something in the world.

It has no inherent association with some wavelength in the world.

The wavelength is a stimulus for the brain to create something that has nothing to do with the wavelength.

It is an evolutionary contingency that a brain associates reflexively some wavelength with color.

It is not a necessary association and red has nothing to do with the stimulation beyond it's creation is caused by the stimulation.

Colors are features of minds, not the world.
 
We have no reason to think a "mind" even exists at all!

Of course we do.

You and I evidently have different definitions of "reason."

It is called color and sound and pain and all these things that are transformations of one kind of information into something completely different.

You mean categories of different types of external stimuli that in turn trigger our capacity for associative problem solving metrics?

There is no reason for a brain that just experienced some stimulation to transform that stimulation into something else if the brain is the experiencer.

Category error. The stimulation triggers associations of previous like stimulations, which in turn combine with the current set of circumstances to form a unique new set of ALL (or near all) set of like circumstances/events/feelings/etc., that make up an "experience" for the brain, or, more accurately series of ongoing, always updating animation of experiences that all constantly flow and flux and update and degrade in a whirl of process identical in form to an animated film that creates the illusion of progression/continuity, because that continuity was found to assist us in survival.

If the brain is an experiencer

It is.

it does not need to change the experience it just had into a completely different kind of experience.

It doesn't, unless you are under the impression that a stimulus in a skin cell or nerve in the leg is the total sum of any such "experience."

There would be no reason to do it.

See? We clearly have different definitions of the term.

If a brain transforms an already had experience

It doesn't, necessarily. The process of triggering is evidently what results in an initial stimulus packet of information being associated with other like stimulus packages (and their ancillary associations as well) being added to along the way until at some nexus point this new stimulus package is packed away as no longer new and is replaced by another different stimulus package, ALL of which in the hunt for red october (survival; or, better, optimally beneficial outcome). Add, rinse, repeat until death do you part.

it is reasonable to conclude it is doing it because the brain is not experiencing the original experience, what is called stimulation.

And now that this is in its proper context, I agree. It is reasonable to conclude that by the time any external stimulus relayed by the body to the higher processing centers of the body--aka, the "brain" in a collective sense, but not necessarily limited to just that which is in our skulls--would have additional information added to the original stimulus package (as well as some information removed from it) before it reached an apex of information processing--that we refer to as an "experience"--and it gets replaced by the next package.

ETA: Though, technically, the "apex" of any given stimulus package (aka, "experience") is something that we refer to just after the apex (ie., in retrospect), once the totality of the circumstances that make up the experience have passed. For example, a car crash. Usually the "experience" of a car crash comes just after the collected stimulus (and all the associations they trigger) of the car crashing.

So, "experience" is really more of a cataloguing process of stimulus/information/associations that arose at a given point and due to specific circumstances and only just after it has all been processed, but I suppose that all depends on the nature of the experience (aka, stimulus trigger/association package).
 
REGARDLESS of the above, we have very clearly gone far away from your OP:

I experience the sunset.

I experience the cool breeze.

I experience the warm touch.

Is it possible to doubt I am experiencing what I am experiencing?

Yes.

How is it possible to doubt I am experiencing what I am experiencing?

Previous experiences where you thought you were experiencing a sunset, but were not; such as after drinking to access; taking hallucinogenic drugs; dreaming; delusions; sleep deprivation; etc.
 
If a brain transforms an already had experience

It doesn't, necessarily.

Yes it does.

Color has no connection to some wavelength in the world.

Color is something invented somehow.

It has no connection to anything in the world.

It can be stimulated to be created by a reflexive brain by something in the world however.
 
REGARDLESS of the above, we have very clearly gone far away from your OP:

I experience the sunset.

I experience the cool breeze.

I experience the warm touch.

Is it possible to doubt I am experiencing what I am experiencing?

Yes.

How is it possible to doubt I am experiencing what I am experiencing?

Previous experiences where you thought you were experiencing a sunset, but were not; such as after drinking to access; taking hallucinogenic drugs; dreaming; delusions; sleep deprivation; etc.

Again you twist for some reason.

The question is not about what you think about past experiences and how a mind could turn it into that is amazing.

The question is about experiencing the setting sun.

Is it possible to rationally conclude you are not experiencing the setting sun as you are experiencing it?
 
If a brain transforms an already had experience

It doesn't, necessarily.

Yes it does.

No, it doesn't, necessarily. If some stimulus triggers an association, that is not necessarily a collection of organs we call "brain" transforming an already had experience in any active or volitional sense. As you are fond of saying, it could easily be a reflexive function, but even if that were the case, all the "brain" would be doing is adding new information to a set of older information. That does not necessarily entail transformation of the older information, but I grant its a fine point and don't really care to fight for it.

Color has no connection to some wavelength in the world.

If by that you mean, "color" is not a part of the wavelength stimulus received by the eyes, I agree. It is, however, something the brain associates with the particular wavelength. Iow, "color" is nothing more than a categorizing function and that really only in regard to communication.

Color is something invented somehow.

Not "somehow." It's a categorizing function born from the many different wavelengths of visible light.

It has no connection to anything in the world.

It is directly connected to the refraction of light that penetrates our retinae and triggers various sensor "cones."

It can be stimulated to be created by a reflexive brain by something in the world however.

Congratulations. You've just discovered categorization.
 
Again you twist for some reason.

I didn't twist anything. Did it ever occur to you that because English is not your first language (presumably), that it is you who might be doing the twisting?

Case in point:

The question is not about what you think about past experiences and how a mind could turn it into that is amazing.

I didn't think it was.

The question is about experiencing the setting sun.

Uh huh. So the content of the experience, which, in this case is an objectively true event, "setting sun."

Is it possible to rationally conclude you are not experiencing the setting sun as you are experiencing it?

And the answer, once again, is yes, it is possible to rationally conclude that you are not experiencing an objectively true event as you are nevertheless (evidently) experiencing it. That's the hard problem.

Now contrast that with another possible question that could arise from your original one:

Is it possible to rationally conclude you are not experiencing a subjective experience as you are experiencing a subjective experience?

Because that is properly phrased--and tautological--then I would say no, it is not possible to rationally conclude that you are not experiencing a subjective experience as you are experiencing a subjective experience.

But all that gets us is cogito, ergo sum, so, again, IF that is what you've been after this whole time, you haven't moved the needle at all, just once again regurgitated Descartes.
 
It is, however, something the brain associates with the particular wavelength.

Where does color come from if the brain does not create it?

"Color" is just a categorization function of language. The brain processes multiple wavelengths of light and assigns them different words like "green" and "flooble" and "bibiliidlengjlalj" if it wants to, but the colors are nothing more than labels assigned to wavelengths for the purposes of communication between humans.

If you were born on a planet all alone, you may not have any need to label anything around you, but that wouldn't stop your brain from making categories of things it observes and/or experiences. It's a pretty simple concept.

There is no inherent association of color with anything.

Again, it's not "inherent"; it's a categorization function. Do you not know what a category is because you make an alarming number of category errors, so perhaps that's a clue?
 
Is it possible to rationally conclude you are not experiencing the setting sun as you are experiencing it?

And the answer, once again, is yes, it is possible to rationally conclude that you are not experiencing an objectively true event as you are experiencing it.

That's not close to the question and can't rationally be inferred to be the question.

"True event" is a conclusion about an experience, not the experience.

The question is about the experience, not any conclusions made about the experience.

The experience itself.

The experience of a setting sun.

Is it possible to doubt you are experiencing a setting sun when you are experiencing a setting sun?

We all know what the experience of a setting sun is.

Those of us that can see.

If you are blind that might explain things.
 
"Color" is just a categorization function of language....

Absolute nonsense.

Color is something experienced.

And there would be no reason for a brain to transform the light it already experienced into something else to experience. If the brain were an experiencer.

Wasted energy. Violates biological principles. Biological organisms do not waste energy doing things that are not needed to be done at all.

You have no argument.
 
"Color" is just a categorization function of language....

Absolute nonsense.

Color is something experienced.

And there would be no reason for a brain to transform the light it already experienced into something else to experience. If the brain were an experiencer.

Wasted energy. Violates biological principles. Biological organisms do not waste energy doing things that are not needed to be done at all.

You have no argument.

One word for you:
synesthesia

Yes, it is a thing. When you say "there would be no reason for a brain to transform the light it already experienced into something else to experience" you are imputing motives to a organ rather than to an organism. There may be "no reason for the brain" to do something, but that doesn't keep it from happening.
 
"Color" is just a categorization function of language....

Absolute nonsense.

Color is something experienced.

And there would be no reason for a brain to transform the light it already experienced into something else to experience. If the brain were an experiencer.

Wasted energy. Violates biological principles. Biological organisms do not waste energy doing things that are not needed to be done at all.

You have no argument.

One word for you:
synesthesia

Yes, it is a thing. When you say "there would be no reason for a brain to transform the light it already experienced into something else to experience" you are imputing motives to a organ rather than to an organism. There may be "no reason for the brain" to do something, but that doesn't keep it from happening.

It is totally wasted energy to do it in the first place.

A brain that experiences would never have a need to transform something it just experienced into something totally different to experience.

A mind would need something completely different.

Synesthesias occur for reasons, not for no reason. They are dysfunctions of normal mechanisms. A dysfunction is a reason for something happening.

And all they demonstrate is the fact that these things we experience are arbitrary creations.

The brain could turn the same stimulation into pain or into the color red.

It all depends on evolutionary contingencies.

Red is an experience in the mind.

It exists nowhere else.
 
"Color" is just a categorization function of language....

Absolute nonsense.

Are you on crack or something?

Color is something experienced.

What PRECISELY do you mean by that? Until you exhaustively detail exactly what you mean, it's just you chasing your own petulant little tail.

Here is my detail: A particular wavelength of visible light refracts through the eyes' retinae, triggering various color/light cones. This information--along with about a decillion other bits of sensory information constantly being transmitted by the body to the higher cognitive processing organs--triggers other stored associations (one of which is the label of "red" given by the brain to the particular wavelength), which in turn triggers other stored associations with the label "red" that all combine into a new "experience" of "Red at time T of 12/4/2018 PLUS Most Previous Experiences of Red at times T-Z" (or the like).

This new total package of information is in turn given a categorization "stamp" and then stored.

That's how "color" is "experienced" by the brain.

And there would be no reason for a brain to transform the light it already experienced into something else to experience.

Once again, it does not necessarily "tranform" anything--in an active, volitional sense--as the stimulus causes/dictates various associations to be recalled and combined with the new information to form a new set of circumstances. Aka, a New Experience of Red, or whatever the fuck the brain wants to label the new conglomeration of old and new circumstances/information/past experiences.

Again, in spite of how incredibly complicated it all actually is, in concept, it's not that complicated. New stimulus triggers like past experiences associated with particular stimulus and voila, you have a new set of experiences (both old and new) for the brain to process.

If the brain were an experiencer.

It is. What it experiences, however, is not just ONE set of strict and discrete variables. By the time anything travels the nervous system and shoots around through the various organs that make up the brain, a shit ton of other variables have been added (and subtracted), all whirling around in an experience soup that some other part of the brain (most likely the neocortex) then gives some final polish on and labels this NEW set of associations "Red at Time T PLUS" and away it gets filed until the next time the particular wavelength triggers another round of information pachinko.

Are you just willfully blind to any other discipline because it doesn't serve your assertive purposes?
 
untermensche said:
It is totally wasted energy to do it in the first place.

Wrong. It serves to help the brain navigate an optimally beneficial outcome. By processing all previously associated like categories, the brain can assess whether or not the current stimulus represents something threatening or benign or beneficial or detrimental, etc., etc., etc.

If it did NOT rapidly process through all of the previous instances--"experiences"--of the particular stimulus, then it could be killed or maimed or otherwise imperiled. Thus is must ALWAYS process as many previous associations as possible--or deemed necessary by other conditions--or else suffer dire consequences.

Again, this is pretty fucking basic shit.
 
One word for you:
synesthesia

Yes, it is a thing. When you say "there would be no reason for a brain to transform the light it already experienced into something else to experience" you are imputing motives to a organ rather than to an organism. There may be "no reason for the brain" to do something, but that doesn't keep it from happening.

It is totally wasted energy to do it in the first place.

A brain that experiences would never have a need to transform something it just experienced into something totally different to experience.

It happens. Get over it.
 
Once again, it does not necessarily "tranform" anything

Absolute nonsense.

Light energy is not color.

If a brain reflexively produces a color based on the information from light energy then that is a transformation of one thing into something completely different.

If the brain is the experiencer you have not given any reason for this transformation to occur.

- - - Updated - - -

One word for you:
synesthesia

Yes, it is a thing. When you say "there would be no reason for a brain to transform the light it already experienced into something else to experience" you are imputing motives to a organ rather than to an organism. There may be "no reason for the brain" to do something, but that doesn't keep it from happening.

It is totally wasted energy to do it in the first place.

A brain that experiences would never have a need to transform something it just experienced into something totally different to experience.

It happens. Get over it.

Worthless.

Shows a lack of knowledge of biology.

Biological organisms do not expend energy for no purpose.

Energy is most essential.
 
untermensche said:
It is totally wasted energy to do it in the first place.

Wrong. It serves to help the brain navigate an optimally beneficial outcome.

No information is gained.

One kind of information is transformed into something else that is experienced.

There is no reason for it to happen if the brain is the experiencer.

If the mind and brain are the same experiencer why is the mind completely unaware of this transformation and only knows the final product?

Why does the mind only know color if the mind and brain are the same thing?
 
untermensche said:
It is totally wasted energy to do it in the first place.

Wrong. It serves to help the brain navigate an optimally beneficial outcome.

No information is gained.

Nonsense. Red, for example, is associated with a stop light. When driving and you see a red light, your brain processes all of the previous experiences/associations with that particular red light and instructs the foot to apply the brake accordingly, thereby saving your life, or to note that the red light is merely the brake light of the car in the lane next to you, and therefore not applicable, thereby indirectly saving your life, etc., etc., etc.

Tremendous information is gained.

If the mind

Prove there is a mind or stfu. Until and unless you can satisfactorily prove to anyone else that there is a "mind," you are required to only us the term "brain." Full stop.

Enough with indulging your petulant assertions Bübchen.
 
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